High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[HSTEd]

Indeed people do tend to vote for reduced interference from the state, but then scream like anything when the market produces a result they don't like.

See fuel price rises and so on.

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed people do tend to vote for reduced interference from the state, but then scream like anything when the market produces a result they don't like.

See fuel price rises and so on.

which is a quirk of the public anyway.....indeed energy prices have been a hot topic recently ( if you pardon the pun ). But I cant argue with the fact that I do have a choice of utility providers, and indeed i can install my own solar panels if I so wish....add in the fact that pensioners can qualify for winter fuel payments etc and its clear that those that are unable to provide for themselves wont fall off the radar.

And if I m not mistaken, the state can also use the stick of windfall tax to beat the utilities with if it felt they were profiteering...

 

[Kettledrum]

So why not just privatise Network rail and let it have its own choice of investment capital free from government interference and more responsive to the needs of its customers?

That was tried with Railtrack, and I'm afraid it didn't work.

Railtrack went off the rails.

 

[Moonshot]

I m fully aware of that kettledrum......but I cant help thinking we will see a return to it in the not too distant future. It has defo not escaped my notice that Network Rail are devolving more funding regionally whilst at the same time setting up so called alliances with TOCS. Now there IS a recipe for privatising !!

 

[PMN1]

Guardian figures on the cost of PFI

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jul/05/pfi-cost-300bn

more or less same figures elsewhere.

As has been stated it was simply a con to allow the previous government make it look like it was spending more on services than it was and now we are stuck with it and given what the current government is offering in a desperate bid to have someone build nuclear (2-3 x the going rate and linked to inflation) the lesson has not been learnt.

 

[edwin_m]

Rushcliffe Council now want a station at East Midlands Parkway instead of Toton.

http://www.nottinghampost.com/Parkway-backed-HS2-station/story-20251972-detail/story.html

The council says: "There has been significant investment in dualling the A453, which will provide a high speed link to both Nottingham city centre, the M1 and other East Midlands cities.

"There are already rail links from the East Midlands Parkway Station to Nottingham, Derby and Leicester City centres.

"It is considered that the benefits of having a HS2 Station directly connected to the existing wider rail network would outweigh the initial construction issues associated with development at East Midlands Parkway."

Rather ironic as one of the stated reasons HS2 went for Toton was the unwillingness of Rushcliffe to allow development at the Parkway.

 

[HSTEd]

East Midlands Parkway is useless though as a railhead for Nottingham and Derby, it is too far from anywhere.

 

[Moonshot]

Guardian figures on the cost of PFI

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jul/05/pfi-cost-300bn

more or less same figures elsewhere.

As has been stated it was simply a con to allow the previous government make it look like it was spending more on services than it was and now we are stuck with it and given what the current government is offering in a desperate bid to have someone build nuclear (2-3 x the going rate and linked to inflation) the lesson has not been learnt.

Indeed............clearly a few lessons to be learned in the way these contracts are formulated, but I m still of the view that the more we can take out of state hands the better. At a bare minimum, education and health are going to be state run and free at the point of use for years and years to come, but the idea of the individual having a choice elsewhere is something I do subscribe to...

 

[HowardGWR]

Rushcliffe Council now want a station at East Midlands Parkway instead of Toton.

http://www.nottinghampost.com/Parkway-backed-HS2-station/story-20251972-detail/story.html



Rather ironic as one of the stated reasons HS2 went for Toton was the unwillingness of Rushcliffe to allow development at the Parkway.

I love the idea of the A453 being a 'high speed link'.

They have a point though. Also the airport is nearer.

 

[IKBrunel]

E.On also opposed the building of East Mids Pkwy (EMD), but have since built a new pedestrian gate onto the access road so their staff can access it from their offices...

HS2@EMD aint gonna happen
Toton is a brownfield site & has much better connections to centres of population, more bus routes passing nearby & the Tram will be extended there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But I ll agree that there are certain elements of PFI which do look very poor, but I rather think that is down to the quality of Civil Service Procurement professionals who appear to lack some serious commercial nous.....a fact which manifested itself recently in the West Coast Franchise farce....

Maybe, but PFI was part of a creeping slide towards a more US style health service with much greater private involvement. This increased private involvement will give us more value for money because all the lazy doctors and nurses will have to work harder*. Or will it?

The US fed govt spends twice as much per capita as the UK on healthcare.
The UK gets universal free healthcare. The US provides limited free healthcare to a small proportion of its population. ref:'The Undercover Economist' Tim Harford. Where does all the money go - a myriad of companies (bit like UK rail). If you're a redneck you just suck up the pain & hope it doesn't go to gangrene.
*sarcasm

 

[Moonshot]

Where does all the money go indeed...!! Having worked in the NHS, absolutely nothing wrong with the actual frontline care, but the passage to delivering that care leaves a lot to be desired.....I m all for commissioning boards with patient involvement. Which if applied to the rail industry, would involve passengers as stakeholders, and one example of that is Community Rail Partnerships.....

 

[MidlandMainlie]

East Midlands Parkway is useless though as a railhead for Nottingham and Derby, it is too far from anywhere.

That will be even less popular than a station at Toton which a 93 year old woman was complaining would require her to get 2 buses to get to from Hucknall in the Nottingham Evening Post a few days ago, she will be 113 when HS2 finally opens at Toton :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed............clearly a few lessons to be learned in the way these contracts are formulated, but I m still of the view that the more we can take out of state hands the better. At a bare minimum, education and health are going to be state run and free at the point of use for years and years to come, but the idea of the individual having a choice elsewhere is something I do subscribe to...

We've heard it all before.

The promises that privatisation will cure all. The excesses of the market, even banks having to be bailed out by the state. Bus deregulation, Railtrack. Perhaps the most laughable example of this market fixation was the sale of the eminently dull but reliable 192 service in replace of a myriad of different numbers which promptly hastened directory enquiries death.

Sorry, but when someone starts spouting the wonders of the free market, my eyes roll :roll:

 

[Moonshot]

Guardian figures on the cost of PFI

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jul/05/pfi-cost-300bn

more or less same figures elsewhere.

As has been stated it was simply a con to allow the previous government make it look like it was spending more on services than it was and now we are stuck with it and given what the current government is offering in a desperate bid to have someone build nuclear (2-3 x the going rate and linked to inflation) the lesson has not been learnt.

I was just re reading that link you posted and delving a bit more into the detail. One thing that is striking from the post is that whilst most of the PFI contracts were signed under Labour, a few have also been made by the current coalition. This is somewhat suprising ....all 3 main parties seem to be thinking that PFI is a good idea.

As per usual , the devil is in the detail ( my favourite phrase ) and at first glance the differential in figures quoted for cost and what is ultimately paid back by the state seem unreal. However I had a look at one project in some depth - Wythenshawe Hospital in South Manchester. I ll assume that the project is a re build as its been there donkeys years, the cost was £84 million. The state ( in the form of South Manchester NHS trust ) is being asked to pay back £892 million in nominal payments.

At first glance that looks a horrendous rip off - until you realise that £605 million of that is actually payments what the trust would have been making anyway for services such as gas, electric, water , maintainance etc.....in fact the total facilities management. A further £160 million is paid out against the actual building , in other words the mortgage over 35 years. A suprising further figure is tax - £51 million. This leaves a figure of £86 million - which is accounted for as the equity return on shareholders funds of £6.9 million ( which were used for initial funding of the project - the rest of which came from the banking sector ) The equity return equates to around 10% per year compounded. Its not difficult to see why private equity gets involved at that sort of level, however to what extent it proves to be value for money for the state is something that is a little beyond the scope of my knowledge.

I would say though that as usual , a high ranking union official in the form of Dave Prentis jumped on the bandwagon and I quote

...."PFI had left the UK with a "staggering mountain of debt," Prentis said.

Not so sure how in the case I just detailed how £ 892 million can be classed as debt when the vast majority of that figure is in fact future planned payments for services that havent been consumed yet.

 

[NotATrainspott]

In general it just seems to be the case that any of the inevitable inefficiencies caused by a natural state monopoly aren't cured by a move to the private sector; all that happens is that a different set of inefficiencies appears as you get more fragmentation and have profit siphoned off. When you allow private companies to take these profits they're going to do everything in their power to minimise their tax liability, whether rightly or wrongly.

In the EU we've been the loser of the prisoner's dilemma as the other state monopolies have been able to take advantage of our privatisation, while we no longer have a single company capable of the same level of success over there. I know National Express just won a single German contract, there's nothing in the rules to say that BR wouldn't have been able to bid for the same and for more just so long as Network Rail had been split off as it is today.

 

[Moonshot]

Oh I m not saying that the private sector doesnt have ineffciencies......but bringing in competitive forces to deliver best value seems nowadays to have cross party support. At the smaller end of this, current policy seems to be geared to encouraging local groups to run what is currently state delivered - even if that does mean in the not for profit sector of which I m a fan of. In fact , there is nothing to stop ASLEF bidding in their own right for the next East Coast franchise and running it as a co op.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In fact , there is nothing to stop ASLEF bidding in their own right for the next East Coast franchise and running it as a co op.

I wonder how Bob Crow would fancy having top jobs at both the RMT and as the head of an RMT franchise...He would be able to give himself grief on a quarterly basis over issues that may arise....

 

[Moonshot]

I wonder how Bob Crow would fancy having top jobs at both the RMT and as the head of an RMT franchise...He would be able to give himself grief on a quarterly basis over issues that may arise....

In actual fact if that did happen, the RMT would cease to exist.....why would a Co oP need a union if the very nature of the Co oP brought about voting rights for everyone. East Coast franchise would seem an ideal opportunity to try this out....and would also be a fantastic opportunity to scribe the terms and conditions of a franchise in less prescriptive terms. The ultimate test would be if that scenario delivered maximum benefit for the passenger and the stakeholders.....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In actual fact if that did happen, the RMT would cease to exist.....why would a Co oP need a union if the very nature of the Co oP brought about voting rights for everyone. East Coast franchise would seem an ideal opportunity to try this out....and would also be a fantastic opportunity to scribe the terms and conditions of a franchise in less prescriptive terms. The ultimate test would be if that scenario delivered maximum benefit for the passenger and the stakeholders.....

In 1870, the Co-operative Union was set up as a result taken at the 1869 Co-operative Congress with the aim of working to offer aid to the workforce of the Co-operative movement and to ensure exchanges of views for best practise between the workforce and the management structure.

 

[Moonshot]

There you go then Paul....problem solved. Make every part of the rail network a Co-oP , conditonal that its completely free from government interference.

 

[joeykins82]

Actually there's quite a lot to stop ASLEF bidding for a franchise: you need to have a sizeable about of cash in the bank to put up as a performance bond, and most of the questions on the bidding form relate to you proving your experience as an operator of public transport services.

 

[Moonshot]

Actually there's quite a lot to stop ASLEF bidding for a franchise: you need to have a sizeable about of cash in the bank to put up as a performance bond, and most of the questions on the bidding form relate to you proving your experience as an operator of public transport services.

Well in terms of experience, I reckon that adding up all the years of service that East Coast staff have between them would probably dwarf pretty much anywhere else. Are they not actually operating the service now?

As for having sizeable amounts of cash, isnt there a general criticism of TOCS in that they actually bid for franchises with thinly capitalised special purpose vehicles?? In other words they risk little of their own capital?

 

[dggar]

There you go then Paul....problem solved. Make every part of the rail network a Co-oP , conditonal that its completely free from government interference.

and run by an incompetant, disgraced methodist minister who may have once had a train set.

 

[Moonshot]

and run by an incompetant, disgraced methodist minister who may have once had a train set.

How does that relate to East Coast?

 

[joeykins82]

The sensible option would be for DOR to be allowed to bid on all franchises. I would imagine that after a couple of resounding victories the other TOCs might up their game at bidding time.

 

[Moonshot]

The sensible option would be for DOR to be allowed to bid on all franchises. I would imagine that after a couple of resounding victories the other TOCs might up their game at bidding time.

On the surface, that would seem a good idea......but who would it rely on for working capital?

 

[dggar]

How does that relate to East Coast?

It doesn't.

It refers to your post #6170 where YOU mention Co-oP.

 

[Moonshot]

So the fact that a " bad egg" turns up at the top of the Co operative Bank structure is a reason not to introduce that style of ownership into the rail industry?

 

[HowardGWR]

So the fact that a " bad egg" turns up at the top of the Co operative Bank structure is a reason not to introduce that style of ownership into the rail industry?

He was anyway just the Chairman, he just sat there while someone else made the decisions (CE). I don't see that the Co-op bank has been managed any worse than the others, who all went bust and were bailed out at our expense. I also don't really see what this has to do with HS2 as the points made could be about any part of the economy. There are political sites for that.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wildly away from HS2 here are we not?