Highbury and Islington GN Platforms

[Skimpot flyer]

So now that the former Northern City Line has a seven-days-a-week service between Moorgate and Finsbury Park (and thence to Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North), is it not about time that the GN platforms had a drastic overhaul ? I was on the Northbound platform today, and have got used to the poor station environment, but infrequent travellers to minor stations who have been accustomed to departing from Kings Cross at weekends will not find Highbury & Islington a nice place to wait for a train. There are no toilets (and none on the GN trains that call there).

Logically, the time for installing updated route maps, improved lighting, and carrying-out a drastic clean of the tunnel walls would have been before the 13 December timetable change, when there was no service at weekends. So, does this mean that the only way they could now do a clean-up would be by a series of weekend possessions, thus temporarily diverting the service once again, to Kings Cross ?

I can't help thinking that the wall poster in my photo should read
'Nobody should face Highbury And Islington alone'

They can keep the Network South East retro tiling, though

 

[Tubeboy]

A weekend closure wouldn't be too much of pain. Quick tube journey from Kings X to all affected stations, bar Essex Road.

 

[me123]

I know this is probably not what you were trying to say, but you appear to be comparing waiting for a train at Highbury and Islington station to cancer. I can't help but find that sentiment to be rather odd, and I wonder if it's the most appropriate comparison?

I have been to Highbury and Islington, and I haven't noticed anything particularly wrong with it to be honest. It's a bit of a dingy tube platform in essence. I can't imagine it is particularly troublesome to those who use it. There's hundreds of very similar platforms all across London. People do make longer journeys on the tube, and I've rarely (if ever) heard of any complaints about the lack of toilet facilities on the District line. People have been using this station in this state for some time; in fact I'm sure the vast majority of passengers will still pass through during the week. I don't see why opening at weekends suddenly mandates full refresh for a small number of people?

I would, however, agree that it could do with a refresh. It is a bit dingy.a But given the NSE logos still in situ I think it's fair to say that it's been that way for some time. As you rightly point out, I think if they were planning to do up the line by way of weekend closures, they'd probably have done so at some point in the last few decades when there was a permanent weekend closure on the line. So I suspect that, whilst the refurbishment would be worthwhile, it's probably not going to happen any time soon.

 

[TrenHotel]

Nobody has (or should have to) wait around on those platforms for very long, and there's always the well-lit TfL Vic Line infrastructure just behind. But yes, it (along with Essex Road, Old Street and Moorgate) does feel like a creepy reminder of underfunded, underlit and unloved old times on the Tube. Apparently the old London Transport tiling and roundels are still there underneath the BR facades.

Essex Road is the really creepy one, with few staff and spooky passageways, but may well now be the only station built as an underground Tube railway with a working ticket office. What goes around...

I'm strangely fond of the Northern City as the abandoned runt of the Tube litter, and am pleased that it's finally got decent opening hours back (even if my excuses for using them have long gone). Not expecting the Network SouthEast logos, the mad line maps to Cambridge, or even TfL's signing for the line as "trains to Welwyn" or "trains to Stevenage" (depending on what station you're at) to change, though...



Diamond Geezer's trip on the Northern City

 

[ScotGG]

Not just inside where there's issues - outside they could do SO much more to make people realise there's stations along the route and promote them.

Here's Essex Road station: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5..._1dOn5YudDg0fgb19Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Put up big signs (there's ample space) to entice people, plus adverts for the service and also provide a welcoming sight. TOCs are often so rubbish at this and TfL excel. It costs little but can achieve much. Often with TOC stations it's a small sign hidden away which 90% of people passing can't see. Poor lighting and areas around the entrance doors too.

 

[Tubeboy]

I agree Essex Road is creepy, better now than in past years though....just.

 

[Hadders]

Nobody has (or should have to) wait around on those platforms for very long

I agree when on the way into London but coming out it's potentially a different matter.

Consider a trip from, say Gordon Hill to central London at the weekend. Previously the train went to Kings Cross where you'd change to the Underground at Kings Cross for onward travel to your destination (ok, I know it would be quicker to change at Finsbury but with kids in tow it's better to just stay on to Kings Cross where there are better facilities). On the way back you'd make sure anyone needing the loo went at Kings Cross.

Now, on the way back you get the Underground to Highbury and Islington. You just miss the train to Gordon Hill and realise you have to wait 30 minutes for the next one. The kids need the toilet!

There should be some provision at Highbury.

 

[LLivery]

The condition of the Northern City stations are up there with the worst in London. The contrast with LU platforms and the recently rebuilt LO platforms at Highbury should be embarrassing to GTR. With the new Desiro City units coming, higher frequencies and more station staff than before, a refurb should come to "relaunch" the GN suburbans, LO style.

 

[edwin_m]

Now, on the way back you get the Underground to Highbury and Islington. You just miss the train to Gordon Hill and realise you have to wait 30 minutes for the next one. The kids need the toilet!

Wouldn't changing at Finsbury Park instead solve this problem? According to National Rail toilets are provided there on the main line platforms.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Highbury needs a massive overhaul generally, it really is a poor station building which lacks any sort of facilities. Especially considering that there were over 39 million entries and exits in 2014-15. The 60's have a lot to answer for.

 

[Hadders]

Wouldn't changing at Finsbury Park instead solve this problem? According to National Rail toilets are provided there on the main line platforms.

It would but the interchange at Highbury is cross platform, at Finsbury it's via the spiral staircases which is far from ideal with children and/or luggage in tow.

Also, the toilet facilities at Finsbury are not exactly in great condition or numerous.

 

[Saint66]

Maybe GTR haven't done anything because they're just waiting for TFL to absorb it into LO once the new trains arrive?

 

[swt_passenger]

It has been said in previous discussions that the main problem is that the NSE decoration is part of the permanent fabric of the station, and the underground fire regulations prevent a simple vinyl covering being applied over the obsolete signs.

 

[Max]

I agree when on the way into London but coming out it's potentially a different matter.

Consider a trip from, say Gordon Hill to central London at the weekend. Previously the train went to Kings Cross where you'd change to the Underground at Kings Cross for onward travel to your destination (ok, I know it would be quicker to change at Finsbury but with kids in tow it's better to just stay on to Kings Cross where there are better facilities). On the way back you'd make sure anyone needing the loo went at Kings Cross.

Now, on the way back you get the Underground to Highbury and Islington. You just miss the train to Gordon Hill and realise you have to wait 30 minutes for the next one. The kids need the toilet!

There should be some provision at Highbury.

Completely agree. I frequently travel to see my girlfriend in New Barnet, or we would head up there together at the weekend after a day in central London. Despite the convenience of the cross-platform interchange at Highbury, I would always look forward to taking the train from Kings Cross at the weekend.

On Sundays in particular, the trains are only every 30 mins (and frequently curtailed to hourly at the moment thanks to GTR's 'staff shortages'). At Kings Cross you can buy a drink and while away some time if there's a wait, or use the facilities, but there's none of that at Highbury and Islington. I agree that it's completely fine on weekdays when there's effectively a metro frequency service and you don't have to hang around for long, but the station is totally inadequate at weekends for what is rapidly becoming a major interchange between lines.

 

[Big Mac]

It would but the interchange at Highbury is cross platform, at Finsbury it's via the spiral staircases which is far from ideal with children and/or luggage in tow.

Also, the toilet facilities at Finsbury are not exactly in great condition or numerous.

The spiral staircases at Finsbury Park would prove quite challenging with children and heavy luggage in tow.

However, I believe that in the middle of these staircases there used to be lifts, of the hydraulically actuated variety, would it not be possible to reinstate these in some fashion?

I fully appreciate that installing new lifts is both expensive and disruptive, but given the importance of this station as an interchange, could the justification be made?

If anyone is in a position to give a ballpark figure for this work to be completed I'd be most interested to hear it...

 

[Hadders]

The spiral staircases at Finsbury Park would prove quite challenging with children and heavy luggage in tow.

However, I believe that in the middle of these staircases there used to be lifts, of the hydraulically actuated variety, would it not be possible to reinstate these in some fashion?

I fully appreciate that installing new lifts is both expensive and disruptive, but given the importance of this station as an interchange, could the justification be made?

If anyone is in a position to give a ballpark figure for this work to be completed I'd be most interested to hear it...

We had a 6 month+ closure of the spiral staircases last year while they installed additional spiral staircases in disused lift shafts (immediately behind the existing staircases) so I don't think it would be possible to install lifts in this position.

Remember that you also need to get the lifts to the mainline platforms, not just to the concourse level. The mainline platforms are above ground level with the stairs being quite steep.

 

[gtr driver]

If it isn't in the franchise doc, there's no incentive to do it, however good an idea it seems. That's the system. See also the removal of catering almost as soon as the new term started. An own goal to my mind as it further diminishes the perceived quality of service even more. But it wasn't in the franchise, and is a loss maker, so out it goes. Refurbing the GN would be nothing more than a cost to GTR. The franchise type ie management contract has no room for manoeuvre either. If in the next conventional franchise, a bidder can prove that station improvements will bring revenue and thus up the premium potential for the Treasury, then that will be a different matter.

 

[Hadders]

I believe Highbury and Islington is operated by London Underground so presumably they would need to arrange for toilets to be installed.

Surprised this hasn't been considered given how busy this station has become over the last few years.

 

[urpert]

The condition of the Northern City stations are up there with the worst in London. The contrast with LU platforms and the recently rebuilt LO platforms at Highbury should be embarrassing to GTR. With the new Desiro City units coming, higher frequencies and more station staff than before, a refurb should come to "relaunch" the GN suburbans, LO style.

I imagine they're hanging on as long as possible in the hope that LO/TfL will offer to take the services off their hands.

 

[swt_passenger]

I imagine they're hanging on as long as possible in the hope that LO/TfL will offer to take the services off their hands.

Yes, that'll be it. It is the only possible explanation for the incumbent TOC ordering a brand new train fleet... :roll:

 

[urpert]

Yes, that'll be it. It is the only possible explanation for the incumbent TOC ordering a brand new train fleet... :roll:

Surely rolling stock leases are transferable?

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely rolling stock leases are transferable?

Yes, but doing nothing if the line was going to be transferred to TfL would avoid increased leasing costs completely. I don't think such a transfer is currently on the agenda, despite people keeping on suggesting it in these forums.

 

[urpert]

Yes, but doing nothing if the line was going to be transferred to TfL would avoid increased leasing costs completely. I don't think such a transfer is currently on the agenda, despite people keeping on suggesting it in these forums.

True. And I admit that having read the rumours on here I was completely taken by surprise by the new stock announcement.

 

[SPADTrap]

If it isn't in the franchise doc, there's no incentive to do it, however good an idea it seems. That's the system. See also the removal of catering almost as soon as the new term started. An own goal to my mind as it further diminishes the perceived quality of service even more. But it wasn't in the franchise, and is a loss maker, so out it goes. Refurbing the GN would be nothing more than a cost to GTR. The franchise type ie management contract has no room for manoeuvre either. If in the next conventional franchise, a bidder can prove that station improvements will bring revenue and thus up the premium potential for the Treasury, then that will be a different matter.

I'm lost in the details of franchise models but if that's the case it's depressingly broken

 

[urbophile]

An instructive reminder to us northerners that even though London gets the lion's share of transport improvements we can be thankful that Merseyrail is like a jewel-encrusted version of the Moscow metro in comparison to the GN. The Northern Line (Merseyrail not LU) platforms are the last to be upgraded and even in their old state look considerably more civilised than Highbury and Islington.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apart from Essex Road, and Drayton Park, aren't London Underground the station management for the whole of the shared stations anyway?

Could it be that LU are still the freeholder and are responsible for major refurbishment projects, despite the operation being with NR and the TOC.

Does anyone know for sure?

 

[greatkingrat]

The spiral staircases at Finsbury Park would prove quite challenging with children and heavy luggage in tow.

However, I believe that in the middle of these staircases there used to be lifts, of the hydraulically actuated variety, would it not be possible to reinstate these in some fashion?

I fully appreciate that installing new lifts is both expensive and disruptive, but given the importance of this station as an interchange, could the justification be made?

If anyone is in a position to give a ballpark figure for this work to be completed I'd be most interested to hear it...

Lifts are already planned for Finsbury Park by 2019.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...k-station---new-entrance-and-step-free-access

 

[A-driver]

Apart from Essex Road, and Drayton Park, aren't London Underground the station management for the whole of the shared stations anyway?

Could it be that LU are still the freeholder and are responsible for major refurbishment projects, despite the operation being with NR and the TOC.

Does anyone know for sure?

LU own and manage all stations apart from Essex road and Drayton park. GTR just staff their platforms. During the recent tube strikes where LU staff were not present at some stations the GTR staff had to leave the platforms and our trains had to run through non stop as without LU staff present the station must be closed.

Toilets won't happen at any of the stations-not at platform level anyway. Drivers have been asking for platform toilets at Moorgate for decades and it simply won't happen-too expensive and invasive to install pumps for water and drainage in the old tunnels that far underground. It's cheaper to pay for the delays whilst a driver goes upstairs to use the staff toilets on the circle line platform.

GTR will never pay any money for refurbishing these stations-they don't make nearly enough revenue from that line. Everyone is on travel cards/oysters. The only line they are likely to invest in is the Kings Lynn-kings cross as that's their main revenue earner for the GN-Cambridge to kings cross. Same reason FCC never touched the NCL stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

LU own and manage all stations apart from Essex road and Drayton park.

I did already point that out at the start of my post...

GTR will never pay any money for refurbishing these stations-they don't make nearly enough revenue from that line. Everyone is on travel cards/oysters.

The fact that people are mainly using travelcards or Oyster shouldn't in itself affect GTR's revenue. It is still all supposedly shared out between TfL and the TOCs according to surveys and (in the case of Oyster) detailed analysis of entries and exits.

 

[A-driver]

I did already point that out at the start of my post...



The fact that people are mainly using travelcards or Oyster shouldn't in itself affect GTR's revenue. It is still all supposedly shared out between TfL and the TOCs according to surveys and (in the case of Oyster) detailed analysis of entries and exits.

I know you didn't-then you went on to ask if anyone knew for sure so, as I do know for sure, I answered your question.

The NCL is still a lower revenue earning line and not one that any TOC who has run trains on it has ever prioritised. As I say, I certainly can't see GTR investing anything in these stations as they certainly don't have the spare cash to throw about at such things.