High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[YorkshireBear]

I thought some of the HS2 platforms were going to be able to be used by WCML too.

 

[GingerSte]

I thought some of the HS2 platforms were going to be able to be used by WCML too.

There are also the "Hybrid Platforms 1 and 2" as shown on drawing hs2arp00drrw05300 issue2. They are currently shown connected to HS2 only at the moment, but that could change in detailed design.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Please do enlighten us as to what replacement you're cooking up. What improvements will it make over the adhesion railway for the vital business of transporting 92% of the land freight across the Nullabor Plain? How will it enable us to reduce the amount of fossil fuel needed to get a 1.8km train of double-stacked containers across a continent?

MagLev has some possibilities for short shuttles like the Shanghai Airport, but not for the core business of the railway which is transporting great masses of freight and people across great distances.

It's clearly unrealistic to assume that every railway in the world would suddenly convert to new technology, there are already plenty of non-compatible systems working perfectly well around the world. 4'8".5 isn't the only gauge. Monorail/maglev have their place alongside these systems, not necessarily as a replacement. Improved transport systems shouldn't be dismissed simply because they're different, there's plenty of variety already. There isn't a world transport authority forcing everybody to use the same gauge or system, now that would be silly.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks.

Will this not limit the capacity of the WCML to serve towns not currently served (eg Telford etc). I thought that this was one of the selling points of HS2: that it would release capacity on the WCML for direct services to places not currently served.

I believe the intention is to increase frequency at the stations already served by some WCML Intercity services (and those served by the LM services), increase regional journey opportunities from a number of stations along the WCML to other WCML stations and to provide more capacity for these sorts of journeys.

Rather than adding a whole series of trains serving new destinations to the WCML, extending the remaining WCML services to other destinations is being considered. For example, Aberystwyth and Wrexham, via Shrewsbury and Telford, have been suggested as possible extensions of the intended half hourly Birmingham WCML service.

 

[GingerSte]

I believe the intention is to increase frequency at the stations already served by some WCML Intercity services (and those served by the LM services), increase regional journey opportunities from a number of stations along the WCML to other WCML stations and to provide more capacity for these sorts of journeys.

Rather than adding a whole series of trains serving new destinations to the WCML, extending the remaining WCML services to other destinations is being considered. For example, Aberystwyth and Wrexham, via Shrewsbury and Telford, have been suggested as possible extensions of the intended half hourly Birmingham WCML service.

That would make sense, assuming that the number of units needed isn't too many more than we've currently got.

Actually, that would either need electrification west of Wolverhampton, Locomotive power being provided for that section, or running diesel units (Voyagers?) over the whole trip. I doubt this is included for in the original price of HS2.

 

[Geezertronic]

It's clearly unrealistic to assume that every railway in the world would suddenly convert to new technology, there are already plenty of non-compatible systems working perfectly well around the world. 4'8".5 isn't the only gauge. Monorail/maglev have their place alongside these systems, not necessarily as a replacement. Improved transport systems shouldn't be dismissed simply because they're different, there's plenty of variety already. There isn't a world transport authority forcing everybody to use the same gauge or system, now that would be silly.

So in respect to HS2, why would a different gauge/system be warranted given the requirement for classic compatible stock to use it and also to be able to provide cities north of London with the potential to link to Europe via HS1?

 

[DXMachina]

There's no sense asking unanswerable questions to someone who isn't working on the same rules of formal logic as the rest of us.

 

[sprinterguy]

That would make sense, assuming that the number of units needed isn't too many more than we've currently got.

Actually, that would either need electrification west of Wolverhampton, Locomotive power being provided for that section, or running diesel units (Voyagers?) over the whole trip. I doubt this is included for in the original price of HS2.

Greengauge 21 suggest using 221s "or other suitable 200 km/h trains", as the lower capacity of the 221s won't represent such a problem for West Coast services. I'm not sure of their logic there if the idea of HS2 is to increase the capacity available on the WCML by allowing additional journeys between WCML stations through the introduction of extra stops on the remaining long distance services, especially given that the frequency of long distance services will be reduced.

 

[amcluesent]

Finally, some sensible comment on Delor's other bampot EU plan behind HS2!

The continent is the final destination for HS2

There is a tantalising mystery at the heart of the immense row over the Government’s proposed new HS2 railway line. Every conceivable argument – commercial, economic and environmental – seems to be against what has been called “the worst waste of public money for generations”. The scheme makes no practical sense at all. And yet our Government seems determined to railroad it through regardless.

Why does the driving force behind this insane project have to be a state secret?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Finally, some sensible comment on Delor's other bampot EU plan behind HS2!

The continent is the final destination for HS2

There is a tantalising mystery at the heart of the immense row over the Government’s proposed new HS2 railway line. Every conceivable argument – commercial, economic and environmental – seems to be against what has been called “the worst waste of public money for generations”. The scheme makes no practical sense at all. And yet our Government seems determined to railroad it through regardless.

Why does the driving force behind this insane project have to be a state secret?

Oh i trust everything the telegraph says about HS2 ive seen no fewver than 10 articles in last year where they have misrepresented facts ie lied.... they have never had a pro HS2 article, so they are clearly biassed.... hardly good reporting.

 

[Chris125]

To me it looks looks rather angular and 'industrial' also the current Curzon Street station building is rather lost. Obviously it's got to be functional but there's no reason it can't be made attractive too. I hope they could do something more along the lines of Waterloo International rather than St P domestic.

Its an artist's impression of what could be built to help people visualise whats being proposed, including the development of the surrounding area - nothing more.

With the line only confirmed as going ahead last week, there's a long way to go yet before we know what the finished stations will look like, let alone what other buildings on the site get proposed and win planning permission.

Chris

 

[jon0844]

Ditto The Guardian, which is now stating that a Government report confirms HS2 is a waste of money and the WCML could be fixed by merely extending trains to 12-cars and getting rid of first class.

So there you have it, all the future capacity needs addressed by little more than doing that!

Of course it would be cheaper, so if the purpose of the report was to come up with alternatives (and costs) and you only had the desire to save as much money as possible, then you'd wholeheartedly agree with it. Thank God some people are looking a bit further head than a few years, or perhaps thinking the next way to solve the capacity issue would be to increase prices to get people to stop using the railway altogether!

 

[Nym]

The main way to reduce demand on the railways is either pricing people off it, or alternatively, population control in the South East where it's infrastructure limited, rather than oop norf, where it's rolling stock.. (Generally)

 

[dggar]

Ditto The Guardian, which is now stating that a Government report confirms HS2 is a waste of money and the WCML could be fixed by merely extending trains to 12-cars and getting rid of first class..........

Out of interest does the Guardian give a reference for this "Government" report. It would be interesting to se it

 

[tbtc]

Finally, some sensible comment on Delor's other bampot EU plan behind HS2!

There is a tantalising mystery at the heart of the immense row over the Government’s proposed new HS2 railway line

a state secret?

The hidden story

But why can’t they just tell us this? Why does the driving force behind this insane project have to be a state secret?

routinely deceitful about almost everything they do

Damn, the Telegraph have rumbled this secret plan - I'd hoped that naming the new line High Speed Two (HS2) would disguise the fact that it had anything to do with the route to the channel tunnel (High Speed One - HS1)... I can't think what clue could have given away the fact that the two were vaguely linked?

Credit to Fox Mulder at the Telegraph for seeing through this carefully planned smokescreen with their revelations that, erm, the HS2 trains would be capable of running onto the HS1 line.

No doubt, since one can fly from Birmingham to Paris in under an hour, such trains will prove as financially disastrous as their Dutch equivalent

You can fly from London to Paris faster, yet rail has taken an increasing share of that market. Or is the Telegraph saying that we should abandon the idea of trains competing with short/middle distance flights?

 

[Tiny Tim]

So in respect to HS2, why would a different gauge/system be warranted given the requirement for classic compatible stock to use it and also to be able to provide cities north of London with the potential to link to Europe via HS1?

Who would expect a monorail/maglev system to be compatible? Not even politicians.

 

[Chris125]

Out of interest does the Guardian give a reference for this "Government" report. It would be interesting to se it

Presumably NR's review of strategic alternatives (now on the DfT's website) - which is odd, because they and everyone else was reporting a week ago that it dismissed the case for another WCML upgrade and made HS2's approval as good as guaranteed.

Chris

 

[Geezertronic]

Who would expect a monorail/maglev system to be compatible? Not even politicians.

So please tell us why in your opinion HS2 should be considered for a completely different system?

 

[DownSouth]

But the HS2 trains won't just run to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. They'll provide faster journey times to other destinations, such as Liverpool and Glasgow, as well. And HS2 will also, hopefully, provide additional capacity between intermediate stations on the WCML. If HS2 gets to Leeds it should make a pretty big difference to the Crosscountry network as well, although not as big a difference as it would have made ten years ago, now that Leeds is 2 hours and Newcastle is 3 hours from Birmingham.

Even more importantly, it adds capacity for freight on the WCML and night freight on HS2 for intermodal services to/from Europe. When only about 7% of surface freight transport in Britain goes by rail, increasing the amount carried by rail should be a national priority.

 

[MK Tom]

I think one of the major problems we have with combining all HS2 discussion into a single thread is the fact we're discussing things that will happen, things some of us want to happen and things that definitely are never going to happen all at once.

Has there been any further word on the state of WCML intercity services after HS2's completion? I have been pretty much won round to supporting it now but I'm still concerned about journey times from MK to more long-distance destinations like Liverpool, Scotland and Manchester.

 

[Tiny Tim]

So please tell us why in your opinion HS2 should be considered for a completely different system?

Every journey starts with a single step.

Every network has to start (and end) somewhere.

The journey that started with two steel rails will not go on forever.

 

[dggar]

I think one of the major problems we have with combining all HS2 discussion into a single thread is the fact we're discussing things that will happen, things some of us want to happen and things that definitely are never going to happen all at once.

.

Could we give some contribtors their own thread please

 

[MK Tom]

Could we give some contribtors their own thread please

Yeah I'd support that, have a separate thread for speculation and different ideas and keep this thread specifically about this one project and what's really happening.

 

[jon0844]

There must have been loads of reports commissioned to look at every option, and some reports must have looked at ways to simply save money - as in 'what could we do instead of spending such a huge amount?'. The details in that report would clearly show you could save money (doing absolutely nothing would save even more money) but that doesn't mean - as the paper and anti-HS2 people think - that the report proves HS2 is pointless.

Let me write a quick report that says doing nothing will save all £32/33bn and send it to the Telegraph or Guardian.. They may then put it front page! I could even go further by suggesting we shut down the WCML too, as most people these days don't need to travel. We can work from home if we so desire and we can get goods delivered. In fact, we can usual social networking to save ever going out to meet people.

Think of all the money saved! Even I am starting to think that not only is HS2 a waste of time, but roads and rail too...!

 

[Geezertronic]

Every journey starts with a single step.

Every network has to start (and end) somewhere.

The journey that started with two steel rails will not go on forever.

In respect to HS2, that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[tbtc]

Every journey starts with a single step.

Every network has to start (and end) somewhere.

The journey that started with two steel rails will not go on forever.

It sounds very pretty and mystic, but the reality is that it makes sense to have HS2 designed to be compatible with current railways and compatible with HS1.

Building a stand alone type of infrastructure (incapable of having the same trains use both HS2 and "classic" lines) would make things even more costly.

You might as well ask why we don't insist people drive on the right on any new roads/motorways.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Newspapers are mostly interested in selling newspapers. The coverage of HS2 has followed a predictable pattern; Broadly supportive (Telegraph excepted) during the early stages, then reverting to the usual default setting of knocking copy. That's not to say that anti HS2 campaigners shouldn't have a voice, some criticism isn't just valid but constructive. Changing our newspapers' editorial policy is quite a tall order. As far as I can remember, every major civil engineering project has suffered from press bias. It's probably just a cross we have to bear.

 

[jon0844]

The anti-HS2 people can have a voice, but need to concentrate on genuine reasons for why HS2 may not be a good idea, or their concerns for the route, what trains will run, how long it will take. Nobody is probably of the opinion that everything planned is exactly right.

What annoys me is that you have people in towns along the route who come up with nonsense just because they simply don't want it there. They claim it's not needed, but then say you should upgrade the WCML to meet demand (so, thus, they are actually admitting we need new infrastructure). I bet if the route was totally changed, they'd change their mind and a new group would appear elsewhere.

Let's all be HONEST about why we want (or don't) want HS2, rather than being so desperate to find other reasons to get it shelved. What next, claims that the noise from HS2 will cause cancer? That children trespassing on the line will stand no chance with trains going so fast..? If they thought these things would work, they'd try them!

I think the pro-HS2 people are probably more critical of some of the finer details than the others. Given it's almost certainly going to happen, perhaps they should now contribute to ensuring it's a success.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's clearly unrealistic to assume that every railway in the world would suddenly convert to new technology, there are already plenty of non-compatible systems working perfectly well around the world. 4'8".5 isn't the only gauge. Monorail/maglev have their place alongside these systems, not necessarily as a replacement. Improved transport systems shouldn't be dismissed simply because they're different, there's plenty of variety already. There isn't a world transport authority forcing everybody to use the same gauge or system, now that would be silly.

EU TSI 2008/17/EC mandates 1435mm nominal gauge for all new/upgraded cat I/II/III lines over 200kph in the EU. End of story.

Alternatives are as laughable as British triumphs like HOTOL in aerospace or the AGR nuclear reactors (or even APT).
The Chinese have pots of money (much of it ours) to experiment; we do not.
We couldn't even keep the Birmingham monorail going.
Even if it worked on an A-B basis Euston-Birmingham, it would not integrate with classic lines or as a network, or into Europe.

 

[Greenback]

The anti-HS2 people can have a voice, but need to concentrate on genuine reasons for why HS2 may not be a good idea, or their concerns for the route, what trains will run, how long it will take. Nobody is probably of the opinion that everything planned is exactly right.

What annoys me is that you have people in towns along the route who come up with nonsense just because they simply don't want it there. They claim it's not needed, but then say you should upgrade the WCML to meet demand (so, thus, they are actually admitting we need new infrastructure). I bet if the route was totally changed, they'd change their mind and a new group would appear elsewhere.

Let's all be HONEST about why we want (or don't) want HS2, rather than being so desperate to find other reasons to get it shelved. What next, claims that the noise from HS2 will cause cancer? That children trespassing on the line will stand no chance with trains going so fast..? If they thought these things would work, they'd try them!

I think the pro-HS2 people are probably more critical of some of the finer details than the others. Given it's almost certainly going to happen, perhaps they should now contribute to ensuring it's a success.

It would also help if anyone who is against HS2 could come up with alternatives. I am not mad keen on it myself, but I accept that we need mor ecapacity and it is preferable to build a new, modern line rather than try and continually upgrade traditional lines.

Spouting some of the rubbish that has been quote din the media has done their argument no favours at all.