High Speed Upgrade Ticket

[dmacw]

I'm not convinced I've been sold the right ticket.

I have a Clapham Junction to Ramsgate PRIV priced at £9.90. With the route London Not Und.

I went to the ticket office at Ramsgate and asked him to excess the return so I could use it on High Speed. I expected it to cost £2.50ish.

Instead I got a HS Upgrade priced at £1.35. Route 'Plus High Speed' and it's routed Ramsgate to London Terminals.

Correct or not so correct?

 

[bb21]

There is nothing else this ticket can be excessed to. How did you work out that it should be around £2.50? There is no alternative routeing for this journey apart from London Not Und.

That said, according to SouthEastern's own website, where it specifically states:

Tickets that are not valid on the high speed route specifically state ‘Not Valid on HS1’, unless a supplement has been purchased.

I am of the opinion that it is debatable whether you required a supplement in the first place.

 

[dmacw]

I went to the ticket machine first at Ramsgate to have a look at the options (I know I was looking at the route in reverse on the machine)

There were two options, London Not Und and HS1. Roughly the first was £40 and the latter £60. £20 difference, £5 with PRIV, one way excess £2.50.

Or have I got it all wrong?

 

[bb21]

Ah, the fares for this journey are not reversible. If you look up the fares from a ticket machine at Ramsgate, the fares would be from Ramsgate.

The PRIV fares for both directions are as follows:

From Ramsgate
To Clapham Junction

+Any Permitted
SDR £15.65
SDS £9.80

+Not Valid on HS1
SDR £14.00
SDS £8.50

From Clapham Junction
To Ramsgate

London Not Und
SDR £9.90
SDS £8.50

 

[soil]

This is actually quite straightforward

NRE says:

Outward: ROUTE OF TICKET LONDON NOT UND - You must travel via London. Transfer between London Stations is available on the Docklands Light Railway and First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) or by foot. Travel is not available on London Underground. This fare is only valid on trains travelling between certain times.

Ramsgate - Clapham Junction (returning on a CLJ - RAM return) has the route LONDON

"If the routeing code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to
cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the
"from London" leg of the journey.

If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London
transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases
the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the
‘permitted route’ map combinations. "

So the permitted routes are:

Clapham Junction - London Terminals (any permitted route)
London Terminals - Ramsgate (any permitted route)

You may join these two permitted routes at any point within London along the permitted routes

"on the Docklands Light Railway and First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) or by foot"

Ramsgate - London has numerous permitted routes.

HK HS LD LD+VC LK LK+SD+LB

No surprise to learn that HS covers the high-speed train

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=48

So your ticket is valid from Ramsgate to St Pancras.

To get from St P to Clapham Junction you could travel from St Pancras to London Bridge by FCC, from London Bridge to East Croydon, and then back to CLJ.

Or you could simply buy an underground ticket from St Pancras to Vauxhall (aka 'on foot') and continue from there to CLJ by train.

It's valid in both directions to start/finish short from St Pancras, and is cheaper than +HS ticket from London Terminals.

It's also cheaper to buy a CDR CLJ-RAM (£31.90) with Return Travel 'By Any Train' and throw away the outbound, than to buy a RAM-London Terminals SDS (£38.10) or CDS (£36.20).

 

[Steel-River]

Interesting topic (for me at least).
On the same "track" sorry for the pun..Can someone please tell me if FREE passes (as opposed to Privs) are allowed to be used on the Javelins.

 

[bb21]

To get from St P to Clapham Junction you could travel from St Pancras to London Bridge by FCC, from London Bridge to East Croydon, and then back to CLJ.

No. You cannot travel via East Croydon.

The permitted route goes from London Bridge to Clapham Junction via Waterloo East then Waterloo.

 

[soil]

No. You cannot travel via East Croydon.

The permitted route goes from London Bridge to Clapham Junction via Waterloo East then Waterloo.

The Routeing Guide says

Clapham Junction - London Group

Maps LB LK PD SC WX

According to ATOC, http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69969 all of these stations are 'appropriate' from CLJ to London Terminals:

Blackfriars
Charing Cross
Cannon Street
City Thameslink
London Bridge
Victoria
Vauxhall
Waterloo East
Waterloo

And indeed this is confirmed by looking at the maps above:

LB
the obvious direct routes to Victoria, Vauxhall Waterloo
CLJ - VIC
CLJ - WAT (via Vauxhall)

But also:
CLJ - East Croydon, ECR-London Bridge, Blackfriars and City Thameslink, plus CLJ-ECR,ECR-LBG,LBG-Cannon Street

CLJ - WAT, Waterloo East - Charing Cross

Map LK comes with some ludicrous options:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=62
CLJ - Beckenham Junction - Victoria (via Herne Hill)
CLJ - BKJ - Bromley South, then onwards to LBG (and from there changing to WAE) or BFR

Map SC is interesting

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=95

CLJ - Streatham-BFR is mundane enough, but it's valid out as far as Epsom, albeit on some tortuous routes.

The other two maps are mundane.

And of course a quick check on NRE shows that a £2.80 single CLJ - LBG is entirely valid to travel ECR -LBG

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/CLJ/LBG/100912/2030/dep?via=East_Croydon

 

[dmacw]

I am of the opinion that it is debatable whether you required a supplement in the first place.

Thanks for all your responses.

So, really I should have been advised at the ticket office my ticket was valid? Not worth saying anything for £1.35 though.

 

[soil]

Yes it was valid without supplement.

 

[bb21]

And of course a quick check on NRE shows that a £2.80 single CLJ - LBG is entirely valid to travel ECR -LBG

Yes, I concede. It seems that there is a big anomaly here.

This route is so ridiculous (albeit valid currently) I wonder how long this will last. I would not recommend going via East Croydon, especially considering that it is much quicker via Waterloo. That is, unless the OP is after mileage.

 

[soil]

Yes, I concede. It seems that there is a big anomaly here.

This route is so ridiculous (albeit valid currently) I wonder how long this will last. I would not recommend going via East Croydon, especially considering that it is much quicker via Waterloo. That is, unless the OP is after mileage.

CLJ - ECR - LBG is actually a fairly reasonable journey taking under half-an-hour due to the frequency and speed of trains on both routes.

The route via Waterloo and Waterloo East is 20 minutes I guess.

That's assuming your final destination is London Bridge of course.

TFL reckons 30 minutes CLJ - St Pancras via Vauxhall and the Victoria Line, travelling CLJ - ECR is 10 minutes and ECR - STP is 30 minutes, so again it is not as outrageous as all that, and actually might be preferable with luggage.

 

[bb21]

Fair enough. If the OP comes down on Thameslink then I suppose it can be more convenient in fact staying on to East Croydon.