Highland Chieftain schedule

[najaB]

But do they want to get on trains to London England that much?

I don't know, but it's notable how much protest there was when the Chieftain was under threat a few years back.

 

[dcsprior]

Are there stats on what proportion of passengers who get on at Inverness travel to different stations? I suspect most travelling the full distance would go by plane, so expect a decent % of the demand from Inverness is to intermediate stations rather than London itself and I'm wondering if some of the new Scotrail HST services being extended to Newcastle would therefore help.

 

[tbtc]

It frustrates me when we have threads on places like Inverness/ Cornwall/ Lake District when enthusiasts are focussed on the "tourist" market (because that's the reason that we visit these places), rather than thinking about the kind of services that people who live in those areas would want.

For example, if you live in Cornwall, you probably aren't going to travel to London on a weekly basis, the Sleeper and HSTs full of surfboards aren't going to be a priority for you, but you may be really interested in services arriving in Plymouth before 09:00.

Same goes with Inverness. Instead of this idea that the Chieftain is there for tourists heading down to London, maybe consider the need for using the longest train of the day on the HML to arrive in Edinburgh before 12:00?

If you want to allow tourists to have a nice leisurely hotel breakfast and be able to board a London-bound train at Inverness in the middle of the morning then you are ignoring the big market of people who'd rather have a long train that allowed them to get down to Edinburgh/ Glasgow before lunchtime.

The population of Inverness (and the surrounding areas) has also grown considerably over the last thirty years or so.
I don't know if it would be viable or not, but there is nothing saying that just because the current level of service is what we've got, that it is all we'll always get.

Almost exponentially - it's unrecognisable from the place I first started visiting in the '90s - when Inverness felt like another country to this Fifer.

But, at the same time, the increase in population means that the importance of "tourism" to Inverness is probably less of a priority than it was in BR days.

Presumably there is not a business case for a second working around 10.00 - 10.30

TBH I'm not sure that there's a business case for the existing Chieftain service (given the cost of putting staff up in Inverness, the complications of diagramming, the hassle of looking after one HST at Inverness).

The service exists because it'd be political suicide to cut it.

It just looks like another solution in search of a problem, I'm afraid

True

 

[Suraggu]

The loadings on 1S16 and 1E15 prove the Inverness is a busy and profitable service tourists or not.

 

[jimm]

I don't know, but it's notable how much protest there was when the Chieftain was under threat a few years back.

Thanks for meddling with the wording in my post.

It is perfectly possible to get to lots of other parts of England with a change of trains in Edinburgh at times of the day other than when the Chieftain runs - and if you want to get to anywhere served by/close to the WCML then you have to do that anyway, even if using the Chieftain to/from Inverness.

Are there stats on what proportion of passengers who get on at Inverness travel to different stations? I suspect most travelling the full distance would go by plane, so expect a decent % of the demand from Inverness is to intermediate stations rather than London itself and I'm wondering if some of the new Scotrail HST services being extended to Newcastle would therefore help.

The new TransPennine franchise will deliver considerable improvements in direct services between Scotland and the North of England. No need whatever for Scotrail to get involved - just to make sure that there are good connections at Edinburgh with services from/to other parts of Scotland.

 

[najaB]

Thanks for meddling with the wording in my post.

The unsubtle point I was making is that the Chieftain isn't just about direct service from Inverness to London - there's Newcastle and York as well, and it's not just for people from Inverness. So it isn't just a case of saying "there's flights from Inverness to London so the Chieftain isn't needed", or that another service on the route might not make some money.

 

[Mag_seven]

Most people probably use "The Chieftain" because it preferable to a ScotRail cart.

 

[ainsworth74]

Most people probably use "The Chieftain" because it preferable to a ScotRail cart.

But once ScotRail have their own HSTs will that be the case any more...

 

[najaB]

But once ScotRail have their own HSTs will that be the case any more...

Good point, that depends on how good/bad the refurb job is.

 

[jimm]

The unsubtle point I was making is that the Chieftain isn't just about direct service from Inverness to London - there's Newcastle and York as well, and it's not just for people from Inverness. So it isn't just a case of saying "there's flights from Inverness to London so the Chieftain isn't needed", or that another service on the route might not make some money.

Did I say the Highland Chieftain wasn't needed? No. I just questioned the idea that another day train from London - or anywhere else in England come to that - was needed or, more to the point, viable.

If BR or its successors thought there was money to made, then they would have been running another daytime cross-border service to Inverness for a long time now. But BR ditched the Clansman after a good few years when both trains were in the timetable and none of the private operators have shown any interest since they took over. Whereas Aberdeen is clearly thought to be worthwhile as a destination, with five cross-border trains a day, two of which each way go nowhere near London.

 

[najaB]

Did I say the Highland Chieftain wasn't needed? No. I just questioned the idea that another day train from London - or anywhere else in England come to that - was needed or, more to the point, viable.

You haven't but others (both in this thread and in real life) have.

If BR or its successors thought there was money to made, then they would have been running another daytime cross-border service to Inverness for a long time now. But BR ditched the Clansman after a good few years when both trains were in the timetable and none of the private operators have shown any interest since they took over.

Oh, come on. You know as well as anyone else that BR's offerings were driven by politics (internal and national) before profits.

And the 'private operators' argument is fallacious as the service specification forms part of the franchise agreement - additional services are as rare as hens teeth. This is largely because the services in the franchise agreement are designed to 'sweat' the assets. And I've no idea what the situation is with an OAO operating services through Scotland beyond Edinburgh.

What we have in the next couple of years is the rare combination of a market that *possibly* could support additional service(s) and an operator that could have 'spare' units due to fleet replacement.

Is it worth giving it a punt?

 

[jopsuk]

Most people probably use "The Chieftain" because it preferable to a ScotRail cart.

No, most people using it for "local" journeys north of Stirling will be using it as it as the time they need to travel. Highland Mainline Perth-Inverness - and especially Edinburgh-Inverness direct - isn't frequent enough to pick the service based on stock. No-one travels two hours early or late just to get an HST rather than a Turbostar.

 

[DarloRich]

As long as it continues to call at Darlo i don't mind when it sets off from Inverness

The 17:00 and 18:00 Kings Cross to Edinburgh have to be HSTs due to power limitations in the OLE at that time, many electric trains out of Kings Cross at that time. Previously the Kings Cross to Skipton service used to be the HST vice 17:00 due to power limitations out of Leeds banning Class 91s to Skipton.

Is that for real?

 

[najaB]

Is that for real?

I can believe it, there are a lot more services these days than when the knitting was put up. They probably could do with a new feed but the question is where it would come from.

Another question - will the 801s be more power efficient than the Class 91's?

 

[jimm]

And the 'private operators' argument is fallacious as the service specification forms part of the franchise agreement - additional services are as rare as hens teeth. This is largely because the services in the franchise agreement are designed to 'sweat' the assets. And I've no idea what the situation is with an OAO operating services through Scotland beyond Edinburgh.

What we have in the next couple of years is the rare combination of a market that *possibly* could support additional service(s) and an operator that could have 'spare' units due to fleet replacement.

Is it worth giving it a punt?

In what way is it fallacious? There is a difference between a TOC starting a completely new route and it adding extra services on an existing route over and above what it is required to provide under the franchise specification - in the latter case many TOCs have done just that in many parts of the country since 1996. GNER, NXEC and Virgin have shown not the slightest inclination to run more trains to Inverness over all that time.

East Coast won't have any 'spare' units - the HSTs will be off its books the instant the 800s start to enter traffic and while Virgin is committed to improving services in Yorkshire and the North East using some of them - and adding more Edinburgh services from next May out of existing resources - they have said nothing about Inverness. And the two rival open access bids for Anglo-Scotttish services are simply Edinburgh-London, which says what they think about the likely costs of going further north set against any potential revenue.

 

[najaB]

In what way is it fallacious?

Because GNER/NXEC/EC/VTEC didn't have the resources to add an additional service to Inverness, and no other franchised operator can muscle in on GR/SR territory. As new stock enters the options multiply.

East Coast won't have any 'spare' units - the HSTs will be off its books the instant the 800s start to enter traffic...

While they won't be on lease to VTEC, there will be spare HSTs as not all of them are spoken for yet - just look at the 'What will happen to the HST' threads that have been popping up in Traction and Rolling Stock.

And the two rival open access bids for Anglo-Scotttish services are simply Edinburgh-London, which says what they think about the likely costs of going further north set against any potential revenue.

Because the OAO's don't have the flexibility that comes with a larger fleet. If you only have five or six trains, tying one up with a six hour Edinburgh-Inverness round trip isn't viable. If you have a fleet of 30 it's much more doable.

 

[jimm]

Because GNER/NXEC/EC/VTEC didn't have the resources to add an additional service to Inverness, and no other franchised operator can muscle in on GR/SR territory. As new stock enters the options multiply.

Wrong, there have been opportunities over the years to add stock, notably when XC stopped using HSTs and MML/EMT reduced their requirement for them and as you surely know, the EC HST fleet now is larger than in 1996 precisely because some extra sets were taken on - but the various operators of EC have always chosen to use them on services to places other than Inverness.

While they won't be on lease to VTEC, there will be spare HSTs as not all of them are spoken for yet - just look at the 'What will happen to the HST' threads that have been popping up in Traction and Rolling Stock.

So there will be a period after GWR gets rids of HSTs that EC will still be using them - so what? It will be a short one, so what do you propose happens when all the EC sets go for scrap? VTEC's Class 800 order does not allow for extra trains to Inverness, just to places in Yorkshire and the North East. And the HSTs are not DDA-compliant either, so it is goodbye at the end of 2019 unless a short-term exemption is needed for some reason to ensure that core services continue to run - and an experimental extra train to Inverness would not fit in that category.

In any case Scotrail needs about half of the 118 GWR Class 43s and the 60 or so needed are all going to be going off to works as soon as they are released to get a thorough overhaul, so that is many months of withdrawals before any would become available to anyone else. Of the rest, 29 Class 43s have non-standard GEC traction motors, so no other operator will want to go near those, 10 are owned by First Group and look like being needed right up to the end of GWR operation of HSTs due to the electrification delays, so that leaves a handful that might be free at the back end of 2018, giving about a year before they hit the DDA buffers.

Because the OAO's don't have the flexibility that comes with a larger fleet. If you only have five or six trains, tying one up with a six hour Edinburgh-Inverness round trip isn't viable. If you have a fleet of 30 it's much more doable.

You were the one who mentioned open access operators in the first place. I don't believe there is any chance whatever that anyone would look at Inverness as a possible destination for such an operation unless they thought it was some under-served pot of gold, which brings us back to the franchised operator. Despite already having 14 or 15 HSTs to hand, it has, in its various guises over the years, chosen to use them to improve services elsewhere - most likely because they don't see another Inverness train as viable.

 

[backontrack]

I do wonder why it doesn't call at Dalwhinnie. Pathing constraints? Timetabling for speed?

 

[jimm]

I do wonder why it doesn't call at Dalwhinnie. Pathing constraints? Timetabling for speed?

How about the profound lack of traffic there? Less than 2,500 entries and exits a year and a village population of no more than 100.

 

[route:oxford]

In any case Scotrail needs about half of the 118 GWR Class 43s and the 60 or so needed are all going to be going off to works as soon as they are released to get a thorough overhaul, so that is many months of withdrawals before any would become available to anyone else. Of the rest, 29 Class 43s have non-standard GEC traction motors, so no other operator will want to go near those, 10 are owned by First Group and look like being needed right up to the end of GWR operation of HSTs due to the electrification delays, so that leaves a handful that might be free at the back end of 2018, giving about a year before they hit the DDA buffers.

Given that First Group own some of these sets outright, there is the option for these units to go through the same process as the Scotrail units and brought right up to modern compliance standards.

This gives the overall group a unique position of security of supply. Whether using the units on Transpennine, their Scottish/English OA operations on East Coast or on the GWR.

If there are issues with the Hitachi units, it could well result in First Group leasing the upgraded heritage units to Hitachi to lease back to GWR...

 

[jimm]

Given that First Group own some of these sets outright, there is the option for these units to go through the same process as the Scotrail units and brought right up to modern compliance standards.

This gives the overall group a unique position of security of supply. Whether using the units on Transpennine, their Scottish/English OA operations on East Coast or on the GWR.

If there are issues with the Hitachi units, it could well result in First Group leasing the upgraded heritage units to Hitachi to lease back to GWR...

I doubt very much that First have any intention of hanging on to those HSTs for a moment longer than they have to, never mind spending all the money that would be needed to fit power doors and retention toilets and life-extend the power cars.

That they pushed very hard indeed to get the AT300 order for the West Country services approved by DafT in order to have an all-IEP fleet for GW express services - plus an option for up to 30 more sets - says it all really.

 

[Class 170101]

I can believe it, there are a lot more services these days than when the knitting was put up. They probably could do with a new feed but the question is where it would come from.

Another question - will the 801s be more power efficient than the Class 91's?

I think the existing feed is being upgraded using a similar system to that being installed on the WCML. I believe its called the Autotransformer system and was part of the CP5 funding but I am sure Phillip Phlopp can advise.

 

[backontrack]

How about the profound lack of traffic there? Less than 2,500 entries and exits a year and a village population of no more than 100.

It stops at Newtonmore. And Newtonmore is also a small village, but also lacks a passing loop. Dalwhinnie has one of these.

 

[Liam]

It stops at Newtonmore. And Newtonmore is also a small village, but also lacks a passing loop. Dalwhinnie has one of these.

They may well both be small places, but Newtonmores population is over 1000, Dalwhinnies is less than 100. Thats a 10x difference.

 

[Altnabreac]

Most people probably use "The Chieftain" because it preferable to a ScotRail cart.

But once ScotRail have their own HSTs will that be the case any more...

Good point, that depends on how good/bad the refurb job is.

If the refurbishment is anywhere near decent then I think Scotrail will win a lot of the internal business.

Anecdotally people do choose the Chieftain for non time specific journeys from Inverness - Edinburgh at present because of the better ambience.

However worth remembering that the Scotrail HSTs will be significantly faster journey times because of the shorter formations.

There is also intended to be more advance ticket availability on Scotrail once additional stock arrives so that may also tempt more business away from East Coast.

I'm sure the Chieftain will survive but suspect the Scotrail HSTs will undermine the case for any potential extra cross border services.

 

[Highland37]

Yes I think that is certainly the case. I use it often and everyone prefers the HSTs to the suburban 170s. They can't come soon enough. Three years seems a long way off.

 

[47271]

It stops at Newtonmore. And Newtonmore is also a small village, but also lacks a passing loop. Dalwhinnie has one of these.

As the first southbound HML train of the day, only the up Sunday service stops at Newtonmore, and all other intermediate stations with the exception of Dalwhinnie. The other 13 per week only call at Pitlochry, Kingussie and Aviemore.

As the OP remarked, it's Dunkeld & Birnam that needs the extra stop first and foremost.

 

[route:oxford]

Yes I think that is certainly the case. I use it often and everyone prefers the HSTs to the suburban 170s. They can't come soon enough. Three years seems a long way off.

Not everyone.

A diminutive colleague finds them difficult to disembark from at Stirling. The platform curve and cant is not quite as bad as Bristol, but not far off.

 

[najaB]

A diminutive colleague finds them difficult to disembark from at Stirling. The platform curve and cant is not quite as bad as Bristol, but not far off.

It will be interesting to see what platform 2 at Perth will be like as it can be quite a step with 170's.

 

[Highland37]

As the first southbound HML train of the day, only the up Sunday service stops at Newtonmore, and all other intermediate stations with the exception of Dalwhinnie. The other 13 per week only call at Pitlochry, Kingussie and Aviemore.

As the OP remarked, it's Dunkeld & Birnam that needs the extra stop first and foremost.

I don't think it does as it would leave the service as the stopper pretty much.

This is a trend creeping into Scotrail also such as services from Inverness stopping at Bridge of Allan.

I travelled from Geneva to Chambery two weeks ago and the service stopped at only a few places...bliss....