History of Green Line services?

[Daniel740]

Hello I'm looking for any websites, books or general information that cover the history of Green Line services in and around London, I'm particularly interested in the lettered services that operated in the 30's. Thanks!

 

[duncombec]

It's really very old now, but there are copies available second-hand (I saw three at the same rally a couple of years ago!), but a good book is "Green Line" by A. McCall. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Green-Line-History-Londons-Country/dp/0904568261).

I remember this as being one of the first, if not the first bus book I ever read, by virtue of it being virtually the only one in my local library!

 

[Chris 76]

There's a lot of London Country/Green Line history online, but mostly covering the post World War 2 period. You're more likely to find stuff about individual routes since earlier times by looking for local history websites for the towns and areas served by Green Line, and sites about LT/London Country garages, bus and coach types etc.
http://www.amersham.org.uk/londoncountry/ http://www.chelsham-garage.co.uk/

 

[Busaholic]

Best book on history of Green Line IMO is Laurie Akehurst's 'London Transport Green Line: a History' published by Capital Transport in 2005. A brief scan confirms s/h copies available at reasonable prices thru usual sources.

 

[Statto]

Does anyone know what the driver shifts were like on the Green Line?

I can't imagine drivers driving the bus end to end like 708 Aylesbury-East Grinstead when some of the routes took 3 to 4 hours to complete one journey, the orbital 724/725/726 be interesting where the drivers changed on those routes too?

 

[Busaholic]

Does anyone know what the driver shifts were like on the Green Line?

I can't imagine drivers driving the bus end to end like 708 Aylesbury-East Grinstead when some of the routes took 3 to 4 hours to complete one journey, the orbital 724/725/726 be interesting where the drivers changed on those routes too?

They most certainly did drive end to end, and back again after a suitable break. Don't forget, London Transport Country Area Buses/London Country had no garages within the Central Buses area (with the sole exception of Romford) although there was an element of control at Victoria, Eccleston Bridge, through which most routes passed.

 

[PeterC]

Does anyone know what the driver shifts were like on the Green Line?

I can't imagine drivers driving the bus end to end like 708 Aylesbury-East Grinstead when some of the routes took 3 to 4 hours to complete one journey, the orbital 724/725/726 be interesting where the drivers changed on those routes too?

Its a long time since I travelled the whole route on the first ever 724. Coaches were based at the ends of the route at Romford and Wycombe and my failing memory doesn't include a driver change.

 

[Roger1973]

Again, yes - on the cross London routes (or the orbital routes) a driver (or crew) duty was usually one return journey, with a meal break at the other end.

Think that there were one or two routes where this didn't quite work and there were one or two duties a day that just did the outer end of a route (and therefore changed coach several times) - Tring to Aylesbury may have been one but I'm not certain of this.

Think it also got slightly complicated on the 725 as well, as Gravesend - Windsor made for too long a duty (possibly only after it went OPO) so breaks could be at Dartford or Staines.

On routes that didn't cross London, a day's work would be two return journeys to London - this might also be the case on relief coaches, although at one time, weekday peak time relief coaches to central London (and some coaches on the Essex routes) were parked at an inner London (red bus) garage (I'm aware of Bow, New Cross and Stockwell being used for this - there were probably others) rather than working in service back to the outer end.

Agree about the book recommendations above.

Would also recommend this personal website - quite a lot of it, but worth the time, recollections of a woman conductor who started on the trams in 1941 and went to Staines Garage in the 1950s - including some years on Green Line.

 

[Statto]

Cheers for that, i would have thought driver changers would have been at Victoria, then driver taken the coach back.

 

[30907]

Think it also got slightly complicated on the 725 as well, as Gravesend - Windsor made for too long a duty (possibly only after it went OPO) so breaks could be at Dartford or Staines.

I have aan indistinct visual memory (so RF era late 60s?) of a 725 timetable that had alternate workings terminating at Dartford and Staines, which sort-of fits.

 

[RT4038]

Again, yes - on the cross London routes (or the orbital routes) a driver (or crew) duty was usually one return journey, with a meal break at the other end.

Think that there were one or two routes where this didn't quite work and there were one or two duties a day that just did the outer end of a route (and therefore changed coach several times) - Tring to Aylesbury may have been one but I'm not certain of this.

Think it also got slightly complicated on the 725 as well, as Gravesend - Windsor made for too long a duty (possibly only after it went OPO) so breaks could be at Dartford or Staines.

On routes that didn't cross London, a day's work would be two return journeys to London - this might also be the case on relief coaches, although at one time, weekday peak time relief coaches to central London (and some coaches on the Essex routes) were parked at an inner London (red bus) garage (I'm aware of Bow, New Cross and Stockwell being used for this - there were probably others) rather than working in service back to the outer end.

Agree about the book recommendations above.

Would also recommend this personal website - quite a lot of it, but worth the time, recollections of a woman conductor who started on the trams in 1941 and went to Staines Garage in the 1950s - including some years on Green Line.

I don't think this is quite right. On some routes the crew worked the trip throughout, such as the 706 to Chelsham. They would take a break and then return with the next bus. Others, such as the 716/a the crew worked to Addlestone Garage and took their meal break, and a shuttle crew took the coach to Chertsey or Woking; Chelsham crews on the 706 did this at Tring Garage, with a shuttle crew going through to Aylesbury. Of course at certain times, instead of a shuttle crew, it could have been a Tring crew doing Tring-Aylesbury-Chelsham, The longest end to end journey time was about 3hr30.

As a rule, where the terminal was at the operating garage, the crews would have stepped back a coach (so Luton and Dorking on 714, Hertford, Windsor, Harlow, Chelsham, High Wycombe, Romford 724 etc). Where the terminus was beyond the operating garage(s), the far crew took the break at the opposite end garage and a shuttle crew [or an arrangement as shown above] would be scheduled ( Swanley - Wrotham on 719, Hatfield - Stevenage/Hitchin on 716/A, St. Albans - Dunstable on 713, Dunton Green-Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells on 704/5 etc.)

On your example of the 725, I think a Staines man might have been scheduled Staines-Windsor-Dartford, and a Dartford man Dartford-Gravesend-Staines. Either of these would have been well within the domestic duty spell of 5h30. [Either would have been about 4hr, so both ways would have made a nice shift!]. There are various permutations to fill an 8hr shift.

 

[PeterC]

Thinking about the 721 I don't remember buses standing in the street for crew changes outside RE the way they did outside NS. Just poor memory or did they work short at the end of the shift? Short workings from Brentwood to RE at the end of the day used to make meeting friends in a Brentwood pub very easy for a Romford teenager

 

[RT4038]

Thinking about the 721 I don't remember buses standing in the street for crew changes outside RE the way they did outside NS. Just poor memory or did they work short at the end of the shift? Short workings from Brentwood to RE at the end of the day used to make meeting friends in a Brentwood pub very easy for a Romford teenager

They must have changed over somewhere around RE garage during the day.

 

[MotCO]

I have aan indistinct visual memory (so RF era late 60s?) of a 725 timetable that had alternate workings terminating at Dartford and Staines, which sort-of fits.q

I have a photos of buses in service on the 725 alternating etween Windsor - Gravesend and Windsor -Dartford. I don't remember how they were split when the 725 was split as 725 to Windsor and 726 to Heathrow. I don't recall Staines terminators.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/68359129@N02/50413967171/in/datetaken/ SMA1 on 725 going to Dartford broken down at New Malden
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68359129@N02/50413277873/in/datetaken/ SMA 13 on 725 going to Gravesend at New Malden

My photos- apologies for the poor quality

 

[Busaholic]

Again, yes - on the cross London routes (or the orbital routes) a driver (or crew) duty was usually one return journey, with a meal break at the other end.

Think that there were one or two routes where this didn't quite work and there were one or two duties a day that just did the outer end of a route (and therefore changed coach several times) - Tring to Aylesbury may have been one but I'm not certain of this.

Think it also got slightly complicated on the 725 as well, as Gravesend - Windsor made for too long a duty (possibly only after it went OPO) so breaks could be at Dartford or Staines.

On routes that didn't cross London, a day's work would be two return journeys to London - this might also be the case on relief coaches, although at one time, weekday peak time relief coaches to central London (and some coaches on the Essex routes) were parked at an inner London (red bus) garage (I'm aware of Bow, New Cross and Stockwell being used for this - there were probably others) rather than working in service back to the outer end.

Agree about the book recommendations above.

Would also recommend this personal website - quite a lot of it, but worth the time, recollections of a woman conductor who started on the trams in 1941 and went to Staines Garage in the 1950s - including some years on Green Line.

The current edition of 'Classic Bus' magazine (not available online) has an article on the buses and coaches which have served the village of Wrotham in Kent over the years. Green Line lovers will be aware that this was the terminus of the 703 from Amersham before it was replaced by first the 717, then the 719 in the 1960s. It was certainly rather a remote place to terminate an hourly service that originated in Hemel Hempstead, particularly in the evening when any cafe/ tea room would almost certainly be closed. Happily, however, for at least one regular Hemel Hempstead driver, there was a welcoming pub where he took his layover before driving the last northbound 719 to its home at HH. I suspect other drivers, particularly the Swanley garage ones, might have done a rapid oos run back to SJ and return, even though it was in their own time.

 

[Com166]

The 701/702 passed Staines garage. My brother would often work a “swinger” where he would relieve the crew for them to have a meal break while he went to Ascot/Sunningdale and back. He would do this several times a day.

 

[Statto]

I have a couple of London Country timetable books from 1978 which include Green Line services, what strikes me is the Golden Rover day ticket £1.50 for adults valid on the whole London Country/Green Line network after 9am weekdays, all day weekend & Bank Holidays, what was the average wage back then as that seems pretty cheap for the areas that covered.

 

[RT4038]

The current edition of 'Classic Bus' magazine (not available online) has an article on the buses and coaches which have served the village of Wrotham in Kent over the years. Green Line lovers will be aware that this was the terminus of the 703 from Amersham before it was replaced by first the 717, then the 719 in the 1960s. It was certainly rather a remote place to terminate an hourly service that originated in Hemel Hempstead, particularly in the evening when any cafe/ tea room would almost certainly be closed. Happily, however, for at least one regular Hemel Hempstead driver, there was a welcoming pub where he took his layover before driving the last northbound 719 to its home at HH. I suspect other drivers, particularly the Swanley garage ones, might have done a rapid oos run back to SJ and return, even though it was in their own time.

The 719 was worked by Garston crews, and they were relieved at Swanley for their break. Breaks would not have been taken at Wrotham, where the layover was only 17 mins or so (Summer 1969 Green Line guide). However, a first portion of a late duty could be Garston-Wrotham-Swanley, so a visit to a pub in Wrotham could have been possible! (or even in Swanley?)

 

[Busaholic]

I don't think this is quite right. On some routes the crew worked the trip throughout, such as the 706 to Chelsham. They would take a break and then return with the next bus. Others, such as the 716/a the crew worked to Addlestone Garage and took their meal break, and a shuttle crew took the coach to Chertsey or Woking; Chelsham crews on the 706 did this at Tring Garage, with a shuttle crew going through to Aylesbury. Of course at certain times, instead of a shuttle crew, it could have been a Tring crew doing Tring-Aylesbury-Chelsham, The longest end to end journey time was about 3hr30.

As a rule, where the terminal was at the operating garage, the crews would have stepped back a coach (so Luton and Dorking on 714, Hertford, Windsor, Harlow, Chelsham, High Wycombe, Romford 724 etc). Where the terminus was beyond the operating garage(s), the far crew took the break at the opposite end garage and a shuttle crew [or an arrangement as shown above] would be scheduled ( Swanley - Wrotham on 719, Hatfield - Stevenage/Hitchin on 716/A, St. Albans - Dunstable on 713, Dunton Green-Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells on 704/5 etc.)
T
On your example of the 725, I think a Staines man might have been scheduled Staines-Windsor-Dartford, and a Dartford man Dartford-Gravesend-Staines. Either of these would have been well within the domestic duty spell of 5h30. [Either would have been about 4hr, so both ways would have made a nice shift!]. There are various permutations to fill an 8hr shift.

For a few years in the late 1960s and earky 70s, living in first Bromley then Beckenham, also working at Beck Library for a while, I saw loads of 725s and I think I noticed that eastbound DT coaches on the route never went beyond their home garage, whereas some ST ones did. Could be wrong on this, but it's a strong memory.

 

[RT4038]

For a few years in the late 1960s and earky 70s, living in first Bromley then Beckenham, also working at Beck Library for a while, I saw loads of 725s and I think I noticed that eastbound DT coaches on the route never went beyond their home garage, whereas some ST ones did. Could be wrong on this, but it's a strong memory.

Looking at the October 1969 timetable for the 725, I think you are quite right - the Dartford operated coaches did not go to Gravesend at all. Staines coaches would have worked on the Windsor-Dartford service, as well as the Windsor-Gravesend, along with Northfleet vehicles.

 

[Journeyman]

Although there were no Green Line operating bases in the Central Area, there were a handful of spare vehicles stationed in garages in central London in case of breakdowns. This continued well into London Country days.

 

[Busaholic]

Looking at the October 1969 timetable for the 725, I think you are quite right - the Dartford operated coaches did not go to Gravesend at all. Staines coaches would have worked on the Windsor-Dartford service, as well as the Windsor-Gravesend, along with Northfleet vehicles.

Glad I've not misremembered! It'll all be to do with union agreements on length of duties, and spells within those duties, of course: theoretical schedule efficiency was an art that L.T. were rightly proud of, but it was a very labour intensive operation and cost the earth! Those days are long gone, never to return.

Don't know whether this is a good juncture to bring this in, but in pre-omo days at least, if say you saw a Windsor garage coach on the 704/5 it didn't necessarily mean a Windsor crew was on it, could be a Dunton Green crew, and vice versa, and was scheduled this way. P.S. This was anathema to the red bus side, and shows how different they were in so many ways.

 

[RT4038]

Glad I've not misremembered! It'll all be to do with union agreements on length of duties, and spells within those duties, of course: theoretical schedule efficiency was an art that L.T. were rightly proud of, but it was a very labour intensive operation and cost the earth! Those days are long gone, never to return.

Don't know whether this is a good juncture to bring this in, but in pre-omo days at least, if say you saw a Windsor garage coach on the 704/5 it didn't necessarily mean a Windsor crew was on it, could be a Dunton Green crew, and vice versa, and was scheduled this way. P.S. This was anathema to the red bus side, and shows how different they were in so many ways.

Quite right. Green Line coaches often spent the night away in the 'far' depot, but the crews never did. On the 704/5 Dunton Green crews would take their break at Windsor Garage. Of course the buses didn't need a break, so could return after 15min or so, with the crew working a following departure, which could have been a Windsor bus. Depending on the timetable, most of the cross-London routes were like that, even in OMO days. This would have happened on the 725 as well.

Some Country bus routes also had a similar system; on the 321 (Luton-Uxbridge in overlapping sections) Garston buses overnighted at Luton and vice versa. The 301/2 (Aylesbury/H.Hempstead - Watford Heath/Little Bushey) and 330/A (H.Hempstead-St.Albans-Welwyn Garden City) were other examples.

With the shorter routes, higher frequencies and short turning possibilities of Central Area routes, I doubt the need for working on other garage's buses ever really arose.

 

[Busaholic]

Quite right. Green Line coaches often spent the night away in the 'far' depot, but the crews never did. On the 704/5 Dunton Green crews would take their break at Windsor Garage. Of course the buses didn't need a break, so could return after 15min or so, with the crew working a following departure, which could have been a Windsor bus. Depending on the timetable, most of the cross-London routes were like that, even in OMO days. This would have happened on the 725 as well.

Some Country bus routes also had a similar system; on the 321 (Luton-Uxbridge in overlapping sections) Garston buses overnighted at Luton and vice versa. The 301/2 (Aylesbury/H.Hempstead - Watford Heath/Little Bushey) and 330/A (H.Hempstead-St.Albans-Welwyn Garden City) were other examples.

With the shorter routes, higher frequencies and short turning possibilities of Central Area routes, I doubt the need for working on other garage's buses ever really arose.

The 150 strong Schedules Dept of 1970 would probably have needed another 50 staff (only slight exaggeration.) Those union agreements were set in stone, and knocking a couple of minutes off running time on a rounder to fit it within the rules could take a year to negotiate (not that I was ever involved with that, being way too junior.)

 

[RT4038]

The 150 strong Schedules Dept of 1970 would probably have needed another 50 staff (only slight exaggeration.) Those union agreements were set in stone, and knocking a couple of minutes off running time on a rounder to fit it within the rules could take a year to negotiate (not that I was ever involved with that, being way too junior.)

With a scheduled PVR of 6.900 at the end of 1969, 150 schedules staff sounds quite plausible in those days of manual scheduling. (The provincial company that I started with in 1974 had nine schedules staff for roughly 500 scheduled PVR).
With such rigid scheduling agreements the routes and timetables would tend to be constructed to fit them rather than passenger requirements; not that the more flexible situation in other bus companies necessarily produced much better tailoring to demand, just probably cheaper to run.

 

[Busaholic]

With a scheduled PVR of 6.900 at the end of 1969, 150 schedules staff sounds quite plausible in those days of manual scheduling. (The provincial company that I started with in 1974 had nine schedules staff for roughly 500 scheduled PVR).
With such rigid scheduling agreements the routes and timetables would tend to be constructed to fit them rather than passenger requirements; not that the more flexible situation in other bus companies necessarily produced much better tailoring to demand, just probably cheaper to run.

Absolutely right, and I soon discovered the work was not what I wanted to do - staff spent decades there, with little chance of advancement, and as a 21 year old at the start I found it stultifying. Luckily I had an ally in the youngish personnel guy in the dept., and over a period of a few weeks a new training programme was devised to encompass working in both bus and underground operating departments, the prospect of which excited me greatly, and so it was that in 1970 I became the first Traffic Operating trainee manager in the new GLC controlled L.T. and was immediately drafted to the Underground side. I'm afraid the impetuousity of youth still left me dissatisfied with what I considered antideluvian attitudes which were so entrenched in many who didn't want change, though it was inevitable, and I quit to join Camden Council in an exciting new job on the housing side.

 

[Seehof]

The RFs must have been incredibly reliable to operate such routes day after day. I don’t think I ever saw one broken down. I lived on and used the 706/707/708 and 719 routes as a child/teenager.

 

[Busaholic]

The RFs must have been incredibly reliable to operate such routes day after day. I don’t think I ever saw one broken down. I lived on and used the 706/707/708 and 719 routes as a child/teenager.

I never saw a broken down one either on Green Line services, but do recollect a few over the years on the intensively worked 227 service out of Bromley garege.

 

[30907]

I have a photos of buses in service on the 725 alternating etween Windsor - Gravesend and Windsor -Dartford. I don't remember how they were split when the 725 was split as 725 to Windsor and 726 to Heathrow. I don't recall Staines terminators.

Happy to be corrected.

I never saw a broken down one either on Green Line services, but do recollect a few over the years on the intensively worked 227 service out of Bromley garege.

GL workings were probably less demanding than the 227 (3 serious hill climbs as well as the traffic) - and I presume by modern standards an RF was pretty robust.

 

[Robertj21a]

The RFs must have been incredibly reliable to operate such routes day after day. I don’t think I ever saw one broken down. I lived on and used the 706/707/708 and 719 routes as a child/teenager.

Good solid heavy duty machines. Much like the double deck RT equivalent.