Historic Question about Leyland PD2s and PD3s

[Wyrleybart]

Woncer if anyone on here is interested in the Leyland PD2s and PD3s - in particular the ones with the streamline noses. I am interested in creating a OO scale model of two of the Harpers of Heath Hayes fleet and trying to understand them. As I understand it Harper Brothers of Heath Hayes acquired six front engined "halfcab" Leyland buses in the early 1960s - three PDs and three PD3s.
According to Buslists o nthe web these vehicles were

SBF233 was delivered in January 1962, as PD2/28 with a Northern Counties body
HBA679D abd HBA680D were Leyland PD2A 27s fitted with Metro Cammel bodies
NRF349F was a Leyland PD3A/5 fitted with a Northern Counties body
LRF992F and LRF993F were PD3A/1 fitted with Northern Counties bodies.


From what I understand, apart from SBF233 these were described as "St Helens" fronts, which I suspect were moulded fibreglass. All six of these vehicles were qbsorbed into the Midland Red fleet when the Harper Brother sold the company. SBF233 was chopped into a recovery vehicle.

The first question I have concerns the suffix "A", which I understand from one internet source indicated the passenger door was at the front or rear. SBF233 had a rear door formed of four folding leaves. HBF679D and HBF680D also had a rear folding door. The other three Leylands all had the same folding rear door. These vehicles all seemed to have am oversized cab windscreen which broke up the cream or white band around the bus.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

AFAIK the "A" suffix denoted that the bus had the "St Helens" fibreglass front.

 

[GusB]

AFAIK the "A" suffix denoted that the bus had the "St Helens" fibreglass front.

Indeed it does. The Leyland Bus Mk 2 by A.D. Jack confirms that the A suffix was used to denote the St Helens front, as opposed to the "tin front" that was also used.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Indeed it does. The Leyland Bus Mk 2 by A.D. Jack confirms that the A suffix was used to denote the St Helens front, as opposed to the "tin front" that was also used.

Great. Thanks and to "Pyewipecarshed" too.
That is really helpful. I have a couple of cast whitemetal "tin fronts" in my collection of model bus bits, so need to crack on this winter.

Will have to keep an eye out for that book too "Gus". Thanks again.

 

[Belfastmarty]

Of course, just to confuse things, Edinburgh took a batch of 25 PD3As in 1966 which had their St Helens fronts replaced with the tin front style, but in fibreglass rather than metal.

 

[GusB]

Great. Thanks and to "Pyewipecarshed" too.
That is really helpful. I have a couple of cast whitemetal "tin fronts" in my collection of model bus bits, so need to crack on this winter.

Will have to keep an eye out for that book too "Gus". Thanks again.

It's quite a weighty tome, but I've found it to be a useful reference.

I wasn't 100% awake when I replied earlier this morning but I meant to add that the door position is unlikely to be mentioned in the chassis code*, but it will be indicated in the body/seating code.

For example, in the case of NRF349F that you mentioned in the opening post, this was specified as H40/32RD; the R denotes a rear entrance and the D denoted that platform doors were fitted.

* There may be exceptions. E.g., the Leyland National specified the number of doors but it was an integral vehicle.

Of course, just to confuse things, Edinburgh took a batch of 25 PD3As in 1966 which had their St Helens fronts replaced with the tin front style, but in fibreglass rather than metal.

Life is never that simple, is it?!

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Of course, just to confuse things, Edinburgh took a batch of 25 PD3As in 1966 which had their St Helens fronts replaced with the tin front style, but in fibreglass rather than metal.

And to confuse things even further SBF 233 was fitted with a St Helens front as part of its recovery vehicle conversion!

 

[Wyrleybart]

And to confuse things even further SBF 233 was fitted with a St Helens front as part of its recovery vehicle conversion!

That is interesting.
Leads to my next question. AIUI Leyland supplied the powered chassis to the bodybuilder, so I am guessing the front panel was provided by the bodybuilder.
As SBF233 was a Met Camm body I wonder if Harpers garage had a "spare" Norhern Counties cab front.

 

[ajrm]

That is interesting.
Leads to my next question. AIUI Leyland supplied the powered chassis to the bodybuilder, so I am guessing the front panel was provided by the bodybuilder.

No—the bonnet and front panel were part of the chassis. Occasionally an operator might do their own thing (Edinburgh for example, as mentioned above, but this was exceptional).

This was standard practice for all manufacturers and continued into the rear-engined era where the bustle or engine door/surround assembly were supplied by the chassis builder.

 

[Wyrleybart]

No—the bonnet and front panel were part of the chassis. Occasionally an operator might do their own thing (Edinburgh for example, as mentioned above, but this was exceptional).

This was standard practice for all manufacturers and continued into the rear-engined era where the bustle or engine door/surround assembly were supplied by the chassis builder.

Thsnks for that ajrm.

 

[SLC001]

The A suffix does not necessarily mean St Helens front.
When Leyland introduced their 'rationalised' models around 1968 in order to reduce the number of parts used across the various models, PD2's and PD3's had 10 added to their suffix number, then the letter 'A' was dropped as an indication of them having a St. Helens type front, then reintroduced to indicate the rationalised Pneumocyclic gearbox (including more Atlantean bits). Consequently the PD3A/1 became the PD3/11; the PD3A/2 became the PD3A/12; the PD3/4 became the PD3/14; the PD3/5 became the PD3A/15. Whereas Harper's previous two delivered two months earlier (LRF 992/3F) are shown as PD3A/1, I presume that their last one was Pneumocyclic - otherwise BLOTW have got it completely wrong again.
BLOTW cannot be relied upon. The P.S.V. Circle Leyland PD3 chassis list - Part two (CXB166), which is based on the manufacturer’s records, lists NRF 349F as a PD3A/2 and LRF 992/3F as PD3/11, the latter part of the rationalisation scheme. Also, NRF349F was a Leyland PD3A/2.
Many sources both on the internet and in books appear to have got this wrong.

SCT '61 is a fairly good website for further information.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The A suffix does not necessarily mean St Helens front.
When Leyland introduced their 'rationalised' models around 1968 in order to reduce the number of parts used across the various models, PD2's and PD3's had 10 added to their suffix number, then the letter 'A' was dropped as an indication of them having a St. Helens type front, then reintroduced to indicate the rationalised Pneumocyclic gearbox (including more Atlantean bits). Consequently the PD3A/1 became the PD3/11; the PD3A/2 became the PD3A/12; the PD3/4 became the PD3/14; the PD3/5 became the PD3A/15. Whereas Harper's previous two delivered two months earlier (LRF 992/3F) are shown as PD3A/1, I presume that their last one was Pneumocyclic - otherwise BLOTW have got it completely wrong again.
BLOTW cannot be relied upon. The P.S.V. Circle Leyland PD3 chassis list - Part two (CXB166), which is based on the manufacturer’s records, lists NRF 349F as a PD3A/2 and LRF 992/3F as PD3/11, the latter part of the rationalisation scheme. Also, NRF349F was a Leyland PD3A/2.
Many sources both on the internet and in books appear to have got this wrong.

SCT '61 is a fairly good website for further information.

That is really useful information, and very much explains it clearly. Thank you very much. I think I read somewhere that the final two were the final front engine rear platform buses by Leyland and presumably Atlantean thereafter.

For me it is one of those tardis wishes because Harpers garage as was, is probably less than five miles from where I live, and seems to have had the most eclectic fleet - much more so than Walsall. The rebodying and chopping of bus bodies seemed regular there, although I imagine the bus enthusiasts were probably horrified at the slab fronts fitted to the Burlingham Seagulls !!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2025 ==

The A suffix does not necessarily mean St Helens front.
When Leyland introduced their 'rationalised' models around 1968 in order to reduce the number of parts used across the various models, PD2's and PD3's had 10 added to their suffix number, then the letter 'A' was dropped as an indication of them having a St. Helens type front, then reintroduced to indicate the rationalised Pneumocyclic gearbox (including more Atlantean bits). Consequently the PD3A/1 became the PD3/11; the PD3A/2 became the PD3A/12; the PD3/4 became the PD3/14; the PD3/5 became the PD3A/15. Whereas Harper's previous two delivered two months earlier (LRF 992/3F) are shown as PD3A/1, I presume that their last one was Pneumocyclic - otherwise BLOTW have got it completely wrong again.
BLOTW cannot be relied upon. The P.S.V. Circle Leyland PD3 chassis list - Part two (CXB166), which is based on the manufacturer’s records, lists NRF 349F as a PD3A/2 and LRF 992/3F as PD3/11, the latter part of the rationalisation scheme. Also, NRF349F was a Leyland PD3A/2.
Many sources both on the internet and in books appear to have got this wrong.

SCT '61 is a fairly good website for further information.

About the pneumocyclic gearbox - would that have been similar type to that fitted to the Atlanteans, Fleetlines and Bristol VRs ? all seemed to have the very similar gear selector in the cab. Those "LRF" PD3/11s must have been quite monstrous buses !!!