Highland Chieftain schedule

[70014IronDuke]

Why is the up Highland Chieftain scheduled to depart so early?

At 07.55 from Inverness, it means

a) tourists can't have a decent lie-in if they want to head for London

b) and, more importantly, I'd have thought - nobody from the Far North or Kyle lines can rely on a train to catch it. (the first Invernet train due to arrive at 07.44 - hardly a reliable connection, i'd have thought.)

If it could be swapped to run in the 08.45 (or perhaps 08.55) slot, - with the 08.45 put rescheduled for an 07.50-ish departure - not only would it ease the above two issues, but Carrbridge and Newtonmore passengers would also be able to change into the train at Perth.

Perhaps it is because a GNER crew are lodging overnight, and they want to reduce time payments?

As an aside, I suspect Dunkeld and Birnam to Perth commuters (or would-be commuters) must curse the down Chieftain too for not stopping at their local.

It means they have no train back from Perth between 16.17 and 18.58. So much for a Green Transport policy. :roll:

 

[najaB]

Why is the up Highland Chieftain scheduled to depart so early?

So that it gets to London with some of the day left.

 

[jimm]

Why is the up Highland Chieftain scheduled to depart so early?

At 07.55 from Inverness, it means

a) tourists can't have a decent lie-in if they want to head for London

b) and, more importantly, I'd have thought - nobody from the Far North or Kyle lines can rely on a train to catch it. (the first Invernet train due to arrive at 07.44 - hardly a reliable connection, i'd have thought.)

If it could be swapped to run in the 08.45 (or perhaps 08.55) slot, - with the 08.45 put rescheduled for an 07.50-ish departure - not only would it ease the above two issues, but Carrbridge and Newtonmore passengers would also be able to change into the train at Perth.

Perhaps it is because a GNER crew are lodging overnight, and they want to reduce time payments?

As an aside, I suspect Dunkeld and Birnam to Perth commuters (or would-be commuters) must curse the down Chieftain too for not stopping at their local.

It means they have no train back from Perth between 16.17 and 18.58. So much for a Green Transport policy. :roll:

Don't forget the HST has another job to do when it gets to Kings Cross. I've no idea what that outward working in the afternoon peak is but if the HST wasn't there for another hour, you might be looking at a lot of rediagramming to find something else to cover its duty.

And you do the punctuality of the 06.16 from Ardgay a dis-service. According to realtimetrains it has arrived in inverness on time every day this week. The 06.58 from Elgin, due at 07.44, was also tediously reliably, arriving a minute or two early all week.

Push the Chieftain's departure back to 08.45 or later and passengers off the next arrival from Lairg, due at 08.12, would have a wait of over 30 minutes and the 06.14 from Aberdeen, due at 08.34, seems to be in the habit of being four or five minutes late, so rather more of a risk of missing a connection if relying on that train.

If you made it 0855 or 0900 to allow a connection from the 0850 arrival from Kyle then passengers from Dingwall and Invergordon would be stuck at Inverness for almost 50 minutes - and how many people will want to make a start from Kyle at 06.15 anyway?

If that was the departure time of the Chieftain from Inverness, you might have a point, but as a compromise, 0755 doesn't look too bad. The tourists don't have to get up that early and there are connecting trains from all the main towns near to Inverness.

 

[306024]

Don't forget the HST has another job to do when it gets to Kings Cross. I've no idea what that outward working in the afternoon peak is but if the HST wasn't there for another hour, you might be looking at a lot of rediagramming to find something else to cover its duty.

Looking at KGX platform working on RTT it appears to form the 17.00 Kings Cross - Edinburgh.

Assuming it could be pathed an hour later (single line sections on the Highland main line) it would then pick up the 12.30 path from Edinburgh, which would mean the 09.50 from Aberdeen having to start an hour earlier to compensate. Lots more implications no doubt but it is beginning to unravel already.

 

[ainsworth74]

Looking at KGX platform working on RTT it appears to form the 17.00 Kings Cross - Edinburgh.

The 125Group have current HST diagrams including those for VTEC which can be found here.

These tell us that Monday to Friday (on weekends the Chieftain does depart later from Inverness) that the HST doing the Chieftain does the following:

3A15 06+22 NL-HGT, 1A15 0734 HGT-KGX, 1S16 1200 KGX-INV

It then over-nights at Inverness and does the following the next day:

1E13 0755 INV-KGX, 1S26 1700 KGX-EDB

So southbound the Chieftain then goes straight back to Edinburgh on the 1700 so you'd need to re-diagram that service if the Chieftain arrived later. Thankfully as it's to a wired destination you have the whole VTEC fleet to play with because if it was to an off-wire destination you'd also need to find another HST to run it.

 

[backontrack]

I've also wondered why the train doesn't call at Dalwhinnie.

 

[D6975]

An unfortunate side effect of the Pendos on the WCML was the demise of the Clansman.
10 : XX off Inverness it was a much more attractive move for those not wanting to be up at the crack of dawn. The early morning Kyle and far North inbounds both used to make Inverness before 10 too, so even passengers from the far north could get to Euston in daytime with just the one change.

 

[berneyarms]

I'm not too sure tourists will be that bothered - they can save on breakfast in their hotels by having it in 1st Class on the train and enjoying the Highland scenery (if they have any sense they would be availing of the excellent value 1st Class Britrail passes).

 

[Ianno87]

An unfortunate side effect of the Pendos on the WCML was the demise of the Clansman.
10 : XX off Inverness it was a much more attractive move for those not wanting to be up at the crack of dawn. The early morning Kyle and far North inbounds both used to make Inverness before 10 too, so even passengers from the far north could get to Euston in daytime with just the one change.

The Clansman ended years before Pendos were even a twinkle in the designer's eye. Probably more related to the advent of fixed formation push-pull Mk3 sets on the WCML in the late 80s.

 

[PHILIPE]

A case of a long journey and many calls which means you can't please everybody.

 

[jimm]

An unfortunate side effect of the Pendos on the WCML was the demise of the Clansman.
10 : XX off Inverness it was a much more attractive move for those not wanting to be up at the crack of dawn. The early morning Kyle and far North inbounds both used to make Inverness before 10 too, so even passengers from the far north could get to Euston in daytime with just the one change.

The Clansman last ran in, I think, 1991 or 92, so years before Pendolinos.

Since when is 07.55 the crack of dawn if someone has spent the night in Inverness? You might want to get all misty-eyed about bygone days but in order to get on the Clansman, passengers would have had to leave Wick or Thurso at 5.30am, which is more like my idea of crack of dawn.

Nor, for much of its life, did the Clansman serve either Edinburgh (only going that way in its last few years) or Glasgow, so anyone wanting to reach either of Scotland's two major cities had to change trains and it took something like 10 hours over the journey to or from London - an 8pm arrival at Euston isn't really my idea of daytime.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Clansman ended years before Pendos were even a twinkle in the designer's eye. Probably more related to the advent of fixed formation push-pull Mk3 sets on the WCML in the late 80s.

Quite correct.

 

[Class 170101]

The Clansman ended years before Pendos were even a twinkle in the designer's eye. Probably more related to the advent of fixed formation push-pull Mk3 sets on the WCML in the late 80s.

The Clansman went because London to Inverness was quicker via ECML than WCML. The Clansman started from New Street in its final years.

Don't forget the HST has another job to do when it gets to Kings Cross. I've no idea what that outward working in the afternoon peak is but if the HST wasn't there for another hour, you might be looking at a lot of rediagramming to find something else to cover its duty.

Push the Chieftain's departure back to 08.45 or later and passengers off the next arrival from Lairg, due at 08.12, would have a wait of over 30 minutes and the 06.14 from Aberdeen, due at 08.34, seems to be in the habit of being four or five minutes late, so rather more of a risk of missing a connection if relying on that train.

Pushing the Highland Chieftain back has been looked at over the years without much success. Also departing earlier from London - again without much sucess.

So southbound the Chieftain then goes straight back to Edinburgh on the 1700 so you'd need to re-diagram that service if the Chieftain arrived later. Thankfully as it's to a wired destination you have the whole VTEC fleet to play with because if it was to an off-wire destination you'd also need to find another HST to run it.

The 17:00 and 18:00 Kings Cross to Edinburgh have to be HSTs due to power limitations in the OLE at that time, many electric trains out of Kings Cross at that time. Previously the Kings Cross to Skipton service used to be the HST vice 17:00 due to power limitations out of Leeds banning Class 91s to Skipton.
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Nor, for much of its life, did the Clansman serve either Edinburgh (only going that way in its last few years) or Glasgow, so anyone wanting to reach either of Scotland's two major cities had to change trains and it took something like 10 hours over the journey to or from London - an 8pm arrival at Euston isn't really my idea of daytime.

Indeed the Clansman was for many years the only train to serve Coatbridge Central. A Traction chnage being needed at Mossend.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Don't forget the HST has another job to do when it gets to Kings Cross. I've no idea what that outward working in the afternoon peak is but if the HST wasn't there for another hour, you might be looking at a lot of rediagramming to find something else to cover its duty.

I suspect this is the core reason. that is to say, not the specific duty involved ex KX, but the need to ustilise the HST set for as many hours as reasonably possible in revenue-earning service.

And you do the punctuality of the 06.16 from Ardgay a dis-service. According to realtimetrains it has arrived in inverness on time every day this week. The 06.58 from Elgin, due at 07.44, was also tediously reliably, arriving a minute or two early all week.

I have no doubt the good Scotrail crews work hard to keep trains punctual - but if catching the southbound Chieftan was critical to your schedule, would you really feel comfortable catching either the Ardgay or Elgin train into Inverness? I know I would not.

Push the Chieftain's departure back to 08.45 or later and passengers off the next arrival from Lairg, due at 08.12, would have a wait of over 30 minutes and the 06.14 from Aberdeen, due at 08.34, seems to be in the habit of being four or five minutes late, so rather more of a risk of missing a connection if relying on that train.

If you made it 0855 or 0900 to allow a connection from the 0850 arrival from Kyle then passengers from Dingwall and Invergordon would be stuck at Inverness for almost 50 minutes - and how many people will want to make a start from Kyle at 06.15 anyway?

I'd budget a 30 mins wait for an important trip on a unique service like the Chieftan as about right, frankly. 50 mins is a bit long, but I'd rather that than arrive at Inverness 5 minutes after the southbound train had pulled out.

If that was the departure time of the Chieftain from Inverness, you might have a point, but as a compromise, 0755 doesn't look too bad. The tourists don't have to get up that early and there are connecting trains from all the main towns near to Inverness.

Tourists staying in central Inverness, leaving the hotel/BB at, say, 07.30 for the train, would presumably have to rise at 06.30. anyone on the fringes of the city would add 20 minutes to that. Not at all impossible, but off-putting for many, I'd imagine, who'd far prefer a later start.

Has to be a compromise, of course. But I suspect any extra loadings from Inverness with an 08.55 departure would not offset the loss of utilisation of the HST unit with the return working - it's all down to dosh raised in the end.

Presumably there is not a business case for a second working around 10.00 - 10.30.

 

[me123]

I have no doubt the good Scotrail crews work hard to keep trains punctual - but if catching the southbound Chieftan was critical to your schedule, would you really feel comfortable catching either the Ardgay or Elgin train into Inverness? I know I would not.

I can't speak for the Ardgay train, but I regularly caught the Elgin train to connect to the Chieftain when I lived there and I was never let down.

The train may leave Inverness quite early, and arrive quite late. But that's important. The stock needs to be used elsewhere later in the day. And people do need to connect onto other services, so leaving Inverness later may jeopardise that. It is quite well timed to pick up a healthy load heading to Edinburgh as well. Anyone wishing to depart later can make a transfer at Edinburgh, or Glasgow, should they need to. If tourists need to catch that train, I'm sure they'll be able to awake themselves up for it.

The train has run at that time for many years with no real gripes as far as I'm aware, and with Scotrail services also operating frequently throughout the day I really don't think there's need for another East Coast run.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm quite content with the times of the southbound Chieftan as it is, and most hotels and B&B's in central Inverness seem to be familiar with the number of guests leaving in time for the 7:55 departure and do what they can to assist. I actually quite enjoy a relaxed breakfast on board that service, and looking at how few passengers are often seated in Standard class on departure, then I guess I'm not alone.

Presumably there is not a business case for a second working around 10.00 - 10.30.

I have previously argued for a second daily service between Inverness and London, possibly timed closer to the reverse journeys of the existing service (i.e. leave Inverness in the middle of the day and leave London early morning) and which would either stop at Peterborough or else be routed via the West Coast and Birmingham. I believe that it would be beneficial to many more than just tourists.

 

[Class 170101]

If BR was still around I would favour a service from the South West via the WCML to / from Inverness rather than another service to / from London.

 

[jimm]

I have no doubt the good Scotrail crews work hard to keep trains punctual - but if catching the southbound Chieftan was critical to your schedule, would you really feel comfortable catching either the Ardgay or Elgin train into Inverness? I know I would not.

I'd budget a 30 mins wait for an important trip on a unique service like the Chieftan as about right, frankly. 50 mins is a bit long, but I'd rather that than arrive at Inverness 5 minutes after the southbound train had pulled out.

Why should anyone have to allow 30 minutes? 11 minutes looks like a perfectly robust allowance for connections and this is Inverness, not somewhere around London where lines are working at capacity at 7.45am with the inherent risk of delays due to congestion. What is going to be getting in the way of those trains from Ardgay and Elgin, which are approaching the station on two separate routes as well?

Tourists staying in central Inverness, leaving the hotel/BB at, say, 07.30 for the train, would presumably have to rise at 06.30. anyone on the fringes of the city would add 20 minutes to that. Not at all impossible, but off-putting for many, I'd imagine, who'd far prefer a later start.

People will do what they have to do to make the train, coach, flight, bus, etc on their holiday if it's the one that fits in with their travel plans. Some tourists may even drag themselves out of bed to be on the easyJet flight from Inverness to Gatwick at 6.45am.

Presumably there is not a business case for a second working around 10.00 - 10.30.

Unlikely, just look down the road at Inverness airport. easyJet and Flybe services mean London, Birmingham, Manchester and Bristol all have regular flights from Inverness. Also BA is resuming a year-round Heathrow-Inverness service next May at the same time as KLM starts an Amsterdam service, at least for the summer.

No point tieing up another intercity train in the Highlands for several hours each day in the teeth of that sort of competition when it could make much more money for a TOC working to Dundee and Aberdeen, for example. Far better to focus on making sure that the Scotrail HSTs make good connections at Edinburgh with Virgin and the beefed-up TransPennine services.

 

[Class 170101]

The hotels in Inverness are generally geared up for the Highland Chieftain leaving at 07:55 and arriving at 20:05 on a daily basis.

In terms of tying up resources the train is running in marginal time to / from Inverness.

The train crews are probably more inefficient now than in BR days as a northern Scottish based depot would have operated these services as far as Edinburgh and it wouldn't have been Newcastle depot running these trains to / from Inverness and Aberdeen.

 

[najaB]

Unlikely, just look down the road at Inverness airport. easyJet and Flybe services mean London, Birmingham, Manchester and Bristol all have regular flights from Inverness. Also BA is resuming a year-round Heathrow-Inverness service next May at the same time as KLM starts an Amsterdam service, at least for the summer.

But some people prefer the train, there's luggage to considers (no baggage charge for a suitcase on the train), plus not everybody is making the journey all the way to London.

No point tieing up another intercity train in the Highlands for several hours each day in the teeth of that sort of competition when it could make much more money for a TOC working to Dundee and Aberdeen, for example. Far better to focus on making sure that the Scotrail HSTs make good connections at Edinburgh with Virgin and the beefed-up TransPennine services.

Agreed. Though there is a marked preference to through journeys if the connections are convenient (and cross-platform where possible), with staff around to provide assistance then they are tolerable. Having said that, there's going to be more than enough HSTs going spare as the 800's come online so there might be scope to trial a second service.

 

[jimm]

But some people prefer the train, there's luggage to considers (no baggage charge for a suitcase on the train), plus not everybody is making the journey all the way to London.
Agreed. Though there is a marked preference to through journeys if the connections are convenient (and cross-platform where possible), with staff around to provide assistance then they are tolerable. Having said that, there's going to be more than enough HSTs going spare as the 800's come online so there might be scope to trial a second service.

Some people may prefer the train, others prefer the speed of flying and - given some of the fares that both Virgin and Caledonian Sleeper ask people to stump up - they may also save money paying the air fare and the charge for a big suitcase.

BR ran both the Chieftain and the Clansman for seven or eight years - and there were two overnight trains as well during the 1980s - but ended up ditching the Clansman at a time when there was nothing like the air competition there is now, never mind what will be flying from May, so what makes you think another daytime London service would be viable? It just looks like another solution in search of a problem, I'm afraid.

 

[najaB]

BR ran both the Chieftain and the Clansman for seven or eight years - and there were two overnight trains as well during the 1980s - but ended up ditching the Clansman at a time when there was nothing like the air competition there is now

The population of Inverness (and the surrounding areas) has also grown considerably over the last thirty years or so.

...so what makes you think another daytime London service would be viable? It just looks like another solution in search of a problem, I'm afraid.

I don't know if it would be viable or not, but there is nothing saying that just because the current level of service is what we've got, that it is all we'll always get.

 

[6Gman]

The train may leave Inverness quite early, and arrive quite late. But that's important. The stock needs to be used elsewhere later in the day. And people do need to connect onto other services, so leaving Inverness later may jeopardise that. It is quite well timed to pick up a healthy load heading to Edinburgh as well. Anyone wishing to depart later can make a transfer at Edinburgh, or Glasgow, should they need to. If tourists need to catch that train, I'm sure they'll be able to awake themselves up for it.

The train has run at that time for many years with no real gripes as far as I'm aware, and with Scotrail services also operating frequently throughout the day I really don't think there's need for another East Coast run.

I think Inverness has been fortunate to retain its direct daytime link to London (think of the many, many larger places which do not enjoy that facility) and having a full-length HST pottering uphill and downdale is hardly the most efficient use of an expensive unit.

A bit of a compromise on departure times seems a price worth paying.

 

[route:oxford]

If there was to be a new cross-border service operating from Inverness, then it would be more helpful if it were to open up new direct options rather than replicating an existing route.

But then you hit all the problematic written and unwritten rules...

Can't run into Queen Street upper as that would mean a change of end for the driver.

Can't run into Edinburgh and down the West Coast as that would mean calling at Haymarket twice.

Can't abstract Scotrail income by running comfortable long trains in the peaks.

Can't run additional services on the Scotrail network using stock that does not have retention toilets.

 

[najaB]

Can't run into Edinburgh and down the West Coast as that would mean calling at Haymarket twice.

Well, it would mean passing through Haymarket twice, no hard and fast requirement to actually call both times. And if it's that big a deal, a trip around the Sub would fix that.

 

[cf111]

Can't run into Queen Street upper as that would mean a change of end for the driver.

And if it did then it couldn't be a HST at anything near 2+9.

 

[Class 170101]

Can't run into Edinburgh and down the West Coast as that would mean calling at Haymarket twice.

Not relevant.

East Coast services from Inverness / Aberdeen / Glasgow Central pass through Haymatrket twice if diverted between Edinburgh and Newcastle via Carlisle. They just don't stop at Haymarket on the Newcastle to Edinburgh leg of their journey.

 

[Ianno87]

Well, it would mean passing through Haymarket twice, no hard and fast requirement to actually call both times. And if it's that big a deal, a trip around the Sub would fix that.

When XC services ran Aberdeen - Edinburgh - WCML - Brum - South West until 2007, passing through Haymarket twice wasn't seen as a big deal.

 

[gtr driver]

"I suspect this is the core reason. that is to say, not the specific duty involved ex KX, but the need to ustilise the HST set for as many hours as reasonably possible in revenue-earning service."

Unfortunately this is the reality of running any service, public or private, assets have to be exploited for maximum return. The pit is not bottomless. There are many threads here about not being able to have extra stock or staff available either regularly or for sudden spikes.

 

[jimm]

The population of Inverness (and the surrounding areas) has also grown considerably over the last thirty years or so.

But do they want to get on trains to London that much? Better services within Scotland - and good connections at Edinburgh - are going to be a far better use of scarce money and resources under almost any circumstances. Assuming that demand for rail does not fall anyway once the Scottish Government has created its dual-carriagway super-highway through the Highlands...