High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[swt_passenger]

Franham to Alton is mostly single track and electrified.

As are significant stretches of the route to Weymouth. Not electrifying lines because they are single track, or because there's only a single train each way per hour, have both been suggested as deciding factors in previous discussions, and there are a few examples of both that disprove that theory....

 

[HSTEd]

The last part of the Alsager route into Crewe is indeed single line. Not yet mentioned are Upminster to Grays and the link from Stratford towards Fenchurch Street.

The case for electrification does indeed improve as other nearby routes are electrified, because of effects such as reduced running under the wires and eliminating small allocations of diesels which are proportionately more expensive to provide. However I very much doubt that the case will ever be made for the likes of the Wick and Kyle lines, and we need to remember also that engineering work relies on having a fleet of diesels that can access routes while the power is off. So if we eliminate diesels there will still have to be some "self-powered" trains whether battery, fuel cell or something else entirely.

Well, if that giant transhipment port opens at Scapa Flow and a tunnel is built under the Pentway Firth, that would put rather more traffic than now onto the Far North Line.

But once those are the only lines left you could certainly see the political advantage in pledging to go "All Electric".
Whilst the traffic is low the cost of the project would also be very low due to the low draw of the trains on the route, the lack of overbridges and such things (you could single end feed it all from Inverness quite easily).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So nobody knows the answer to my question - can the dimensions (not the length) of a 'captive' design coach run on the Crewe to Liverpool line - in other words, is the loading gauge wide and tall enough? Is there a diagram anywhere that displays the parameters?
Any help appreciated.

The map in the LNW Route Plan for CP5 (draft) shows Crewe-Liverpool as a W10 gauge route, like the main WCML.
I don't know if that answers your question...
There are 8 intermediate stations which you would expect to be foul of HS2 gauge.
Some of them would be quite difficult to bypass (Winsford, Hartford, Runcorn particularly).

 

[Geezertronic]

Has anyone heard of any protests down at Parliament as promised by StopHS2? I can't see anything on the BBC News website apart from that the HS2 Bill going before parliament (and it is down in the Business section not on the front pages as I would have expected)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Has anyone heard of any protests down at Parliament as promised by StopHS2? I can't see anything on the BBC News website apart from that the HS2 Bill going before parliament (and it is down in the Business section not on the front pages as I would have expected)?

About 200 turned up according to Paul Bigland, posting in wnxx...

 

[Snapper]

As expected, the anti Hs2 mobs London demo flopped today. Less than 200 people turned up outside Parliament. What was funny was when I was recognised and Deanne Dukhan from AGAST arranged for them to all boo me! Then some of those nice middle class Chiltern Nimbys resorted to this: http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p378276 ... #h3ab789cc …

 

[oversteer]

A BILL TO

Make provision for a railway between Euston in London and a junction with the West Coast Main Line at Handsacre in Staffordshire, with a spur from Old Oak Common in the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham to a junction with the Channel Tunnel Rail Link at York Way in the London Borough of Islington and a spur from Water Orton in Warwickshire to Curzon Street in Birmingham; and for connected purposes.

Bill here http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2013-2014/0132/cbill_2013-20140132_en_1.htm

HS2 documentation here http://www.hs2.org.uk/hs2-phase-one-hybrid-bill/hybrid-bill

Environmental statement here https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/hs2-phase-one-environmental-statement-documents

Happy reading!

 

[HowardGWR]

Interesting to back up our recent discussion is this image from

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/up...as-the-bill-for-the-rail-route-is-published/?

See second photo down on this page. It backs up my point about the photo the antis posted.

 

[Geezertronic]

As expected, the anti Hs2 mobs London demo flopped today. Less than 200 people turned up outside Parliament. What was funny was when I was recognised and Deanne Dukhan from AGAST arranged for them to all boo me! Then some of those nice middle class Chiltern Nimbys resorted to this: http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p378276 ... #h3ab789cc …

URL cannot be found? But I looked it up on your site and I'm not surprised really... there's little difference between them and football hooligans really is there

 

[Deerfold]

URL cannot be found? But I looked it up on your site and I'm not surprised really... there's little difference between them and football hooligans really is there

Obviously they're being very careful about the image they project.

 

[Snapper]

Obviously they're being very careful about the image they project.

Or not. Here's another one..

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p378276415/h2834f587#h2834f587

 

[IKBrunel]

Does anyone know if rights of way are mentioned in the preparation or hybrid bills, or if they're just covered by detail in the drawings?

 

[exdeus]

The CFA reports detail which footpaths (PROW as they called it) will be closed or amended in the Traffic and Transport section:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-phase-one-environmental-statement-volume-2-community-forum-area-reports-and-map-books/hs2-phase-one-environmental-statement-volume-2-community-forum-area-reports-and-map-books

Also in the separate Environment Reports here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-phase-one-environmental-statement-volume-5-traffic-and-transport/hs2-phase-one-environmental-statement-volume-5-traffic-and-transport

Both need reference to the map books though.

 

[GingerSte]

Or not. Here's another one..

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p378276415/h2834f587#h2834f587

The guy on the left is just trying to make it clear it's HS2 he's against.

 

[jon0844]

Well, I'd like to show him my thoughts on HS1!

 

[IKBrunel]

according to railwayeye the two fingers represents a preference for the Y route

 

[NotATrainspott]

If anyone is interested in the architecture of all the new stations then they are all detailed in the Environmental Statement section for where that station will be. All seem to be reasonably standard new Network Rail/HS1 glass and steel design fare but Euston and Curzon Street are definitely dissimilar to anything else I've seen.

It also seems that the Phase 1 works will include the creation of junctions for Phase 2 and two track maintenance loops for stabling engineering trains and for holding any malfunctioning HS2 trains. There's a huge amount of information in those 50,000 pages but a lot of it is simply mixed in with lots of other mandatory environmental guff about how there would be some more lorries on the local roads etc.

 

[Snapper]

People might be interested in these pictures of Hs2 track maps (showing speeds):

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p808430623/h78f29737#h78f29737

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p808430623/h78f29737#h72b75aaf

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p808430623/h78f29737#h7f4a5f60

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p808430623/h78f29737#h78d0d5d1

 

[IKBrunel]

Looking at the predicted service patterns.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...on_of_the_service_patterns__January_2013_.pdf
I have concerns about the number of terminal stations on HS2 (Euston, Curzon St, Picadilly, Leeds) and the limitations this places on through services.
At a time when DB are spending quite a bit of money to make their stations through running (new Berlin Hbf, remodelling Stuttgart Hbf) it looks a bit shortsighted.

I know that in each case the cost of tunneling HS lines through cities would be high. But I wonder if at the very least for some of these stations, there shouldn't be passive provision to extend lines beyond termini at a later date. For example by building subterranean platforms with a void beyond the end, used for something which could be moved later on. (shopping/parking/catering depot/etc). This void could then be used to launch TBMs at a later date if need be. But I suppose BCRs and value engineering prevent spending anything significant on future proofing...

Also notable is that possible HS2-Kent/beyond services are omitted.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Looking at the predicted service patterns.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...on_of_the_service_patterns__January_2013_.pdf
I have concerns about the number of terminal stations on HS2 (Euston, Curzon St, Picadilly, Leeds) and the limitations this places on through services.
At a time when DB are spending quite a bit of money to make their stations through running (new Berlin Hbf, remodelling Stuttgart Hbf) it looks a bit shortsighted.

I know that in each case the cost of tunneling HS lines through cities would be high. But I wonder if at the very least for some of these stations, there shouldn't be passive provision to extend lines beyond termini at a later date. For example by building subterranean platforms with a void beyond the end, used for something which could be moved later on. (shopping/parking/catering depot/etc). This void could then be used to launch TBMs at a later date if need be. But I suppose BCRs and value engineering prevent spending anything significant on future proofing...

Also notable is that possible HS2-Kent/beyond services are omitted.

London doesn't seem well situated for through-running InterCity services, especially when we're not likely to join Schengen and so allow trains to the Continent to be used for domestic passengers as well. With that, there isn't really another route that can be matched with the HS2 service plans because Ebbsfleet and Ashford simply aren't big or important enough to justify a through station on their own.

The only two main InterCity lines I ever see being joined up in such a way are the Great Western and East Coast mainlines because in future they are going to be made similar technologically (same signalling, trains, service patterns etc). I imagine this would come as part of a big package of improvements for the London end of these routes including new lines bypassing Welwyn and would join together in an expensive deep-level station not dissimilar but smaller to the Lords' proposal for HS2.

Euston's HS2 platforms will be only one level below ground so any continuation tunnels would have to drop very, very quickly and carefully to avoid the warren of cross-passages and LUL lines that lie in front of Euston. If you were to make Euston HS2 a through station you would be better off simply deep-level tunnelling a new one underneath.

Just a thought, but as Eurotunnel are going to allow doubled-up 200m long trains in the Tunnel, wouldn't it be possible for a 200m train from HS2 to join up with a 200m long train from St Pancras at Stratford - or indeed use the completely unused (?) connection between the NLL and St Pancras and join at St Pancras itself - and then go off to the Continent? That might be a way of making sure the services are full enough to be economical to run.

 

[JohnB57]

London doesn't seem well situated for through-running InterCity services, especially when we're not likely to join Schengen and so allow trains to the Continent to be used for domestic passengers as well.

Security and baggage checks are a far bigger issue than passport controls. Schengen only avoids the need for the latter, as anyone who flies between member countries will testify. So long as baggage checks are required for tunnel transit, every originating station will in theory have to have the usual trammel and associated costs.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Security and baggage checks are a far bigger issue than passport controls. Schengen only avoids the need for the latter, as anyone who flies between member countries will testify. So long as baggage checks are required for tunnel transit, every originating station will in theory have to have the usual trammel and associated costs.

To be perfectly honest I cannot see why security checks should be needed at all. Unless your vehicle is 'suspicious' you're not going to have it checked for explosives or contraband at any ferry port or the Shuttle terminals, even though a car could carry much, much more explosive than anyone could ever take on board a passenger train. The mechanics of a bomb going off on a Class 373 aren't going to change whether it's an international Eurostar service or one of the NoL units subleased to domestic operations in the UK and France. It's unlikely that explosives themselves would cause much physical damage to the Chunnel given its enormous loading gauge (think of how the London bombings didn't collapse the Northern or Picadilly lines) any more than damage from an (ensuing) fire. I know that the Spanish do airport-style security checks at their AVE stations but HS2 is going to be integrated too much into the existing network for that to be sensible or feasible - just imagine having to have metal detectors and X-ray machines for the few tph which will stop at Carstairs! I still think the Eurostar checks are only in place to placate the airlines a bit more.

 

[JohnB57]

I can't really argue for or against the need for baggage checks, it's just the way things are, but equally, I can't imagine that they will ever be withdrawn.

There are also of course spot security checks for vehicles using the shuttle - I've been searched a number of times.

 

[HowardGWR]

To be perfectly honest I cannot see why security checks should be needed at all. Unless your vehicle is 'suspicious' you're not going to have it checked for explosives or contraband at any ferry port or the Shuttle terminals, even though a car could carry much, much more explosive than anyone could ever take on board a passenger train. The mechanics of a bomb going off on a Class 373 aren't going to change whether it's an international Eurostar service or one of the NoL units subleased to domestic operations in the UK and France. It's unlikely that explosives themselves would cause much physical damage to the Chunnel given its enormous loading gauge (think of how the London bombings didn't collapse the Northern or Picadilly lines) any more than damage from an (ensuing) fire. I know that the Spanish do airport-style security checks at their AVE stations but HS2 is going to be integrated too much into the existing network for that to be sensible or feasible - just imagine having to have metal detectors and X-ray machines for the few tph which will stop at Carstairs! I still think the Eurostar checks are only in place to placate the airlines a bit more.

The Spanish checks (if they still do them) are a ridiculous over-reaction to the Madrid Atocha bombings, IMO. The sad thing is that it was a suburban train that was bombed there. As you say, they only check the AVEs.

My information is from a few years ago when we visited so correct me if I am wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't really argue for or against the need for baggage checks, it's just the way things are, but equally, I can't imagine that they will ever be withdrawn.

There are also of course spot security checks for vehicles using the shuttle - I've been searched a number of times.

Why don't they do the same for Eurostar I wonder?

 

[JohnB57]

Why don't they do the same for Eurostar I wonder?

I suppose if you have the facilities to do checks, you may as well do everyone, given the check-in time buffer and the relative ease and speed of scanning personal baggage.

 

[IKBrunel]

ok so Euston is possibly the weakest contender for thru lines, & why we have the HS2-HS1 link for a limited number of services. But what about Curzon St & the inability for classic compatibles to run on to Wolverhampton for example?

 

[HSTEd]

Trying to work out a way to fit a 400m long platform through station in Birmingham runs into almost as many problems as doing so at Euston.

It basically has to be underground.

 

[MarkyT]

Trying to work out a way to fit a 400m long platform through station in Birmingham runs into almost as many problems as doing so at Euston. It basically has to be underground.

Alternatively every half hour, twin classic compatible sets could split at Birmingham Interchange, with one set going forward to Manchester via New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke and Stockport and the other going somewhere else, Perhaps Liverpool, Preston/Blackpool via Warrington and Wigan or the East Midlands and south Yorkshire via Derby if electrified. 2 more full length trains an hour could run non-stop from OOC to terminate at Curzon Street, formed of captive Euro-sized stock. Clearly some additional junction connections would be required as shown here: http://www.townend.me/files/hs2birmingham.pdf

 

[IKBrunel]

Trying to work out a way to fit a 400m long platform through station in Birmingham runs into almost as many problems as doing so at Euston. It basically has to be underground.

like they are currently building in Stuttgart ..some impressive sketches of the vaulted ceilings:
www.engineertraffic.com/2012/09/26/germany-go-big-or-go-home/

But then again MarkyTs suggestions of a HS2/WCML junction east of Curzon St & New St looks like a much cheaper way to connect HS2 & West of Bham.

 

[The Planner]

I was under the impression some sort of connection around Bromford was on the cards anyway.