High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[DXMachina]

@TheCaptain's post about the efficiency of jet engines, with respect and a degree of discomfort, I'm calling that as total untruth.

CO2 emissions per passenger mile put air as worse than trains, albeit better than buses or cars

 

[NSEFAN]

Aircraft gas turbine (jet and turboprop) engines are increadilbly efficient, and burn their fuel very cleanly because they operate at very high temperatures compared to car and truck piston engines. Run your finger around the exhaust outlet of a bus and it'll be covered in nasty black stuff. Do the same on a gas turbine exhaust and there'll be no deposit.

The air quality around a major airport will be quite poor - but that almost all generated by the large amount of surface traffic (cars, buses, trucks, and diesel trains) that the airport generates. Very little comes from the aeroplanes (and those long white condesation trails you see in a blue sky are simply water vapour or ice crystals - quite harmless to the environment).

Actually, rail has some of the dirtiest diesels engines around. Some trains make you wonder if steam locos ever left the railway such is the amount of smoke they generate!

In terms of energy efficiency in getting a person / stuff from A to B, a plane will still lose.

Climate change or no climate change, I feel that we should be looking to improve the energy efficiency in our daily lives. Whilst modern planes are a lot better than their predecessors, replacing internal flights with rail would be a responsible action in moving towards making better use of the resources we have.

 

[Zoe]

Climate change or no climate change, I feel that we should be looking to improve the energy efficiency in our daily lives.

The issue here is that not much is getting done to prepare for the possibility of a car free society. Investment needs to be made so if it turns out that the car is no longer available then there is an alternative primary form of transport.

 

[HSTEd]

Additionally a train, and to far more limited extent a car, can use the power from this here nuclear reactor efficiently, without going through the neccesary hydrogen to methanol to fuel synthesis steps.

This is ofcousre not counting the use of nuclear electrolytic hydrogen to hydrogenate coal to convert it to synthetic fuel, which potentially ends up being cheaper than conventional oil without any of the deleterious carbon dioxide releases associated with conventional synthetic fuel production.

 

[brianthegiant]

7 Reasons to more rapidly reduce use of fossil fuels in transport & heating

1) Reduce occurrence of diseases related to air pollution (asthma, some cancers, etc)
2) Cheaper to to prevent climate change now than deal with it later (Stern Report)
3) Hedge against impact of rising cost of fossil fuels on inflation and competitiveness
4) Improve balance of payments by reducing imports
5) Increase energy security by reducing reliance on imports, ie diversifying supplies
6) Reduce financial support for undemocratic oil/gas producing nations
7) Maybe there might then be some oil left for future plastics production and future generations

 

[DjU]

Sarcasm like that doesn't work on a jack of all trades electrical engineer specialising in embedded software...

Personally, I'd design it myself rather than giving it to Thales thanks very much, about 6 months solid development and I'd have the whole system designed and ready...

And everyone knows what they say about jack of all trades...

 

[YorkshireBear]

And everyone knows what they say about jack of all trades...

Went up the hill with jill?

 

[Tiny Tim]

A well-run high speed rail network, regardless of the environmental issues, should offer a more attractive short-haul journey than flying. Airports are not as conveniently positioned as railway stations. (Take a look at so-called Bristol Airport) Even with HS2 having limited stops it should be a more flexible means of getting directly to a destination. In terms of doorstep-to-doorstep journeys high speed rail is probably going to be at least as quick as air travel for most purposes. It's also worth considering the time taken getting through security at airports, it adds considerably to the time needed to make a trip.

Locomotive diesel engines may not have the cleanest emissions, but aren't we heading (slowly) towards full electrification?

 

[HSTEd]

And if you build a Shinkansen style line you get the more stops and still keep the high speed expresses....


I should really stop harping on about that.

As for a jack of all trades software engineer, my father could probably write one if you gave him a million pounds. (He worked with the railways from 1969 to 2001, for most of that time in software and communications).
The train completeness check hasnt really been "solved" yet because noone has focussed any resources on it yet, and after that you simply have to ensure that you have sufficient robustness in all other signalling systems.

A near effective moving block system using 150m long track circuits is probably feasible in the short term, although we have a decade before any track is actually laid and the choice is forced.

 

[Tiny Tim]

A near effective moving block system using 150m long track circuits is probably feasible in the short term, although we have a decade before any track is actually laid and the choice is forced.

That's the sort of system that should be developed for HS2. The question is: Have they got the nuts to make such a decision? I'd like to think so.

 

[Nym]

And everyone knows what they say about jack of all trades...

That they hold a good working knowledge of all aspects concerning their project or thread of conversation so are in effect the only people who can actually make a good judgement regarding a practical method of operation?

Jack of all trades regarding E&EE by the way, dipping into Mechanical, Network Flows, and Logistics...

As well as data processing, vehicle operation and retail.
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That's the sort of system that should be developed for HS2. The question is: Have they got the nuts to make such a decision? I'd like to think so.

And theres better ways to detect a position than using track circuits, that are getting more and more expensive to implement, and the potential floating effects at very high speed push you toward axle counters any way, and beacons are an evolution on this...

 

[Badger]

Haven't seen it posted yet; inside rendition of the Birmingham station:

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2012/01/12/how-birmingham-high-speed-station-may-look/

Glass roofs will provide natural lighting and views of Birmingham’s tallest building, including the Rotunda by the Bullring shopping centre.

 

[dggar]

Looks like a station

I presume the line

"Journey times from the Birmingham Airport station will be 45 minutes compared to an hour and a quarter at present."

refers to the time from Birmingham International to Euston and not New Street.

 

[WatcherZero]

NR/Passenger Focus have jointly just released a report on what they would do with the spare capacity released by HS2 Phase 1, not had a chance to read it yet.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/imagelibrary/downloadMedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=5339

 

[CosherB]

@TheCaptain's post about the efficiency of jet engines, with respect and a degree of discomfort, I'm calling that as total untruth.

CO2 emissions per passenger mile put air as worse than trains, albeit better than buses or cars

I never mentioned CO2. I did cite nasty black deposits. I'm talking cancer-causing carbon particulates which definately kill people right now, no argument. The jury's still out on whether man's CO2 contribution is significant to global warming or not.

 

[HSTEd]

Ive been doing some thinking very far ahead and looking for Newcastle stations, it doesn't look too promising, it appears it would have to be several mile long tunnelled approaches with a box station underground, perhaps with it partially skylighting like the Canary Wharf station.

 

[Nym]

Newcastle would be an absolute pain yes...

Like I said before Leeds is easy approach, hard station
Manchester is hard approach, easy station
Newcastle is hard both...

 

[JohnCarlson]

Ive been doing some thinking very far ahead and looking for Newcastle stations, it doesn't look too promising, it appears it would have to be several mile long tunnelled approaches with a box station underground, perhaps with it partially skylighting like the Canary Wharf station.

I would love to think that kind of money would come Newcastle's way. However I suspect phased upgrades would be made to the line north of York rather than building a full on extension to HS2. A high speed line north of Newcastle would be relatively simple as would an second higher speed line from just south of Northallerton to North of Durham. The Chester le Street viaduct would probably have to be four tracked to increase capacity which would cost a lot.

John

 

[HSTEd]

I would love to think that kind of money would come Newcastle's way. However I suspect phased upgrades would be made to the line north of York rather than building a full on extension to HS2. A high speed line north of Newcastle would be relatively simple as would an second higher speed line from just south of Northallerton to North of Durham. The Chester le Street viaduct would probably have to be four tracked to increase capacity which would cost a lot.

John

Unfortunately this prevents the use of full loading gauge trains on the route, whereas if a High Speed line to Glasgow via Edinburgh was available we get huge amoutns more capacity (1300 seat trains and all that).

 

[sprinterguy]

Ive been doing some thinking very far ahead and looking for Newcastle stations, it doesn't look too promising, it appears it would have to be several mile long tunnelled approaches with a box station underground, perhaps with it partially skylighting like the Canary Wharf station.

I don't think there'll ever be a station specific to HS2 in Newcastle. With attention on the possibility of a high speed route to Scotland being focused on the West Coast route, I think it's unlikely that there'll ever be a dedicated HS2 line further north than Newcastle on the east side and hence no need for a dedicated station at that location.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think there'll ever be a station specific to HS2 in Newcastle. With attention on the possibility of a high speed route to Scotland being focused on the West Coast route, I think it's unlikely that there'll ever be a dedicated HS2 line further north than Newcastle on the east side and hence no need for a dedicated station at that location.

North of Manchester there is no signficant population centre on the west coast, whereas there are on the east coast, additionally the east coast route is not protected as a national treasure (The Lakes).

The loss of time from routing London trains to Glasgow via Leeds and Edinburgh is minimal considering the service speeds we are talking about.

 

[WatcherZero]

Wont come down to people on the cross border links though, it will come down to freight, which route releases the most extra capacity for freight paths.

 

[Nym]

And we're always going to have the Classic Compatible stock to run round the place. Is going to have a lifespan of about 40 years, and there isn't really anywhere to displace it to. From a Day 1 working timetable only continuing through Rugley at Stage 1, I work it out at about...

8 units per hourly 400m service (2hr per diagram, 2 units, 2 directions)

With the 400m services being formed of:
3tph Manchester
1tph Liverpool & Chester / Holyhead (Hauled from Crewe)
1tph Liverpool & Preston / Blackpool
1tph Liverpool & Glasgow (Glasgow addition requiring 4 more units)

So in total I get that we'll be needing (without any HS services from Manchester to Birmingham at Stage 1) 52 200m long Classic Compatable sets available for use, so thats a fleet of about 60 odd.

With the initial captive network needing 22 - 26 units for Birmingham - Euston (At 400m long) with these units being formed of 2x200m Captive units.

When Manchester - Euston and Leeds - Euston gets included, working on 2hr including turnarounds thats an additional (assuming again, maximum units on routes) that is 24 for Manchester and 16 for Leeds, plus maintenance spares so lets say an additional 50 captive units, brining the captive fleet up to about 80 units, plus any international, Birmingham - Leeds / Manchester and Heathrow units brings the fleet up to about 100 as a rough guess.

Classic Compatable wise, we'd have 24 units kicking about spare from Stage 2, these again, would be able to work 3tph doubled up on 2hr routes, however, if we make it 2tph, all splitting at Doncaster, York or East Midlands Parkway, where one unit will continue to an 'off route' destination, such as Lincoln, Hull, Harrogate, Scarbrough etc.

If we send the front of 1tph to Edinbrugh and the other to terminate at Newcastle and call at some intermediates, with others only calling York.

Working off single unit diagrams for modelling purposes, although units will run double to Doncaster or York, York being via Leeds or Doncaster, whatever is quicker.

1tph to Edinburgh can be modelled as an 8hr end to end including turnarounds, end to end, so thats 8 units, Newcastle is lets say 6 hours, so 6 units.

Hull / Lincoln would run at a 5hr route and Harrogate / Scarborough would be about the same, so avaraging it out, you get 10 units used up by the 'splitting bits' of services to off route destinations.

Damn, that appears to conveniently have all the Classic Compatible stock from the now Captive Manchester route used up... How convenient...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The loss of time from routing London trains to Glasgow via Leeds and Edinburgh is minimal considering the service speeds we are talking about.

So the Moors and Dales of North Yorkshire isn't a national park any more?

Yeah, you moaning NIMBY's of the Chilterns, National Park, not just an AONB...

 

[tbtc]

So the Moors and Dales of North Yorkshire isn't a national park any more?

Yeah, you moaning NIMBY's of the Chilterns, National Park, not just an AONB...

The ECML passing through Thirsk etc isn't in the same league as the WCML passing through Tebay, if we are talking about putting a new high speed line up one side of the country

 

[Nym]

The thing is though, going up the west does good journey times to Glasgow and Edinburgh, going up the East only covers the latter.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think there'll ever be a station specific to HS2 in Newcastle. With attention on the possibility of a high speed route to Scotland being focused on the West Coast route, I think it's unlikely that there'll ever be a dedicated HS2 line further north than Newcastle on the east side and hence no need for a dedicated station at that location.

Agreed.

All you need for Newcastle is a new stretch of line avoiding Durham (as Virgin proposed a decade ago), the rest of the line is fast enough

 

[Nym]

And also agreed, if the Classic Compatiable stock is going to be ordered anyway, we may as well make good use of it, and stretches of bypasses or faster sections of route (built to new gauge of course) will be a heck of a lot more cost effective, and allowed continued use of Classic Compatable stock, then come 2070 when that's life expired, we can have completed the UIC GC routes up the entire East Coast...

 

[HSTEd]

So the Moors and Dales of North Yorkshire isn't a national park any more?

Yeah, you moaning NIMBY's of the Chilterns, National Park, not just an AONB...

Why are you so far west?
If your are going to go north from leeds you track over via York and then head north from there, its fairly flat and it misses the Moors......


Why would you go for easier terrain to plow through that?

And as far as "freeing up space for freight" both routes are equally good, since the displacement of London-Scotland traffic would be near total whichever way the line goes, especially if you want to see your amazing CC stock from Manchester to Scotland via Leeds and the North TPE.

A straight line Leeds to Newcastle comes to roughly 130km, diverting by York extends it to 150km.... or roughly 4 additional minutes at 320kph.


EDIT:
At 320kph a train would cover Glasgow-Edinburgh in 12 minutes.
Even going via Leeds, York and Edinburgh (stopping at Leeds and Edinburgh) a train to Glasgow is still within ~3hr15, and this way you forever end all discussion of capacity issues between Edinburgh and Glasgow and connect a city of 1.65 million (Newcastle) directly to the network for roughly 380km of additional track, connecting Glasgow directly from Manchester requires 300km itself.

 

[tbtc]

Why are you so far west?
If your are going to go north from leeds you track over via York and then head north from there, its fairly flat and it misses the Moors......

A straight line Leeds to Newcastle comes to roughly 130km, diverting by York extends it to 150km.... or roughly 4 additional minutes at 320kph.

EDIT: Uh what?
At 320kph a train would cover Glasgow-Edinburgh in 12 minutes.

Go straight north from Leeds. If it's not worth the tiny diversion to serve Heathrow (apparently), and not worth going into central Sheffield (etc) then it's really not worth going out of the way to serve York...

 

[Nym]

Accelaration and braking profiles extend that journey out to about 25mins... As well as the fact it won't be 320clicks at the route between the two thanks to being windey and/or in tunnels, I'd expect 250clicks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Go straight north from Leeds. If it's not worth the tiny diversion to serve Heathrow (apparently), and not worth going into central Sheffield (etc) then it's really not worth going out of the way to serve York...

Said it before, will say it again, Central Sheffeild is a piece of ****!

Nunnery Square Station, through Sheffeild Victoria, that can be re-built with the HS2 tracks alongside or down the centre, interchange at Nunnery Sq. initally can be shuttles to Stocksbridge and Huddersfeild via Penistone (HS2 services could actually run that way for Huddersfield 1tp2h CC, split at Sheffield), and if Woodhead is re-opened, send that through the new pair of stations, out towards Stocksbridge, turn right to head East of Wakefeild and then into Leeds past the Royal Mail Depot and Freightliner depots, wind that out to 4 track.