Highland Main Line

[HSTEd]

What is the gradient like on the valley below the viaduct? Could you run a line across the valley bottom and then save the viaduct track for trains that couldn't handle the gradient using bi-directional running?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What is the gradient like on the valley below the viaduct? Could you run a line across the valley bottom and then save the viaduct track for trains that couldn't handle the gradient using bi-directional running?

I suspect the cost of that would far outweigh any benefits.

 

[37 418]

I have no Gaelic, but recognise the authenticity of the "dair"suffix.I'm struggling to see where all of your suggestions are taking us other than to a more restrictive railway.

Now you're proposing both higher linespeeds and holding freight in loops. These are mutually exclusive! We've spent a fortune in increasing freight speeds (to minimise conflicts) and it can take a great distance to bring a thousand tonnes or whatever to a stand and then back to linespeed. Why do it?
As for bi-di. How much additional loss of capacity is that going to bring in the face of timetabled opposite - direction moves? Add the headways Add the stopping distances Add the longer journey times for 'wrong-way' working. These proposals are brining the HML to a crawl!

Please lets stick to computable improvements, the reduction of a couple of section lengths (which will allow consecutive services in the same direction to complete their transit in less time) and increase capacity at either end (Edin - Perth and Inv - Daviot). You can model these with real life traffic and they work.

The road spelling is 'Drumochter' (the 'Anglicised' spelling), the railway spelling is 'Druimuachdair'. The correct Gaelic is Druim Uachdair as Druimuachadair breaks the Gaelic spelling rule. It literally means 'Ridge at the top'. -dair isn't a specific Gaelic suffix. Uachda(i)r means the top, or top surface of something, and is the Auchter- is many Scottish place names.

 

[matchmaker]

Mader me chuckle that they call it the Tesco Express. I wonder who at Tesco was charged with coming up with an entirely new and unique name for the train.

Successor to "The Safeway Flyer".

 

[ObservationCar]

The road spelling is 'Drumochter' (the 'Anglicised' spelling), the railway spelling is 'Druimuachdair'. The correct Gaelic is Druim Uachdair as Druimuachadair breaks the Gaelic spelling rule. It literally means 'Ridge at the top'. -dair isn't a specific Gaelic suffix. Uachda(i)r means the top, or top surface of something, and is the Auchter- is many Scottish place names.

Ciamar a tha thu 37418?

I'm the last person that can question your gaelic, but does that mean the sign is wrong at the side of the railway, as it spelled Druimuachdar.

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=14474
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What is the gradient like on the valley below the viaduct? Could you run a line across the valley bottom and then save the viaduct track for trains that couldn't handle the gradient using bi-directional running?

Eh... no, The section of line from Aviemore to Inverness was and still is a feat of engineering but this would be pushing it too far. While a train is on the viaduct it is about to climb a 1 in 60 gradient to get up to the Slochd. See pic for more info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tomatin_railway_viaduct_02.jpg

They could start running suburban freight and call that Tesco Metro...

And if they run an additional train would they call that the Tesco Extra

 

[PaulLothian]

What is the gradient like on the valley below the viaduct? Could you run a line across the valley bottom and then save the viaduct track for trains that couldn't handle the gradient using bi-directional running?

I believe Findhorn Viaduct is 145 feet high crossing a steep sided valley - I suspect there would be fewer delays by single-track working!

 

[HSTEd]

Now that is an impressive viaduct.....

So single track working or an enormous sum on a new viaduct?

 

[Blindtraveler]

this whole much talked about issue goes through my head every time I use the HML - To me imts a bit of a your dammed if you do or dammed if you dont type situation. My own personal moan which is not entirely appropriate to this bit of the forum is that if a 170 is the best that can be done for a sometimes nearly 4 hour run from the central belt, its a poor show. Im not openly a 170 hater, infact of a run with good line speed and nothing to challenges there to me cracking little trains but the HML in my experience tests them a bit to much both in terms of passenger cumfort and in capabilitty esp when fully loaded. Ive been up and down during the summer a good deal and several times the cooling fans have been active perminantly and on one trip the A/C packed in also.

add to this that accepting the main holiday season when traffic is heavy the fastest citylink/megabus/parks of Hamilton coaches which run non stop to perth often can equal or even better the rail journey time. The same goes im sad to say for the run north to Thurso or Wick where stagecoaches X99 is quicker. i look forward to fvelopments

 

[Buttsy]

The same goes im sad to say for the run north to Thurso or Wick where stagecoaches X99 is quicker. i look forward to fvelopments

The reason for that is the Dornoch Bridge, built in the late 80s to take an hour off the drive to the far north. BR wanted to tack a railway onto it to reduce thier timings and serve a major (in far north terms) town. The Secretary Of State for Scotland (Malcolm Rifkind I believe) wouldn't fund the final £3m of the £12m required to ensure this happened. I've been told that this was because he was worried as to what would happen to the Lairg loop once the new route opened. Hence BR were unable to significantly improve thier timings north and serve a town which would have potentially helped reduce the losses on the route

 

[Blindtraveler]

wel typical tories! Opinion only

 

[daikilo]

this whole much talked about issue goes through my head every time I use the HML - To me imts a bit of a your dammed if you do or dammed if you dont type situation. My own personal moan which is not entirely appropriate to this bit of the forum is that if a 170 is the best that can be done for a sometimes nearly 4 hour run from the central belt, its a poor show. Im not openly a 170 hater, infact of a run with good line speed and nothing to challenges there to me cracking little trains but the HML in my experience tests them a bit to much both in terms of passenger cumfort and in capabilitty esp when fully loaded. Ive been up and down during the summer a good deal and several times the cooling fans have been active perminantly and on one trip the A/C packed in also.

add to this that accepting the main holiday season when traffic is heavy the fastest citylink/megabus/parks of Hamilton coaches which run non stop to perth often can equal or even better the rail journey time. The same goes im sad to say for the run north to Thurso or Wick where stagecoaches X99 is quicker. i look forward to fvelopments

My opinion is that if the traffic on the HML is principally generated in Scotland then Scotland should decide the way forward. If this is tilting and/or high-power trains then so be it. If it is generated elsewhere then the contribution to the Scottish economy should be evaluated and pro-rata decisions applied.

 

[Blindtraveler]

i believe tilt is not viable or needed but if down to me i'd be putting class 67s and heavily rffurbed MK2s on here with power doors, uprobs 5 coaches - 4 standard and 1 first/buffet plus D8

 

[ObservationCar]

i believe tilt is not viable or needed but if down to me i'd be putting class 67s and heavily rffurbed MK2s on here with power doors, uprobs 5 coaches - 4 standard and 1 first/buffet plus D8

If this was facebook I would have clicked "Like" to this comment!

At work we have many people coming up for meetings or courses in Inverness from all over Scotland, Aberdeen is not a problem as the timings for this service is reasonable considering the prehistoric nature of the infrastructure. But coming from anywhere else, Perth, Stirling, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, they don't arrive until 11:00 at work (with first arival at approx 1030). Now I know it's more a rolling stock issue but we deffinatly need a more intercity version of train particullarly for busy business based trains, I could go into to more detail, but it would not be infrastructure related.

What is an infrastructure related issue on the HML, which decreases capacity, is that its only open 0600 to 2355.

 

[Maxfly]

If this was facebook I would have clicked "Like" to this comment!

At work we have many people coming up for meetings or courses in Inverness from all over Scotland, Aberdeen is not a problem as the timings for this service is reasonable considering the prehistoric nature of the infrastructure. But coming from anywhere else, Perth, Stirling, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, they don't arrive until 11:00 at work (with first arival at approx 1030). Now I know it's more a rolling stock issue but we deffinatly need a more intercity version of train particullarly for busy business based trains, I could go into to more detail, but it would not be infrastructure related.

What is an infrastructure related issue on the HML, which decreases capacity, is that its only open 0600 to 2355.

Hopefully the new timetable change will alleviate this, losing the Aviemore local service to get an earlier run to either Glasgow or Edinburgh.

No sure about the boxes further down but Inverness TCB is open 24/7 and Aviemore only closes Sunday for a few hours. Would think it would be easy enough to have other boxes open just depends if folk want to run trains more than anything....if the trains are to be running then the line will be open tbh.

 

[37 418]

Ciamar a tha thu 37418?

I'm the last person that can question your gaelic, but does that mean the sign is wrong at the side of the railway, as it spelled Druimuachdar.

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=14474
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tha gu math Observation Car!

The Gaelic is indeed (slightly) incorrect as the correct version is Druim Uachdair, as the one word version breaks the spelling rule, plus it's missing the penultimate 'i' which indicates the possesive context (like the 's construction in English).

Details of spelling rule

 

[jopsuk]

As a side diversion, but Scotrail do seem to be determined to run what should be three, possibly four, fleets as pretty much a common pool of two classes- the 170s and 158s. I appreciate they do this for convenience of stock maintenance and diagramming, but the following would be better for passengers as separate fleets:
Far North (already is semi-separate)
Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness - should be Intercity standard rolling stock
Glasgow-Edinburgh Express- commuter, but with 1st class
Glasgow/Edinburgh - Alloa/Dunblane and Fife Circle- commuter, standard only

 

[Blindtraveler]

as said earlier, likes of INV should be a
locn and wrake, if a sutable unit isnt available

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Gaelic is indeed (slightly) incorrect as the correct version is Druim Uachdair, as the one word version breaks the spelling rule, plus it's missing the penultimate 'i' which indicates the possessive context (like the 's construction in English).

Details of spelling rule

I did note the missing penultimate " i " on the sign on the photographic link. I wonder when this sign was constructed and installed.

The link (spelling rules) that you have submitted is most comprehensive and I have taken a hard copy of all ten pages for future reference.

 

[37 418]

No problem Paul.

I dare say the sign was erected during the BR era, BR were ignorant (as was Ordnance Survey) to Gaelic (and Welsh) place names.

A good example in Wales was the BR spelling of Caernarfon - Caernarvon.

With regards to Gaelic, Transport Scotland is working with AÀA (Ainmean Àite na h-Alba) to ensure the correct Gaelic is put up on the relevant signage.

My local station, Dingwall, will receive it's correct signage in 2014. Like Druim Uachdair, the Gaelic for Dingwall (Inbhir Pheofharain) should be 2 words but on the sign (erected during the National Express era) is 1 word, yet Inverness (Inbhir Nis) is correctly 2 - so much for consistency!

 

[Greenback]

No problem Paul.

I dare say the sign was erected during the BR era, BR were ignorant (as was Ordnance Survey) to Gaelic (and Welsh) place names.

A good example in Wales was the BR spelling of Caernarfon - Caernarvon.

With regards to Gaelic, Transport Scotland is working with AÀA (Ainmean Àite na h-Alba) to ensure the correct Gaelic is put up on the relevant signage.

My local station, Dingwall, will receive it's correct signage in 2014. Like Druim Uachdair, the Gaelic for Dingwall (Inbhir Pheofharain) should be 2 words but on the sign (erected during the National Express era) is 1 word, yet Inverness (Inbhir Nis) is correctly 2 - so much for consistency!

It wasn't just BR, most Welsh names were anglicised as part of the deliberate attempts to stamp out Welsh language and culture. Llanelly, Towyn and Dolgelly are all examples of names that has their Welsh spelling amended officially. The English versions appeared on all official documents, road signs etc.

 

[Butts]

It wasn't just BR, most Welsh names were anglicised as part of the deliberate attempts to stamp out Welsh language and culture. Llanelly, Towyn and Dolgelly are all examples of names that has their Welsh spelling amended officially. The English versions appeared on all official documents, road signs etc.

It seems crazy to me that money is spent "dual signing" in Wales and indeed to a lesser extent in Scotland.

Considering what 20% of Welsh people and 10% if that of Scots will actually understand them.

There are probably more urdhu speakers in the UK than the above two combined yet there is no proliferation of such signs in Birmingham or Bradford or London.

Yes I am aware of the cultural aspects of this issue

 

[jopsuk]

With regards to Gaelic, Transport Scotland is working with AÀA (Ainmean Àite na h-Alba) to ensure the correct Gaelic is put up on the relevant signage.

I though they were putting up Gaelic signs everywhere, even where the town name doesn't have a gaelic root whatsoever and there's never been a gaelic name recorded?

 

[NSEFAN]

It seems crazy to me that money is spent "dual signing" in Wales and indeed to a lesser extent in Scotland.

Considering what 20% of Welsh people and 10% if that of Scots will actually understand them.

There are probably more urdhu speakers in the UK than the above two combined yet there is no proliferation of such signs in Birmingham or Bradford or London.

Yes I am aware of the cultural aspects of this issue

Southall has its name in Panjabi. IIRC, the Bicester stations have some signs in Chinese. Even so, the majority of local residents will still speak English to some degree. Dual language signage reflects more on the identity of the local people rather than their needs. I agree that it is a waste of money, but to people who are proud of their heritage, it is well worth the investment.

 

[Bill EWS]

Sadly many Gaidhlig names, be they road, rail, village, town or city, are completely reduced to gobble-de-gook by Ango-Scot translations or just pure ignorance of the language. You really need to study the language a reasonable bit to be able to spot these corruptions Many local people are not even aware of this themselves. If they are Gaidhlig speakers they simply shrug their shoulders at it. Much of the problem comes from not being able to proununce the words in the first place and that many names are composed of three or more individual words and are clumped together as one, where the gobble-de-gook comes in.

Even quite small names can be a composure of two or more words. E.G. Taynault and Tyndrum. Taigh An Auilt is 'House on/by the Steam' and Taigh An Druim is 'House on the Ridge'. The 'y' is totally wrong.

Then there is the pronpounciation! I will make it as simple as possible so that you can get the jist of it. 'Tie-An-Oolch' (ch as in church). 'Tie An Droom'. Ther are local variations of the sound of words too.

As I say, when you add all the other corruptions you can understand why many of the place names you see today in their Anglo-Scottish form are really just gooble-de-gook.

 

[Greenback]

It seems crazy to me that money is spent "dual signing" in Wales and indeed to a lesser extent in Scotland.

Considering what 20% of Welsh people and 10% if that of Scots will actually understand them.

There are probably more urdhu speakers in the UK than the above two combined yet there is no proliferation of such signs in Birmingham or Bradford or London.

Yes I am aware of the cultural aspects of this issue

Good! But for those who aren't bilingual signs are vital in preserving a Welsh language, identity and culture. And I don;t even speak Welsh fluently, I just know a few words and phrases which I would not have picked up were it not for the fact that I see Welsh all the time on signs and forms.

Sadly many Gaidhlig names, be they road, rail, village, town or city, are completely reduced to gobble-de-gook by Ango-Scot translations or just pure ignorance of the language. You really need to study the language a reasonable bit to be able to spot these corruptions Many local people are not even aware of this themselves. If they are Gaidhlig speakers they simply shrug their shoulders at it. Much of the problem comes from not being able to proununce the words in the first place and that many names are composed of three or more individual words and are clumped together as one, where the gobble-de-gook comes in.

Even quite small names can be a composure of two or more words. E.G. Taynault and Tyndrum. Taigh An Auilt is 'House on/by the Steam' and Taigh An Druim is 'House on the Ridge'. The 'y' is totally wrong.

Then there is the pronpounciation! I will make it as simple as possible so that you can get the jist of it. 'Tie-An-Oolch' (ch as in church). 'Tie An Droom'. Ther are local variations of the sound of words too.

As I say, when you add all the other corruptions you can understand why many of the place names you see today in their Anglo-Scottish form are really just gooble-de-gook.

There are corruptions in Welsh too, and plenty of debate as to whether some place names have been made up in modern times.

However, language does change and evolve (much to the disgust of the French!) and in olden times Swansea had about twelve different spellings, none of which could be considered to be official!

 

[PaulLothian]

I though they were putting up Gaelic signs everywhere, even where the town name doesn't have a gaelic root whatsoever and there's never been a gaelic name recorded?

It's not quite that general, although ScotRail seem to like the idea of making up new names for stations.

In relation to the orthography of Gaelic/Gaidhlig, it appears, from traditional music forums that I subscribe to, that this is always a fruitful area for disagreement when Gaelic speakers fancy an argument! And the same applies to names of hills and other geographical features in the world of Munro-bagging.

I am totally in favour of using existing Gaelic names on signs, but do prefer the modern versions that clearly indicate this duplication by noticeably different colours for each language.

 

[matchmaker]

Try travelling in the Gaeltacht areas in the west of Ireland. Most road signs are only in Gaelic..................

 

[tbtc]

There are corruptions in Welsh too, and plenty of debate as to whether some place names have been made up in modern times.

However, language does change and evolve (much to the disgust of the French!) and in olden times Swansea had about twelve different spellings, none of which could be considered to be official!

I agree.

When these old languages were being spoken by more than a handful of people, it was before modern communications, in rural communities, so there wasn't the same use of the written word that we have today.

Hence no "official" spelling of some things (see the several ways that Shakespere spelt his names as an example). Trying to impose *one* spelling in 2011, or arguing about how alternatives are "wrong" seems to miss the point.

It does seem to be very token, especially in central Scotland where Gaelic was never the first language - you'd be better renaming stations in the Scots of Oor Wullie instead

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When these old languages were being spoken by more than a handful of people, it was before modern communications, in rural communities, so there wasn't the same use of the written word that we have today. Hence no "official" spelling of some things.

Whilst the matter of bi-lingual signs is being discussed, is there likelihood for the ancient language of Cornwall to be featured upon certain signs, as I saw a proliferation of the flag symbol of white with the black cross when I was in the south of the county earlier this year.

 

[jopsuk]

Lots of people fly the flag in Cornwall, but the nationalists have bugger all political support and a minute proportion of the populace can actually speak the language.