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Historical anomalies?

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30mog

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Sheffield to Glossop off-peak day return is 10p cheaper than Sheffield to Manchester, despite being valid via Manchester.

Barnsley to Gainsborough return 90p cheaper than Sheffield to Gainsborough but valid via Sheffield.

The savings are hardly eye opening. And regular users of this forum will know the above examples are typical of the nonsense sometimes found in our train fare system. What I wonder is. The journeys above could have been completed by more direct routes 50 years ago. Sheffield to Glossop via Woodhead and a change at Dinting possibly. And Barnsley to Gainsborough would have involved use of the direct line that used to cross the Dearne Valley to a connection at Doncaster.

Based on this. Is there any possibility some fares are still based on a mileage by more direct routes no longer available? At the other end of the argument though. A ticket between Matlock & Buxton shows no such favours.
 
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rishton82

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I went to university in Huddersfield, but quite often went for a night out in Leeds and a return to Headlingly was cheaper than one to Leeds.
 

kieron

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Based on this. Is there any possibility some fares are still based on a mileage by more direct routes no longer available? At the other end of the argument though. A ticket between Matlock & Buxton shows no such favours.
Sheffield-Glossop is unlikely to be for that reason. Comparing Sheffield-Glossop fares with Sheffield-Manchester ones suggests that the off-peak return to Glossop only became cheaper in 2011. Anytime returns and season tickets are cheaper between Sheffield and Manchester today.
 

maniacmartin

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This sort of thread is a TOC's dream come true! A free report of all anomalies to fix!
 

SickyNicky

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This sort of thread is a TOC's dream come true! A free report of all anomalies to fix!

Martin is correct. There is an abundant number of such anomolies, some of which can save quite staggering amounts. I myself am using one next week that saves £251 (without a discount), although one would never purchase the through ticket, of course.

The truth is that we won't be discussing these anomolies on a public forum like this because it's a sure-fire way to get them removed. Instead, anyone interested in such things is highly recommend to attend a "Fares Workshop". The thread is here.
 

ashworth

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Martin is correct. There is an abundant number of such anomolies, some of which can save quite staggering amounts. I myself am using one next week that saves £251 (without a discount), although one would never purchase the through ticket, of course.

The truth is that we won't be discussing these anomolies on a public forum like this because it's a sure-fire way to get them removed.

Yes, it really annoys me when people discuss these anomalies here. There seems to have been so many of them that have been available for years removed during the last year or two, often within weeks of them being discussed in these forums.
Every time I see an anomaly, that I use or are likely to use in the future, being discussed I just know it will very soon disappear. There's one I use regularly, that fortunately hasn't been mentioned here, and I'm keeping it to myself!
 

route:oxford

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Yes, it really annoys me when people discuss these anomalies here. There seems to have been so many of them that have been available for years removed during the last year or two, often within weeks of them being discussed in these forums.
Every time I see an anomaly, that I use or are likely to use in the future, being discussed I just know it will very soon disappear. There's one I use regularly, that fortunately hasn't been mentioned here, and I'm keeping it to myself!

Yet other anomalies are widely known and well used but nothing is done. A key one is "Banbury" and is often used by ticket office staff who are familiar with it when helping passengers with their travel arrangements.
 

SickyNicky

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Yet other anomalies are widely known and well used but nothing is done. A key one is "Banbury" and is often used by ticket office staff who are familiar with it when helping passengers with their travel arrangements.

If you're referring to splitting tickets at Banbury, you're right, it is well known. But you either lower the cost of the through ticket (unacceptable to CrossCountry) or you raise the cost of the split tickets (Banbury to Leamington, unacceptable to Chiltern, Banbury to Oxford, unacceptable to GWR).

Whilst you have short tickets priced by different companies to long tickets, there are always likely to be issues unless someone can find an acceptable algorithm to simplify prices. I invite anyone to try. If you do, Yorkie will be along soon with a set of questions you will need to answer :D
 

greatkingrat

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I'm surprised XC hasn't tried to take over the Oxford - Banbury flow as they provide the main service between those stations and the GW service is fairly sporadic.
 

yorkie

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The savings are hardly eye opening..
Not in your examples, but some are! ;)

This sort of matter is best discussed at a fares workshop or one of our forum events, such as our popular forum meals - and even then you may have to convince us you're not going to disclose the best deals so that Pricing Managers can put the fares up to 'fix' the anomalies! ;)

My best value tickets to get to Manchester keep getting withdrawn, the latest one was actually withdrawn because a forum member saw another forum member with a Season ticket, and reported the anomaly.

It is the mission of some people to eradicate anomalies where possible, and that nearly always means putting prices up, not down! I don't criticise anyone for doing their job conscientiously, but I do not want to make the job of increasing our fares easier by listing anomalies in this thread :lol:
 

Solent&Wessex

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My best value tickets to get to Manchester keep getting withdrawn, the latest one was actually withdrawn because a forum member saw another forum member with a Season ticket, and reported the anomaly.

It is the mission of some people to eradicate anomalies where possible, and that nearly always means putting prices up, not down! I don't criticise anyone for doing their job conscientiously, but I do not want to make the job of increasing our fares easier by listing anomalies in this thread :lol:

There are plenty of anomalies around, and plenty of ways of saving money on fares which aren't anomalies.

The first is split ticketing. This is fair game, I often recommend them to friends, and will sometimes go against the instructions from my superiors in recommending it in a professional capacity too. Split ticketing is fair game in my book, as long as people using the splits understand the restrictions which may be placed upon them by doing so, then there is no problem. These ways of saving money arise, as stated above, by different operators setting the fares for different journeys, and each operator having different policies.

The second way of saving money is created by starting or stopping short along the same line of route. Again, as long as any relevant restrictions are observed and the ability to start or stop short is allowed on the ticket being used, then these are fair game too. Again, these tend to arise due to different operators having different pricing policies over the same routes meaning fares change over time, or different ticket types with different restrictions are applicable.

Thirdly there are routing issues. These are where the only real anomalies lie in my view. There are two types of money saving routeing issues.
Firstly there are journeys where the cheaper fare is valid via a perfectly reasonable route which is relevant and sensible to the journey being made. I know of many of these too, and have suggested some to friends to use. I find it very hard to argue in support of getting these removed because the route is normally a perfectly reasonable, sensible, logical, practical, and indeed sometimes the only way, of doing the journey, but just happens to be cheaper than a fare for only part of the journey along the same route.
Secondly there are the only real anomalies as far as I am concerned, and these are routeing issues which allow tickets for journeys to be used on - quite frankly - ludicrous, illogical, unreasonable, highly circuitous routes which no one could even begin to argue as being sensible or reasonable for the journey on the ticket.

I am afraid the ticket you refer to fell into that category.

I have no objection to anybody using perfectly fair (in my view) and legal (i.e. conforms with NRCOC) methods of saving money, and whilst some would argue that using such completely bizarre routeings may be fair, I don't share that view I am afraid. Some are so completely bizarre that they are taking the p*ss a bit too much.

I know people will argue that nasty, greedy, money grabbing TOCs are the work of the devil, and how all possible methods should be used to save money, and if fares weren't so high in the first place it wouldn't be a problem (and I agree that many fares are too high, especially for certain TOCs or at peak times), but that doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with using some of the more obscure or unreasonable routeings.

I hope that makes sense.

Going back to the OP, no, I don't think anomalies as you mention are caused by historical mileage based fares, but more that over time different flows are priced by different TOCs, and even if they are priced by the same TOC sometimes some fares get overlooked at fare setting time if they are little used, and the busiest flows leap to the top of the screen when it comes to which ones shall get increased first. In the majority of cases TOCs have to keep all the fare changes within a very tight % to comply with the fare rise rules, so I am certain some little used flows get forgotten about.
 

yorkie

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Thirdly there are routing issues. These are where the only real anomalies lie in my view. There are two types of money saving routeing issues.
Firstly there are journeys where the cheaper fare is valid via a perfectly reasonable route which is relevant and sensible to the journey being made. I know of many of these too, and have suggested some to friends to use. I find it very hard to argue in support of getting these removed because the route is normally a perfectly reasonable, sensible, logical, practical, and indeed sometimes the only way, of doing the journey, but just happens to be cheaper than a fare for only part of the journey along the same route.
Secondly there are the only real anomalies as far as I am concerned, and these are routeing issues which allow tickets for journeys to be used on - quite frankly - ludicrous, illogical, unreasonable, highly circuitous routes which no one could even begin to argue as being sensible or reasonable for the journey on the ticket.

I am afraid the ticket you refer to fell into that category.
Indeed. I can't argue with that! :lol:

And yes, the ticket in question certainly did fall into that category. It probably won't surprise you to learn that many people used it while it was valid and hardly any of your colleagues queried it!
I have no objection to anybody using perfectly fair (in my view) and legal (i.e. conforms with NRCOC) methods of saving money, and whilst some would argue that using such completely bizarre routeings may be fair, I don't share that view I am afraid..
We will have to agree to disagree on that minor point; if it's valid under the T&Cs then that's all that really matters in my opinion. It's also obviously fair enough if the loophole, once discovered, gets closed and I would expect anyone doing their job conscientiously, such as yourself, to ensure these are removed.

However, people are obviously welcome to their opinions on the moral aspects of using a routeing that is bizarre (such as Newcastle-Carlisle being valid for many years via York, Leeds and Manchester :lol:)
 

Starmill

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Thirdly there are routing issues. These are where the only real anomalies lie in my view. There are two types of money saving routeing issues.
Firstly there are journeys where the cheaper fare is valid via a perfectly reasonable route which is relevant and sensible to the journey being made. I know of many of these too, and have suggested some to friends to use. I find it very hard to argue in support of getting these removed because the route is normally a perfectly reasonable, sensible, logical, practical, and indeed sometimes the only way, of doing the journey, but just happens to be cheaper than a fare for only part of the journey along the same route.
Secondly there are the only real anomalies as far as I am concerned, and these are routeing issues which allow tickets for journeys to be used on - quite frankly - ludicrous, illogical, unreasonable, highly circuitous routes which no one could even begin to argue as being sensible or reasonable for the journey on the ticket.

Isn't it curious that returning to the notion of any reasonable route would close these loopholes at a stroke? And yet there's rather a lot of opposition to that from your 'corner', and insistence on continuing with procedurally-defined permissions over which there is no oversight beyond pure commercial interests.

The only reason ridiculous anomalies come to light is because companies (your own rather more than most!) set comedically priced Off-Peak Single and Return prices. You want to stick with if it's valid it's valid? Fine. Reasonable doesn't come into it and hasn't for years.

I have no objection to anybody using perfectly fair (in my view) and legal (i.e. conforms with NRCOC) methods of saving money, and whilst some would argue that using such completely bizarre routeings may be fair, I don't share that view I am afraid. Some

Ah HA! I thought you might use the word 'fair'! Hahah yes, because some TOCs have headline fares that are very fair don't they! What's fair is whatever you decide it is, presumably? Nice try - you'll have to be more convincing than that.

Also you were quite correct that if the price of Manchester to York (a whopping £27.50 single) weren't so high, that particular item would never have come to light. Notice how there are almost no anomalies affecting flows priced by some TOCs?
 
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