Hinton Admiral Fatalities / Train Drivers

[deanparkr]

Theres been lots of fatalities at Hinton Admiral these last few months...

It must be well bad for train drivers to have to go through that. Read this article in the newspaper today:

Quite shocking ad:

Drivers must be well worried about passing Hinton Admiral

Has anyone on here been involved on a train and a fatality?

 

[O L Leigh]

Yup, but not there (wherever Hinton Admiral is).

Sounds like Driver Morgan has been quite badly shaken up by that one. Anger, upset and shock are very common emotions among drivers who've had a "fatal". Then again, as bad as they invariably are, the description of that one doesn't sound too nasty.

You do tend to keep an eye out at likely spots, such as platforms you pass without stopping and foot crossings, and it can be a toe-curling experience when someone refuses to move out of the "suicide spot" when you've whistled at them. Then again, you have to understand that in any driver's career a "fatal" is still a rare and comparatively unlikely occurrence. I was unlucky enough to have had mine on my fifth day out driving solo (a colleague I trained with had one on the 20th day), but some drivers go their entire career and never get one.

one TN

 

[Tom]

Yup, but not there (wherever Hinton Admiral is).

Waterloo to Weymouth mainline, between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth.

Hinton Admiral has become quite a hot spot - and I'm trying to figure out what is in that general area.

 

[deanparkr]

Waterloo to Weymouth mainline, between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth.

Hinton Admiral has become quite a hot spot - and I'm trying to figure out what is in that general area.

Apparently there is a possibility of suicide or the latest incident might of been due to a man falling from a nearby bridge.#

What happens to a driver when that encounter a fatal? Do they get all the help they need from the company?

 

[O L Leigh]

You get booked off sick for as long as you need (or, at least, as long as your GP keeps signing those doctors notes). There is certainly no pressure for you to come back, because you'd be next to useless if you kept going to pieces every time you thought someone was getting a wee bit close to the platform edge. You are also offered counselling through BUPA, whose counsellors are experienced with dealing with railway staff, though this is at the driver's discretion. When you do feel ready to come back, there is a "staged" return to work tailored to suit your needs. This can include riding PASS over the affected line and riding in the driving cab, but you will always be accompanied by a manager on your first driving turn over the route to make sure you're OK and to pass you as fit to return to work. You should also be accompanied by your manager and a union rep when you attend the inquest.

On the monetary side, drivers suffering a "fatal" are entitled to claim compensation from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board/Authority, which is generally £1000. On the downside, you do have to demonstrate genuine harm caused and have been off for a certain amount of time (generally not less than 6 weeks). I didn't go for the compensation myself because I knew I wasn't off for long enough and didn't feel that bad.

I've no complaints whatsoever about the treatment I had from the company, my managers or my colleagues after my "fatal".

one TN

 

[Tom]

Yesterday's incident AFAIK was a suicide... I suspect they jumped from a footbridge just north of Hinton Admiral.

Most companies give help and advice - some don't depending on the driver (bending the rules there by the companies in question, but it happens).

 

[O L Leigh]

Tom: The help and assistance offered should be broadly the same no matter what company we're talking about. However, it is up to the driver to decide what is needed.

As I mentioned on the parallel thread running in the Traction & Rolling Stock forum (no, me neither), some drivers decide they are happy to come back the very next day or even to finish their turn. This is rare and should cause some raised eyebrows in the managers office, but it does happen. When it does, the driver should still be accompanied by a manager until they are satisfied that they can be certified fit to continue.

This isn't corner-cutting, but responding to what the driver wants.

one TN

 

[deanparkr]

I'm sure each driver will respond differently to the fatality.

Got to feel bad for those that take it really badly though. ad:

I'm glad there's lots of support in place- there certainly needs to be.

I didnt realise there were so many fatalities going on since Ive started regularly using the trains since Oct 07, quite shocking

 

[Oracle]

Hinton Admiral is the last/first station in Hampshire since 1st April 1974 (previously the border went to between Bournemouth and Poole). The main road to/from Christchurch goes over the top of the railway. It's also not far from the New Forest. The Forest is known for suiciders to drive to to think things through and then gas themselves in their car, say. It is very tragic and I feel so sorry for drivers and the staff who have to clear up. A friend was a tube driver who had a suicider throw himself in front of his train. He left the LU after some years and I am sure that he never recovered.

 

[matrix]

the voyagers had 7 fatalies in 4 weeks from what i heard in the run up to christmas, i know someone that works at the depot

 

[1D53]

In the run up to Christmas is always the worst time for fatalities generally.

On the subject of drivers experiences after a fatality I remember being on a train between Huddersfield and Leeds when half way the line was closed by flooding. The signaller proposed a diversionary route, however the driver had a fatality on that route the last time he'd been through the diversion and hadn't been through since. After some discussion with the guard the driver decided to go for it and pretty much floored it at line speed through the diversionary route. Waiting for a path out of Leeds I was chatting to the driver (as he had a couple of cigarettes to calm himself!), he said he'd been crapping himself but he knew he had to clear the line and get the passengers to their destinations, complete dedication to the cause. I suppose as you say its how the driver feels and how confident he is.

 

[Miles]

Hey guys, i'm a student at Bournemouth University, and I was actually on the Hinton Admiral train coming back to university (this one: http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/lat...l_services_disrupted_after_train_hits_man.php). I study scriptwriting, and I am writing an hour-long drama based somewhat on my own experience.

I remember the driver was very traumatised. Shortly after we had stopped, he came on the tannoy and he sounded like he was nearly in tears.

I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can answer to help me with my script. Firstly, how does a driver actually brake? Is it a pedal, a lever, a button? What kind of stopping distant would a train going around 60-70mph have?

Also, is there any danger that by braking and slowing down there is a chance of causing the suicide victim more pain by hitting them at a slower speed, and making death less certain? Basically, I am trying to work out if a driver would ever purposefully not brake, knowing that they don't have time to stop before the victim and they are more likely to kill them quickly.

I know its a bit morbid, but any input would be great.

Thanks a lot,
Miles.

 

[Coxster]

Hi Miles,

In the case of this incident, the cab would have looked something like this:- http://www.coxster.co.uk/railworkexperience/gallery/450.htm On the left you have a combined brake and power controller, which is pushed away from you to brake and pulled towards you to accelerate. To the bottom of the picture is a metal pedal. If the driver takes his foot off the pedal for more than x (a very small number) seconds, full braking will be applied automatically. To apply the emergency brake, you can either push the power handle all the way back or hit the red plunger on the right of the image.

As for purposely not braking, I'd have thought that applying full braking would be just instinct. I'm sure our resident railway staff members can help you in regard to braking distances and anything I may have gotten inaccurate.

 

[16CSVT2700]

Also, is there any danger that by braking and slowing down there is a chance of causing the suicide victim more pain by hitting them at a slower speed, and making death less certain? Basically, I am trying to work out if a driver would ever purposefully not brake, knowing that they don't have time to stop before the victim and they are more likely to kill them quickly.

I would have thought that any slower than 30mph a train may be able to stop in time using an emergency brake application. Of course it depends on the weight/type of the train and how good the brakes are, not to mention railhead conditions and visibility.
I also think it's in the drivers best interests to slam it into an EBA, and try not to look out the cab window, as one driver once told me he did when he had a fatal in a HST some years ago.

 

[driver9000]

I dont think any driver would not brake in event of someone standing in front of their train - although there is little we can do other than hope, it wouldnt look very good at an inquiry or post incident interviews to have not selected Emergency on the brake. It could also result in the driver being in the firing line of a manslaughter charge as (s)he took no evasive action. At my depot it is something that is openly discussed and what I have mentioned above is something my manager is in agreement with regarding the braking. It becomes a train drivers instinct to brake, although I havent had a fatality I missed a tresspasser by approx 2ft as she wouldnt move out the way, I had been doing 45mph on sighting her from around a bend and dispite throwing the brakes to Emergency I still went way past where she had been standing.

As for lower speeds there was a person jump off a platform edge recently in Lancashire and was struck by a train doing no more than 10mph and they still died.

 

[O L Leigh]

A driver would never knowingly not brake. For one thing it's an instinctive reaction to slam the brake handle as far forward as it can possibly go, just like stamping on the brake pedal in your car if a kiddy ran out in front. I wouldn't like to imagine what would happen to any driver who deliberately elected not to brake under such situations, but would guess that a zealous lawyer might try and see how far he/she could get with a manslaughter prosecution (although that's not to say that this actually would happen).

Train braking capabilities don't really enter into it, as someone intent on killing themselves will usually act only at the very last minute to ensure success. My "fatal" was at a very modest 40mph, but the person ran straight out and jumped into the road directly in front of my train giving me no time to stop. Even though I went straight for the emergency brake the train still travelled it's own length (8 car Cl317) before coming to a stand, thankfully with all doors in the platform. Whether this lower speed caused the person greater suffering compared to them selecting a section of line where I'd have been doing twice that speed is something that I don't much like to consider. But then, it may be that there was very little suffering at all. I just don't know.

one TN

 

[metrocammel]

It's a good job none of you work on the Bombay Suburban rail system, I watched a programme about the railways there, and the drivers have an average of one fatality a month(!) or something equally as ridiculous. They even showed a woman who had just been crushed by one of these old electric units, and they just put her on a stretcher, put her on the train (along with thousands of commuters!) and carried on!! It's amazing how different cultures are throughout the world - imagine the guard putting a dead body covered in tarpaulin next to passengers in the UK!

 

[Miles]

Wow, thanks to everyone who replied, that's all really helpful.

What would happen about the incident concerning the driver? They are obviously obliged to make some form of announcement, but would they be able to leave the train if they wanted? What about the other train staff, are they allowed it leave? Also, where is the public address system located in the cab? They might seem like little details, but they're all the little things that knowledgable people like yourselves would pick apart when you watch it, haha.

Thanks again,
Miles.

 

[P156KWJ]

Wow, thanks to everyone who replied, that's all really helpful.

What would happen about the incident concerning the driver? They are obviously obliged to make some form of announcement, but would they be able to leave the train if they wanted? What about the other train staff, are they allowed it leave? Also, where is the public address system located in the cab? They might seem like little details, but they're all the little things that knowledgable people like yourselves would pick apart when you watch it, haha.

Thanks again,
Miles.

Totally depends on the train type, model etc. Drivers do not make standard PAs about station calls etc, that is the job of the guard / conductor(ess) and is usually a phone which can alternate between PA and cab to cab communication. Drivers can leave the train provided they let every member of staff on the train know and wear Hi-viz equipment, and possibly radio the HQ (not sure about that, I don't drive, I work on a preserved line!).
one thing I can say though (going back to you asking about location of the PA) is that every train model will be different in a slight way. In fact the class 153 has slightly different controls depending on which end you drive from, although that is due to the fact they were former 2 car units. Also, depending on what train you are driving, its needs may determine what is actually IN the cab. (eg a diesel train will not have pantograph controls etc).