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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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IKBrunel

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in response to Edwin M, I agree in general in the UK there is too much focus on long distance and leisure cycle routes and often not enough emphasis on getting into town centres. I think that has been due to a combination of what could be done cheaply and what could attract grant funding. To redress this imbalance it would make sense for SS" to be HS2 +/10 miles rather than +/-3miles, to allow more flexibility in satisfying actual demand. But I suppose the 3 mile thing is so they can sell it as a community benefit of HS2...

I also agree that it many cases it would make sense to include the SS2 alignment in HS2 CPOs, but because SS2 is being run as a separate project, that doesn't look likely. I suppose the reason for keeping it separate was that its an idea which only appeared within the last 6 months & they didn't want it to have any impact on the HS2 timetable.
 
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The Ham

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in response to Edwin M, I agree in general in the UK there is too much focus on long distance and leisure cycle routes and often not enough emphasis on getting into town centres. I think that has been due to a combination of what could be done cheaply and what could attract grant funding. To redress this imbalance it would make sense for SS" to be HS2 +/10 miles rather than +/-3miles, to allow more flexibility in satisfying actual demand. But I suppose the 3 mile thing is so they can sell it as a community benefit of HS2...

I also agree that it many cases it would make sense to include the SS2 alignment in HS2 CPOs, but because SS2 is being run as a separate project, that doesn't look likely. I suppose the reason for keeping it separate was that its an idea which only appeared within the last 6 months & they didn't want it to have any impact on the HS2 timetable.

As someone who cycles I can see the argument for cycle lanes within towns, however I can also see that having cycle routes between towns has a big benefit as traffic speeds within towns are lower compared to between towns.

As such it is likely that SS2 would become a catalyst for towns to provide better cycle facilities. (e.g. if there are a number of shops who start seeing more cyclists using them then the shop owners may push for better cycle facilities or may even provide more cycle parking within their car park, or a town may wish to enable cyclists to get to a tourist destination and/or employment area and in doing so provide better facilities for others).
 

YorkshireBear

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They can provide money for it then good for them. Not sure i want them building and operating it but that's just me.
 

59CosG95

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They can provide money for it then good for them. Not sure i want them building and operating it but that's just me.

From what I understand, the Chinese pour the money in, but if they build it, we will be overseeing that it gets built to British safety standards-a time when we can thankful for 'elf and safety! The whole reason why the viaduct collapsed in China was skimping on time-like us with the ECML wires. Nowadays, we would do all the strength testing and suchlike before the line was commissioned; something that I'm grateful for!
 

IKBrunel

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To build a gulag for the nimbys? :lol: (sorry couldn't resist). But seriously, human rights situation in China continues to be very poor, esp for minority groups.
 
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Nym

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To build a gulag for the nimbys? :lol: (sorry couldn't resist). But seriously, human rights situation in China continues to be very poor, esp for minority groups.

And they're so much better in other countries that pour money into the UK Economy?

India?
UAE?
Qatar?
Japan? (More historical than current.)
Isrel? (Yes, they do.)

And to a lesser extent on trade agreements...

Russia, South Africa, Korea, Thailand, The US?
 
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HSTEd

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And what do they want in return for this 'investment'.

It stinks of trading long term economic benefits for short term political benefit.... again.
 

jon0844

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They can provide money for it then good for them. Not sure i want them building and operating it but that's just me.

Definitely don't want them providing/mixing the concrete!

And what do they want in return for this 'investment'.

It stinks of trading long term economic benefits for short term political benefit.... again.

But that's the same with us and the US or us and Europe.. and indeed anywhere else in the world (even HS2 is partly sold on the basis it will let us do more 'trade' with other parts of the UK and move away from being so London/SE focussed).

In a global economy, we have to do deals with these people - especially when China is now such a great power.

What's the alternative? To deliberately NOT do trade with China, and impose huge levies on imported goods?
 
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Holly

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... What's the alternative? To deliberately NOT do trade with China, and impose huge levies on imported goods?
With have a European Common Market (as was) and erect tariff barriers against far away countries that pay their people in washers.
Worked fine until the plantation owners took control of democracies using their information technologies.
 
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HSTEd

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What's the alternative? To deliberately NOT do trade with China, and impose huge levies on imported goods?

I did not say do anything protectionist.

Any deal will essentially be a PFI.

I would prefer not having more PFIs, if these people wish to invest they can do so by purchasing gilts.
 

Moonshot

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I did not say do anything protectionist.

Any deal will essentially be a PFI.

I would prefer not having more PFIs, if these people wish to invest they can do so by purchasing gilts.


isnt it true that PFIs have built a large number of brand new community health facilities up and down the UK ( so called LIFT centres ) ?. I dont see any complaints from the end user ( ie the Patient ).
 

Moonshot

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PFIs cost the taxpayer a fortune


I never said it didnt.......but on the other hand a signifcant portion of PFI contracts are in fact run as investment fund portfolios by UK pension groups.

And as I said, the ultimate beneficiary in the example I quoted is the medical patient.....
 

gordonthemoron

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it is cheaper for the government (i.e. Network Rail) to raise money by buying gilts than have a PFI as the latter will find it more costly to raise money and will want a profit ontop
 

Moonshot

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it is cheaper for the government (i.e. Network Rail) to raise money by buying gilts than have a PFI as the latter will find it more costly to raise money and will want a profit ontop

So why not just privatise Network rail and let it have its own choice of investment capital free from government interference and more responsive to the needs of its customers?
 
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Moonshot

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Yes, The Government* can borrow money at a lower rate of interest than private companies because it is seen as a lower risk investment. (* and govt subsidiaries like NR)

Network Rail pays an idemnity fee to the government for the right to have its debt underwritten, so not quite as cheap as it may seem. Network Rail finances itself for capex purposes using currency bonds, which in common with other large corporations, uses hedge fund instruments to mitigate the risk of currency exchange rates. In fact. it reported a loss of some £500 million on this particular activity not so long back. So not quite as clear cut as it seems, as always the devil is in the detail, and one such detail is that the ORR regulates Network Rail on its debt .....its not to exceed something like 75% of the value of the regulated asset base.
 

PMN1

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isnt it true that PFIs have built a large number of brand new community health facilities up and down the UK ( so called LIFT centres ) ?. I dont see any complaints from the end user ( ie the Patient ).

They are ignoring the fact they will be paying for it several time over in the long run.
 
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HSTEd

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I never said it didnt.......but on the other hand a signifcant portion of PFI contracts are in fact run as investment fund portfolios by UK pension groups.

And as I said, the ultimate beneficiary in the example I quoted is the medical patient.....

So we hand yet more money to the small fraction of the population that have decent pension pots? How does this help?
Why not cut out the middleman and improve the state pension instead?

The patient benefits because his/her taxes have to be higher to throw money at pension funds, most of which are not for the benefit of British residents?

Why should the British state provide a good investment opportunity for Canadian schoolteachers for example?

isnt it true that PFIs have built a large number of brand new community health facilities up and down the UK ( so called LIFT centres ) ?. I dont see any complaints from the end user ( ie the Patient ).

As various BBC documentaries have established time and again, there was no other option for hospital trusts that needed new facilities than to use PFI deals.
The Treasury effectively forbade them from using government money to build anything, probably partly to keep government spending figures down for short term political advantage (by obliterating the capital spending budget) and partially as part of the long term plan to increasingly break apart the NHS and prepare it for privatisation.
 

Moonshot

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They are ignoring the fact they will be paying far more for it in the long run.

Which its not a matter which I would have thought concerned the patient.

Whether PFIs offer value for money is probably the subject of some very deep long term analysis, and I m not convinced there is enough data on this bearing in mind that these are long term committments and the PFI is still somewhat an immature industry. But I ll agree that there are certain elements of PFI which do look very poor, but I rather think that is down to the quality of Civil Service Procurement professionals who appear to lack some serious commercial nous.....a fact which manifested itself recently in the West Coast Franchise farce....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So we hand yet more money to the small fraction of the population that have decent pension pots? How does this help?
Why not cut out the middleman and improve the state pension instead?

The patient benefits because his/her taxes have to be higher to throw money at pension funds, most of which are not for the benefit of British residents?

Why should the British state provide a good investment opportunity for Canadian schoolteachers for example?



As various BBC documentaries have established time and again, there was no other option for hospital trusts that needed new facilities than to use PFI deals.
The Treasury effectively forbade them from using government money to build anything, probably partly to keep government spending figures down for short term political advantage (by obliterating the capital spending budget) and partially as part of the long term plan to increasingly break apart the NHS and prepare it for privatisation.


Ted.....the average age of the population is steadily rising, which puts increasing pressure on the ability to fund state pensions. So why have state pensions at all?? Why not just lower or abolish National Insurance and let the average person decide where or how he or she wants to fund his own pension? The qualifying age for state pension is also rising.....by the time I get there it will probably be 70. But what if I want to make my own free choice of retiring at 60? I clearly cant rely on the state to do that....

isnt is also true that a good number of UK pension funds benefit from overseas investments state or private.....including the Railway Industries own pension group which does have such instruments in its asset portfolio...
 

Deerfold

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And as I said, the ultimate beneficiary in the example I quoted is the medical patient.....

If PFIs are more expensive are patients really the ultimate beneficiary?

Or would it have been better to get more for that money?
 

Moonshot

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If PFIs are more expensive are patients really the ultimate beneficiary?

Or would it have been better to get more for that money?

In terms of having brand new state of the art facilities ...yes. I m at an advantage here....I actually worked in one till fairly recently, and I can safely state that the equipment the NHS was able to procure for its clinics was somewhat a lot more higher quality than it would have been able to the old fashioned way.

As i said, the patient certainly benefitted treatment wise..
 

HSTEd

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Ted.....the average age of the population is steadily rising, which puts increasing pressure on the ability to fund state pensions. So why have state pensions at all??

Because the alternative is to allow people to either starve/freeze to death in the streets or to work themselves to death because they simply can't afford to maintain any standard of living after 'retirement'.

l Why not just lower or abolish National Insurance and let the average person decide where or how he or she wants to fund his own pension?

What happens to the large number of people who never earn enough to pay significant amounts of national insurance?
On minimum wage, you would earn roughly £12100/yr, working 48 weeks a year and 40 hours a week.
That gives you national insurance charges payable on roughly £4352.
At 12% that means you would pay roughly £522 a year in national insurance.

Considering that many pension funds are these days barely able to keep pace with inflation, that means that after 40 years of work you will be able to accumulate National Insurance payments of £20880.
However the National Insurance take is larger than the state pension provision's cost, which means only 75% of NI payments could be abolished if the State Pension was scrapped, reducing us to roughly £15660.

I wonder how long you would last with only £15660 to live on as your retirement pot if you had just spent 40 years in minimum wage employment (which is going to be the future for a large part of the work force, assuming they can even get full time employment for the equivalent of 40 years which is far from certain in this job market) and thus didn't have much in the way of assets (and certainly didn't own a house to use as capital).

The qualifying age for state pension is also rising.....by the time I get there it will probably be 70. But what if I want to make my own free choice of retiring at 60? I clearly cant rely on the state to do that....

You can't rely on the state to give you an extra decade of retirement for nothing? Wow that is really hard for you :roll:
The fact that your life expectency is rather longer than it was for someone of your age when the 60 retirement age was set shouldn't come into it?
It seems reasonable to me that it should be locked to life expectancy and thus should climb/fall every year as the figures are updated.

Then again I think that about extending the educational period provided by the state for free as well....

isnt is also true that a good number of UK pension funds benefit from overseas investments state or private.....including the Railway Industries own pension group which does have such instruments in its asset portfolio...

The problem is that a rather large fraction of the workforce will never have significant pension funds simply because they can't afford to pay into them.
Especially since many will be self employed workers and thus not eligible for matching funds from their employer.

In terms of having brand new state of the art facilities ...yes. I m at an advantage here....I actually worked in one till fairly recently, and I can safely state that the equipment the NHS was able to procure for its clinics was somewhat a lot more higher quality than it would have been able to the old fashioned way.

As i said, the patient certainly benefitted treatment wise..

This is simply because the Treasury wanted to keep public borrowing down for short term political advantage and thus prevented them from spending the same amount of money that the private sector was able to.

If you sum up all the money the NHS will end up paying for the facility and then work backwards using public sector borrowing rates you would discover they could have gotten more if they had done it 'the old fashioned way'.

It is the Treasury syndrome of increasing the life cycle cost in favour of reducing the short term cost.
 
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Moonshot

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Because the alternative is to allow people to either starve/freeze to death in the streets or to work themselves to death because they simply can't afford to maintain any standard of living after 'retirement'.


But state pensions are a means tested benefit.....and I already see evidence of people working beyond retirement age anyway....the numbers are increasing. So if the state cannot provide enough because it would mean forcing current tax/ni payers to cough up more, what is the sensible long term plan? Bear in mind that current government budget deficits are funding consumption as well as investment.....
 

HSTEd

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But state pensions are a means tested benefit.....

No they aren't.

They are provided to anyone who can present a record of sufficient NI contributions in proportion to the "full time equivalent" worked up to retirement, up to a maximum value associated with 30 years worked full-time.

and I already see evidence of people working beyond retirement age anyway....the numbers are increasing.

And such people are entitled to draw their state pension while continuing to work.

So if the state cannot provide enough because it would mean forcing current tax/ni payers to cough up more, what is the sensible long term plan?

Increase retirement age in line with increases in life expectency, people should not expect to spend 20 years in retirement as a matter of course.

Bear in mind that current government budget deficits are funding consumption as well as investment.....

Yes, because we are at the bottom of the economic cycle.
The actual deficit is quite small in comparison with GDP.

In the short term the State should invest in building infrastructure that is likely to yield returns in excess of the very low current cost of government borrowing that will tend to produce additional income streams in the future.

Nuclear power plants, Crossrail 1/2/3/n and HS2 being examples of such projects.
 

Moonshot

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Ted .....clearly you have your own very entrenched views on this....and its not for me to change those. However, I cannot argue with the amount of voters who have cast their views over the 30 years or so in favour of reduced interference from the state. Even the labour party had to re write its own constitution ( so called clause iv ) to reflect that....and bear in mind that this is a rail forum, and this thread is about HS2, you maybe suprised to learn that the policy which brought about HS2 has its roots in a Euro Parliament white paper on transport......by the then transport commissioner Neil Kinnock....
 
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