High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[tbtc]

A revised map for HS2 is here - http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2012/01/10/government-solves-high-speed-rail-controversy/

Looks like a shorter route, should save a few quid...

 

[Bedpan]

While we're on the topic of HS2s' Birmingham terminus, a new artists' impression of the proposed Curzon Street station and its' approaches has been published:
http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...link-could-look-in-birmingham-97319-30102253/

It's satisfied my curiosity as to how HS2 is going to get over the Cross-City line, which is on quite a high flyover to begin with at Proof House Junction. I'd had difficulty picturing it precisely from the diagrammatic maps.

What is going to happen to the existing Curzon Street station building, bearing in mind that its Grade 1 listed? There's no sign of it in the artist's impression, and in any case its positioned slap bang in the middle of where the new station will be. (Apologies if this has been discussed before, I haven't read the entire thread).

 

[sprinterguy]

What is going to happen to the existing Curzon Street station building, bearing in mind that its Grade 1 listed? There's no sign of it in the artist's impression, and in any case its positioned slap bang in the middle of where the new station will be. (Apologies if this has been discussed before, I haven't read the entire thread).

It is visible in the artists' impression, just: Look to the left near the far end of the overall roof of the station. It's hidden away and dwarfed by the surrounding apartment and office blocks. Curzon Street HS2 station will not take up the full width of the former goods terminal, there is still going to be a strip of land to the south of Curzon Street itself available for other development.

Basically, it seems like it's going to be forgotten, which is a shame.

 

[swt_passenger]

What is going to happen to the existing Curzon Street station building, bearing in mind that its Grade 1 listed? There's no sign of it in the artist's impression, and in any case its positioned slap bang in the middle of where the new station will be. (Apologies if this has been discussed before, I haven't read the entire thread).

The Curzon St building is not impacted by the plans - if you look back to the drawings shown in post #549 on page 37 of this thread it is somewhat north of the new station site. Below the 'New Canal St' caption?

The position of the station hasn't ever changed, it is as per the original 'Adonis' plans; the mystery to me remains why they persistently refer to it as being at Curzon St - which just provided ammunition for the critics...

 

[TSR :D]

Maybe a daft idea, but if the borsersley junction was built, then there could be a short train going from Five Ways - New Street - St Andrews - Bordersley - Moor Street - Snow Hill - Jewellery Quarter, creating a sort of tube-style city route joining everything together. Could that work?

This would provide a link from New Street to Curzon Street (Moor Street entrance).

I think this was discussed at here. Although, a route of yours, I think it will be unpopular as there is already bus route that follows similar route and is already unpopular (Compared to other bus routes).

 

[Badger]

Never underestimate people's laziness - a bus has to be walked to! Thanks for the link.

 

[IanXC]

A lot of people also don't realise that there's only a pretty small fraction of that total cost earmarked for use in HS2 development during the term of the current Government, up to 2015. I can't remember what the figure was, but I'm sure it was only in the millions.

I'm sure I heard Justine Greening say £750m.

 

[Andyjs247]

While we're on the topic of HS2s' Birmingham terminus, a new artists' impression of the proposed Curzon Street station and its' approaches has been published:
http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...link-could-look-in-birmingham-97319-30102253/

It's satisfied my curiosity as to how HS2 is going to get over the Cross-City line, which is on quite a high flyover to begin with at Proof House Junction. I'd had difficulty picturing it precisely from the diagrammatic maps.

The approach to the station is straighter than I had imagined - I had envisaged that it would follow the lines towards Adderley Park more closely. What sort of speeds are they planning to do on the final approach? Also, design-wise can't they come up with something better - what does everyone think?

Maybe a daft idea, but if the borsersley junction was built, then there could be a short train going from Five Ways - New Street - St Andrews - Bordersley - Moor Street - Snow Hill - Jewellery Quarter, creating a sort of tube-style city route joining everything together. Could that work?

This would provide a link from New Street to Curzon Street (Moor Street entrance).

It would be much quicker to walk from New Street to Curzon Street/Moor Street! I see they are planning to create a pedestrian walkway partly underneath the Bullring, linking New Street Station, Moor Street Station and the new Curzon Street Station.

Although I believe it's only around 250-300m from New Street to Moor Street (i.e. less than a full HS2 train length) not everyone wants to (or indeed is able to walk) that distance (my mother for instance). Better still, put some through platforms adjacent to Curzon Street HS2 in the Proof House Junction area. I'm thinking some through platforms could go here, where the lines will be more or less at the same level. At the Moor Street end there's not much space; also the tracks are at a lower level before they dive into the tunnel towards New Street. Would it be possible to get enough platforms in to replace New Street in to the bargain though?

 

[Nym]

How do you mean design wise? As in making it look pretty like a designer? Whats wrong with just being 'A STATION' why pay more for something pretty rather than something functional...

Approach speeds are about 100 - 186mph..

 

[swt_passenger]

How do you mean design wise? As in making it look pretty like a designer? Whats wrong with just being 'A STATION' why pay more for something pretty rather than something functional...

The only thing about the building that I think grates a bit is that the west end remains square to the line of the approach - I think I'd be tending to match it more to the alignment of the street, IYSWIM. That odd bit that juts out over the street specifically...

Of course it may turn out that that sort of detail might be down to local planners to deal with eventually, if the likes of Thameslink and Crossrail are much to go by, the detailed finishes etc usually seem to be delegated to local decision makers...

 

[jon0844]

Since HS2 is also supposed to be able to link locations north of location with Europe, what would be the point of making HS2 a completely different system compared to HS1 and Europe? That would definitely be the white elephant that the anti brigade always go on about. At least if it is built to the same gauge as HS1, then trains can go from (example) Birmingham to European destinations if there is a market for it.

Also, HS2 is supposed to ease congestion on the WCML so what would be the point of changing the system as trains from London to Glasgow wouldn't be able to make use of HS2 from Day One if that was the case

I can only presume the anti HS2 people are happy to promote maglev or monorails and pretend to be serious, knowing that if it was considered it would almost certainly be ditched - and they win.

Looking at the latest anti-HS2 story on The Guardian, there are many more comments like this (in fact, many suggesting maglev, so I guess there's a maglev pressure group out there?) and the usual suggestions that extending trains to 12 cars and ditching first class would solve all the problems for virtually nothing.

It also claims that both the WCML and ECML have plenty of capacity still! So there you have it - we don't even need to upgrade the WCML, just throw on longer trains and make them all standard class. Forget the first class passengers subsidising those cheap advance tickets, or the cost of extending stations and quite likely having to modify the tracks, signalling and overhead wires - along with the buildings that may be knocked down. As long as it isn't countryside!

 

[Tiny Tim]

I am, personally. a new technologist, I live for the best our industry can provide. So, I cannot believe the future entirely rests between two steel rails.

 

[JohnCarlson]

I'm old enough to remember these three predictions (All from well-informed sources.)

1. A computer will never be able to play chess.

2. Man will never walk on the moon.

3. There will never be a need for home computers.

Care to add to these?

And we can all come up with lists of things that have been bold new and exciting that have failed often because they are the solution for which there is no problem...


Its a big competitive world out there. The fact that high speed standard gauge railways are spreading all over it and alternative systems are not should tell us something.

 

[Andyjs247]

How do you mean design wise? As in making it look pretty like a designer? Whats wrong with just being 'A STATION' why pay more for something pretty rather than something functional...

Approach speeds are about 100 - 186mph..

To me it looks looks rather angular and 'industrial' also the current Curzon Street station building is rather lost. Obviously it's got to be functional but there's no reason it can't be made attractive too. I hope they could do something more along the lines of Waterloo International rather than St P domestic.

 

[Trog]

I am, personally. a new technologist, I live for the best our industry can provide. So, I cannot believe the future entirely rests between two steel rails.

Think bigger.

The installed base of 4' 8 1/2" track is so huge and still growing that it will not get replaced for something similar but better. It would need a real step change like matter transportation, to make a change of method worthwhile.

 

[DownSouth]

I am, personally. a new technologist, I live for the best our industry can provide. So, I cannot believe the future entirely rests between two steel rails.

Please do enlighten us as to what replacement you're cooking up. What improvements will it make over the adhesion railway for the vital business of transporting 92% of the land freight across the Nullabor Plain? How will it enable us to reduce the amount of fossil fuel needed to get a 1.8km train of double-stacked containers across a continent?

MagLev has some possibilities for short shuttles like the Shanghai Airport, but not for the core business of the railway which is transporting great masses of freight and people across great distances.

 

[giblets]

The Japanese are ready to start builng the Chuo Shinkansen (Tokyo-Osaka down frm 2hr30 to 30mins!) in 2014 using Maglev trains! Ironically set to open in 2026!
Just when we thought we were catching up!

 

[Nym]

Japan runs a much more hub & spokey network than the UK though, services never tend to run 'through' in the most part they run to or from Tokyo.

 

[RobShipway]

The approach to the station is straighter than I had imagined - I had envisaged that it would follow the lines towards Adderley Park more closely. What sort of speeds are they planning to do on the final approach? Also, design-wise can't they come up with something better - what does everyone think?



It would be much quicker to walk from New Street to Curzon Street/Moor Street! I see they are planning to create a pedestrian walkway partly underneath the Bullring, linking New Street Station, Moor Street Station and the new Curzon Street Station.

Although I believe it's only around 250-300m from New Street to Moor Street (i.e. less than a full HS2 train length) not everyone wants to (or indeed is able to walk) that distance (my mother for instance). Better still, put some through platforms adjacent to Curzon Street HS2 in the Proof House Junction area. I'm thinking some through platforms could go here, where the lines will be more or less at the same level. At the Moor Street end there's not much space; also the tracks are at a lower level before they dive into the tunnel towards New Street. Would it be possible to get enough platforms in to replace New Street in to the bargain though?

The extension to the Midland Metro that I belive is currently underway with completion in 2015 will enable people to travel from outside New Street station to Curzon Street for those that cannot walk, so far.

Is there details plans as to the route from London Euston HS2 will be taking now as I believe that the route will be following the old track bed via Aylesbury of the old London Paddington to Birmingham route, accept for the part where it passes through the living room of the Prime Ministers father in law that is I presume?

 

[Nym]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/topics/high-speed-rail/

Knock yourself out, about 60 A1 size PDFs of the route...

 

[sprinterguy]

The extension to the Midland Metro that I belive is currently underway with completion in 2015 will enable people to travel from outside New Street station to Curzon Street for those that cannot walk, so far.

No it won't, it's connecting New Street to Snow Hill via Corporation Street. It's on completely the wrong side of New Street station for Curzon Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure I heard Justine Greening say £750m.

Yeah that rings a bell. Cheers.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Personally I don't see the point in HS2, as Birmingham is already just over an hour away with Virgin (which is excellent) and even Manchester and Leeds are just over two hours away (which again is still excellent).

I feel that are towns which would benefit from it more to be honest.

 

[sprinterguy]

Personally I don't see the point in HS2, as Birmingham is already just over an hour away with Virgin (which is excellent) and even Manchester and Leeds are just over two hours away (which again is still excellent).

But the HS2 trains won't just run to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. They'll provide faster journey times to other destinations, such as Liverpool and Glasgow, as well. And HS2 will also, hopefully, provide additional capacity between intermediate stations on the WCML. If HS2 gets to Leeds it should make a pretty big difference to the Crosscountry network as well, although not as big a difference as it would have made ten years ago, now that Leeds is 2 hours and Newcastle is 3 hours from Birmingham.

 

[ValleyLines142]

But the HS2 trains won't just run to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. They'll provide faster journey times to other destinations, such as Liverpool and Glasgow, as well. And HS2 will also, hopefully, provide additional capacity between intermediate stations on the WCML. If HS2 gets to Leeds it should make a pretty big difference to the Crosscountry network as well, although not as big a difference as it would have made ten years ago, now that Leeds is 2 hours and Newcastle is 3 hours from Birmingham.

If it goes to Glasgow then that would be brilliant. I didn't know it was going further northwards.

 

[sprinterguy]

If it goes to Glasgow then that would be brilliant. I didn't know it was going further northwards.

It isn't, but London to Glasgow trains, and London to Liverpool trains, will use HS2 Stage 1 as far as Lichfield. I think it is also the intention for Glasgow trains to be able to use the Manchester leg of HS2 Stage 2 thanks to a spur connecting back onto the WCML in the vicinity of Wigan.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If it goes to Glasgow then that would be brilliant. I didn't know it was going further northwards.

Its not yet, but going on HS2 to manchester then classic lines to glasgow (on the same train) will save a good 45 minutes off glasgow london time (might be more not entirely sure)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Personally I don't see the point in HS2, as Birmingham is already just over an hour away with Virgin (which is excellent) and even Manchester and Leeds are just over two hours away (which again is still excellent).

I feel that are towns which would benefit from it more to be honest.

However, something has to be done to aid the capacity constraints on the southern WCML - it can't cope with anymore growth.

 

[GingerSte]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned in one of the 684 comments, but...

Looking at the plans for Euston Station, there only seems to be 12 platforms for existing WCML services in the proposed scheme. I believe that there is at least 18 platforms currently at Euston, servicing fast and slow trains (although obviously not LU).

I don't use Euston particularly often so I don't know how busy it is, but will Euston be able to cope with just 12 platforms? Or will service provision on the existing WCML have to be reduced?

 

[sprinterguy]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned in one of the 684 comments, but...

Looking at the plans for Euston Station, there only seems to be 12 platforms for existing WCML services in the proposed scheme. I believe that there is at least 18 platforms currently at Euston, servicing fast and slow trains (although obviously not LU).

I don't use Euston particularly often so I don't know how busy it is, but will Euston be able to cope with just 12 platforms? Or will service provision on the existing WCML have to be reduced?

As far as I can see, there will be six "Intercity" services departing Euston each hour post-HS2, compared to nine at the moment.

 

[GingerSte]

As far as I can see, there will be six "Intercity" services departing Euston each hour post-HS2, compared to nine at the moment.

Thanks.

Will this not limit the capacity of the WCML to serve towns not currently served (eg Telford etc). I thought that this was one of the selling points of HS2: that it would release capacity on the WCML for direct services to places not currently served.