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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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HSTEd

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Being a signatory to Schengen would be purely symbolic for the UK. It would do nothing at all to reduce or eliminate security checks, as anyone who has traveled between Schengen countries, or indeed flown to a destination within the British Isles, will confirm. Passport checks rarely take more than a few minutes or even seconds. Security often takes in excess of thirty minutes, especially at major airports.

And what exactly do all those security checks actually achieve on a train?
Terrorists aren't going to take over and ram the train into a building.

'Take this train to its scheduled destination!'

Additionally a bomb on the train is uneccesary when they can use a car bomb rammed through the fence onto HS1.

would still take at least four hours from Manchester to Paris. And the cost would be four or five times the equivalent cost of flights, which will still be widely available.

Exponential growth? Niche market I think.

Considering the journey time between London and Manchester will be approximately one hour and the current journey time between London and Paris is 2hr15....

I am not sure why it would take 4 hours.
3hr20 is far more likely.

And if LGV Picardie gets built that will drop to essentially the three hour mark (it should in theory be open before HS2-2).
 
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TheKnightWho

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And what exactly do all those security checks actually achieve on a train?
Terrorists aren't going to take over and ram the train into a building.

'Take this train to its scheduled destination!'

Additionally a bomb on the train is uneccesary when they can use a car bomb rammed through the fence onto HS1.

The same logic applies to airport security too. Why bother going to all that trouble to set a bomb off in a plane, when you could just let it off in (off all places) the queue for security! In fact, there're probably more than a plane's worth of people there in the first place.

The whole business, for both planes and trains, is nothing but petty nationalism, and has solved nothing whilst inconveniencing many. No doubt there's a need for passport checks when people are arriving from a non-EU country, but the ridiculous, time-consuming extent we take over security is nothing but politicians pandering to paranoid, swivel-eyed loons.
 

Loki

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Being a signatory to Schengen would be purely symbolic for the UK. It would do nothing at all to reduce or eliminate security checks, as anyone who has traveled between Schengen countries, or indeed flown to a destination within the British Isles, will confirm. Passport checks rarely take more than a few minutes or even seconds. Security often takes in excess of thirty minutes, especially at major airports.

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are not landline checks in Schengen areas. There isn't even anyone to check you or any form of a border at all. There are airline checks for different reasons but no train/car/bus checks. Also if you think joining Schengen is purely symbolic I suggest you have a talk with the tourist agencies, they have a different opinion. 1.2b pounds loss per year opinion. Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/10060032/Schengen-visa-campaign-waste-of-time.html
 
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HSTEd

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The same logic applies to airport security too. Why bother going to all that trouble to set a bomb off in a plane, when you could just let it off in (off all places) the queue for security! In fact, there're probably more than a plane's worth of people there in the first place.

Because weapons and explosives can be used as leverage to take control of the plane, which is a far more deadly weapon than the bomb is.
The amount of damage an airliner can do is rather large as we've seen.

You can't do anything with a train that can cause such massive damage.
 

AndyLandy

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Because weapons and explosives can be used as leverage to take control of the plane, which is a far more deadly weapon than the bomb is.
The amount of damage an airliner can do is rather large as we've seen.

You can't do anything with a train that can cause such massive damage.

The best fix there is to minimise the ability to do that by isolating the cockpit from the passenger saloon as much as possible. That may be problematic on existing aircraft, but certainly new ones should be built with this in mind.
 
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The whole business, for both planes and trains, is nothing but petty nationalism, and has solved nothing whilst inconveniencing many. No doubt there's a need for passport checks when people are arriving from a non-EU country, but the ridiculous, time-consuming extent we take over security is nothing but politicians pandering to paranoid, swivel-eyed loons.

Control over territorial borders is one of the halmarks and duties of a state. It is implicit in your arguement that you consider the EU the de facto state.
 

TheKnightWho

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Because weapons and explosives can be used as leverage to take control of the plane, which is a far more deadly weapon than the bomb is.
The amount of damage an airliner can do is rather large as we've seen.

You can't do anything with a train that can cause such massive damage.

True, but if I were a terrorist I'd simply let off bombs in the security areas of ten of the UK's largest airports. All that glass in Heathrow Terminal 5 would be pretty damn deadly if it shattered, for example.

Control over territorial borders is one of the halmarks and duties of a state. It is implicit in your arguement that you consider the EU the de facto state.

You're creating a false dichotomy between the EU and the UK there. I most certainly consider the UK the de facto state, but I'm saying that there is no advantage to having so much security over people incoming from other EU states.

Or are you saying that France and Germany are somehow not states anymore?
 
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The Ham

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True, but if I were a terrorist I'd simply ...

There are lots of ways that could be thought of causing death to many if you were a terrorist, including many ways of bypassing existing security measures if you were to put your mind to it. However I would recommend that if you think of them that you don't post them on a public forum on the internet which anyone can look up and then follow through with if they were so mindful.
 

NotATrainspott

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True, but if I were a terrorist I'd simply let off bombs in the security areas of ten of the UK's largest airports. All that glass in Heathrow Terminal 5 would be pretty damn deadly if it shattered, for example.

Cracked.com had an article written by head of security at Ben Gurion Airport in Israel, where he laid out everything that's wrong with airport security in the US and almost certainly Britain as well. The glass is a particularly egregious design error for security.

The fact remains that trains are not targets in the same way as aircraft are. What would blowing up a Eurostar actually do? It's probably the least densely packed train on the network, running on brand new infrastructure where any blast forces would dissipate much more than on a tube or classic line. The trains themselves, even at the faster speed they go at, would be much less likely to derail due to the simplicity of the surrounding track infrastructure and their articulated design. The media wouldn't have the same immediate access to the carnage - it would happen far away from people on a viaduct, in a cutting or in a tunnel.

Tube and commuter trains are much more valuable targets, but even after 7/7 the network rebounded very quickly and London got back on its feet. It is impossible to screen every single passenger on our network due to its sheer size and interconnectedness. We aren't even able to fence off a lot of it from farm animals!

Since the Barcelona-Paris services have started on the continent the Spanish insistence on scanning passenger luggage has become utterly meaningless. You are scanned going from Spain to Paris but not the other way around, and when you arrive in Spain you are on the 'secure' side of the station without ever going through any form of ID check or security.

The threat of terrorism has been hyped up beyond belief in the Western world. The number of people killed is statistically insignificant and the security measures we have at airports have never once stopped an act taking place. Either terrorists get through them (or their plans would get through them - the airline plots) or they are stopped before they have even left their houses on their way to their target. The number of people who would ever carry out an atrocity in the UK is never going to be above single digits and they now tend to be rather incompetent and easy to detect.

I still feel that at St Pancras the designers knew that the need for security was complete tosh. Otherwise, why would they separate the unsecure and 'secure' areas with a glass divider only two or so metres tall? Even without this I don't imagine that the station is truly kept separate for the hundreds of staff needed to keep it ticking, some of whom are likely agency workers without any security clearance whatsoever.
 
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TheKnightWho

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There are lots of ways that could be thought of causing death to many if you were a terrorist, including many ways of bypassing existing security measures if you were to put your mind to it. However I would recommend that if you think of them that you don't post them on a public forum on the internet which anyone can look up and then follow through with if they were so mindful.

I wouldn't have thought I was anything like the first person to have thought of such things (indeed - that Cracked article in the post after yours is an example of a published magazine doing the same to a much greater degree!)
 

edwin_m

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Because weapons and explosives can be used as leverage to take control of the plane, which is a far more deadly weapon than the bomb is.
The amount of damage an airliner can do is rather large as we've seen.

You can't do anything with a train that can cause such massive damage.

There's also that an aircraft is pressurised, relatively lightly built and a long way up in the air. A small device at the right time and place, easily concealed in a piece of luggage, has a high probability of killing everyone on board. None of this is true of a train.

From what I heard, it appears that the station at Volgograd was protected by metal detectors but the suicide bomber last week blew up their device before reaching them and still managed to kill 15 or so. Another one caused similar carnage the next day by blowing up a bus.
 

jon0844

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It's been said many times that a suicide bomber facing a security checkpoint has nothing to lose by setting off the bomb there and then. In fact, there's a good chance there's a lot of people in the vicinity and could well be the intended target in the first place.

So I did think it was a bit odd that given a checkpoint is a particularly good place to blow yourself up, Putin decided to step up security with more checkpoints!

It's the same thing I said after 7/7 when the police began to stop people randomly (!) to check their bags. Four or five officers at times to check one person, and not always away from other passengers (certainly not led away into a quiet or confined area). If you had a bomb and now knew it was going to be discovered, would you just let them find it and arrest you?
 

TheKnightWho

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It's been said many times that a suicide bomber facing a security checkpoint has nothing to lose by setting off the bomb there and then. In fact, there's a good chance there's a lot of people in the vicinity and could well be the intended target in the first place.

So I did think it was a bit odd that given a checkpoint is a particularly good place to blow yourself up, Putin decided to step up security with more checkpoints!

It's the same thing I said after 7/7 when the police began to stop people randomly (!) to check their bags. Four or five officers at times to check one person, and not always away from other passengers (certainly not led away into a quiet or confined area). If you had a bomb and now knew it was going to be discovered, would you just let them find it and arrest you?

It's very difficult to persuade politicians to do anything other than the "common sense" solution when it comes to security, which is more, more, more, regardless of whether it actually does anything.
 

Metrailway

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You have no idea what you are talking about. There are not landline checks in Schengen areas. There isn't even anyone to check you or any form of a border at all. There are airline checks for different reasons but no train/car/bus checks. Also if you think joining Schengen is purely symbolic I suggest you have a talk with the tourist agencies, they have a different opinion. 1.2b pounds loss per year opinion. Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/10060032/Schengen-visa-campaign-waste-of-time.html

Incorrect, there are still a significant number of 'internal border' checks within the Schengen area. For example, if one tried to reach Austria from Italy by train, you are likely to get your passport/travel documents checked several times. It is common to be checked when travelling between France and Italy by train or Germany - Denmark as well.

The problem with Schengen is that non-border member states (such as France) have to place their trust in Schengen border countries (such as Italy or Greece), to police their borders effectively. It why Schengen nearly collapsed in 2011, when Italy was generously handing out Schengen residency permits to Arab Spring migrants and allegelly encouraging them to move out of Italy and into France, Austria, Germany etc.
 

JohnB57

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You have no idea what you are talking about. There are not landline checks in Schengen areas. There isn't even anyone to check you or any form of a border at all. There are airline checks for different reasons but no train/car/bus checks. Also if you think joining Schengen is purely symbolic I suggest you have a talk with the tourist agencies, they have a different opinion. 1.2b pounds loss per year opinion. Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/10060032/Schengen-visa-campaign-waste-of-time.html
I'm sorry - I think you either misunderstood me or you only partly read what I said.

I'm fully aware of where and when passport and security checks take place both in and out of Schengen. I have experienced them very frequently. What I said was that for the UK, the elimination of passport controls alone would have such a small effect in comparison with airline and tunnel security checks that there is simply no meaningful advantage to us in signing up - the time saved would be tiny. Given that it is impossible just to drive over a border without stopping, as it is on the continent and at some point tickets etc have to be checked, even for truck drivers, there is little advantage.

I agree with others that security checks have dubious value. But as I stated previously, I can't envisage any future government stopping them.
 

Loki

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Incorrect, there are still a significant number of 'internal border' checks within the Schengen area. For example, if one tried to reach Austria from Italy by train, you are likely to get your passport/travel documents checked several times. It is common to be checked when travelling between France and Italy by train or Germany - Denmark as well.

There are no internal borders or border checks in Schengen areas. Not a single one. If a police officer decided to check your ID/travel documents he/she can do that at any moment on any train including trains between London and Birmingham without having a border between the two cities....exactly like there are no internal borders in Schengen. Only in special circumstances internal border can be reinstated.
Here is what a typical Schengen "border" looks like. A sign.

The problem with Schengen is that non-border member states (such as France) have to place their trust in Schengen border countries (such as Italy or Greece), to police their borders effectively. It why Schengen nearly collapsed in 2011, when Italy was generously handing out Schengen residency permits to Arab Spring migrants and allegelly encouraging them to move out of Italy and into France, Austria, Germany etc.

Italy has as much external borders as France has.
You don't have to place any trust in nothing as the immigration laws are clearly defined for a country that is part of the Schengen area. If someone breaches them there will be consequences. It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of following rules to which all agreed contrary to what scaremongering populists such as Farage would like the general population to believe. Of course from time to time you will have immigration problems (exactly like you will without being in Schengen) but overall I can't think of a single country in Schengen that is worse of only because of joining in.

I'm sorry - I think you either misunderstood me or you only partly read what I said.

I'm fully aware of where and when passport and security checks take place both in and out of Schengen. I have experienced them very frequently. What I said was that for the UK, the elimination of passport controls alone would have such a small effect in comparison with airline and tunnel security checks that there is simply no meaningful advantage to us in signing up - the time saved would be tiny. Given that it is impossible just to drive over a border without stopping, as it is on the continent and at some point tickets etc have to be checked, even for truck drivers, there is little advantage.

I agree with others that security checks have dubious value. But as I stated previously, I can't envisage any future government stopping them.

The passport controls have a large impact on tourism and it is a negative one.
When it comes to the Chunnel joining Schengen will speed things up quite a bit especially when you include potential HS2 to continent connections.
Any other form of checks when it comes to trains is pure paranoia and I agree with the others they do more harm than good.

Given that it is impossible just to drive over a border without stopping, as it is on the continent and at some point tickets etc have to be checked, even for truck drivers, there is little advantage.
Not sure what you mean here. Why do you need to stop at the border if we join Schengen?
 
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JohnB57

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The passport controls have a large impact on tourism and it is a negative one.
When it comes to the Chunnel joining Schengen will speed things up quite a bit especially when you include potential HS2 to continent connections.
Any other form of checks when it comes to trains is pure paranoia and I agree with the others they do more harm than good.
Passport checks take seconds. In isolation, they are meaningless. I have crossed borders by all modes of transport and only a couple of times, both at Stansted as it happens, have passport checks delayed me at all.

Your point about tourism is an entirely separate political one. Arguably, £1.2bn is a small price to pay to know who enters and leaves the country, but agree or disagree, that's where the UK is and maybe Ireland too and it's where our political masters want us to stay.

Forgive me for mentioning it, but from your name and your posts, you may not be a native English speaker. Your perspective and experience may therefore be different but as a seasoned traveler, I certainly do "know what I'm talking about".
 

Loki

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Passport checks take seconds. In isolation, they are meaningless. I have crossed borders by all modes of transport and only a couple of times, both at Stansted as it happens, have passport checks delayed me at all.

If passport checks are meaningless why not abolish them?
Entertain this idea for a moment: there is a passenger train travelling from Birmingham to Paris also stopping in both London and Brussels (and another one on the way back to Birmingham). A passenger may travel from any stop to any other stop on the route. How would you design a passport check system?

Your point about tourism is an entirely separate political one. Arguably, £1.2bn is a small price to pay to know who enters and leaves the country, but agree or disagree, that's where the UK is and maybe Ireland too and it's where our political masters want us to stay.

I wouldn't address any politician as my master (or anyone for that matter). :)
But on the question I don't see how 1,2bn is a money well spent for some next to useless information. Certainly you can make an argument the info is well worth it but then again why do the other 26 countries disagree? If our politicians have discovered some very good argument the others seem to have missed I would love to hear it but otherwise I'd stick to the 1,2bn. :)
 
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JohnB57

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If passport checks are meaningless why not abolish them?
Entertain this idea for a moment: there is a passenger train travelling from Birmingham to Paris also stopping in both London and Brussels (and another one on the way back to Birmingham). A passenger may travel from any stop to any other stop on the route. How would you design a passport check system?



I wouldn't address any politician as my master (or anyone for that matter). :)
But on the question I don't see how 1,2bn is a money well spent for some next to useless information. Certainly you can make an argument the info is well worth it but then again why do the other 26 countries disagree? If our politicians have discovered some very good argument the others seem to have missed I would love to hear it but otherwise I'd stick to the 1,2bn. :)
Hmmm. In response to your previous point, edited in after my reply. We also have water crossings and for any transit, a ticket of some form is required.

1. I would simply check passports at the departure and arrival stations. It's so easy, it doesn't need anything more. It's as simple as Oyster.

2. "Political Masters" is simply how we refer to the people we elected in this democracy. And the other 26 countries can do what suits them.
 
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Loki

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Hmmm. In response to your previous point, edited in after my reply. We also have water crossings and for any transit, a ticket of some form is required.

That's fine. Schengen does not affect ticket checks.

1. I would simply check passports at the departure and arrival stations. It's so easy, it doesn't need anything more. It's as simple as Oyster.

So in order for such a train service to exist we need to reinstate passport checks between Paris and Brussels as well as introduce checks between Birmingham and London?

And the other 26 countries can do what suits them.

But that does not really answer the question. The government has a burden of proof (that is not met) and the dismissal of 26 peers with opposite views doesn't help the case a bit.
 

33Hz

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I know two regular travelers that have recently been passport checked by French immigration coming in from Italy and Spain. This was not happening until the last couple of months.

As for requiring x-ray checks because of the tunnel - can't remember the last time I was checked going through the Alps. It's ridiculous.
 

Francis

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Loki wrote: "There are no internal borders or border checks in Schengen areas. Not a single one."
This is the official line, but in practice it can be quite different. Travelling in a Ukrainian registered vehicle from Poland into Germany, some 2 miles over the border, the German police pulled off a layby and followed us along the motorway, before overtaking and flashing us: "Folgen bitte." They led us to a layby where they checked my Ukrainian friend's visa, insurance, vehicle licence etc. Every time he does the journey the same thing happens. So, no official checks, but in practice, in a vehicle from outside the EU, you are likely to be pulled over. And the reasons for it are perfectly understandable.
 

jon0844

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Wasn't Denmark doing much the same at its 'borders' recently (I say recently, perhaps a year or two ago)?

I seem to recall a bit of a fuss over it too, on the basis that it was supposed to be allowing free movement.
 
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Wasn't Denmark doing much the same at its 'borders' recently (I say recently, perhaps a year or two ago)?

I seem to recall a bit of a fuss over it too, on the basis that it was supposed to be allowing free movement.

Denmark basically tore up Schengen in early 2011 but I'm not sure if that changed with the election of a centre-left PM later in the year.
 

HSTEd

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That article makes it look like this is just Anti HS2 campaigners trying to drive up the cost of the project to get it scrapped.
 

NotATrainspott

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Apparently a Chinese rail company have expressed an interest in reopening the Stonebridge railway to link the Birmingham interchange to the wider area.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25664983

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They'll have to get a move on if they don't want the people mover depot built right on top of it! If they are successful then I don't imagine the cost to HS2 Ltd being much at all - CRG would probably have to pay for the changes needed.

Birmingham Post article says it has been costed at up to £280m but would be financed by CRG themselves.

This seems to be an excellent way of getting publicity and support for an entry to the UK civil engineering industry. The M6/M42 Junction is at grade with the old route so there would need to be a pretty major diversion needed either of the road or more likely the railway.
 

tbtc

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