High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[YorkshireBear]

So nobody knows the answer to my question - can the dimensions (not the length) of a 'captive' design coach run on the Crewe to Liverpool line - in other words, is the loading gauge wide and tall enough? Is there a diagram anywhere that displays the parameters?
Any help appreciated.

Classic Compatible stock will fit the UK loading gauge. Captive stock will not fit at all!

Sorry HowardGWR

 

[HowardGWR]

Captive stock will fit the UK loading gauge so no there will be no problems.

Thanks YB and so prompt.

So all we are talking about is the lower speed difference between the HS2 either joining north of Manchester and the existing line from Crewe -and I note some of the new line proposals were a touch of the Great Way Round - note my moniker!.

Is it really so that one could not devise a way to get to the old Exchange area (through the Waterloo and Victoria tunnel perhaps?). There seems plenty of space down there.

 

[alwaystouchout]

Has there been much from the DfT/HS2 Ltd re franchising arrangements?

I imagine the network will be tendered as the 'high speed' franchise rather than integrating NW services with WCML franchise and Yorkshire/NE services with the EC franchise.

 

[HSTEd]

Captive stock certainly will not fit onto the classic network

You will lose the ceiling in the first tunnel and the bottom sides at the first platform.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Got my words mixed up let me go back and amend.... Sorry all. HowardGWR note m amendment.

 

[Spaceflower]

Haha, those bluebells will no doubt survive having trains flying through with zero emissions* (bar perhaps a bit of carbon from the pantographs or the odd bit of brake dust) anyway!

* along the line, not counting electricity production - for anyone that didn't understand what I meant

The construction of a line through woodland leads to fragmentation and an increased amount of 'edge' habitat. As a result the ecosystem changes significantly as this 'new' habitat favours other competitive species. it also fragments populations, making them less resilient in the face of natural local extinctions.

The multitude of linear features (roads, railways, etc) criss-crossing our landscape is a major factor in species decline and extinction.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The construction of a line through woodland leads to fragmentation and an increased amount of 'edge' habitat. As a result the ecosystem changes significantly as this 'new' habitat favours other competitive species. it also fragments populations, making them less resilient in the face of natural local extinctions.

The multitude of linear features (roads, railways, etc) criss-crossing our landscape is a major factor in species decline and extinction.

Hence why all parts of the route will include these.

http://www.hs2.org.uk/about-hs2/facts-figures/environmental-effects

They are green tunnels, these have been shown to be very effective in various parts of the country with wildlife quickly choosing to use the route that involves not crossing the road. Sorry my laptop will not allow me to put the picture in this as i am having troubles with it at the moment.

MODs if you can extract image and add to this post feel free.

 

[Spaceflower]

Hence why all parts of the route will include these.

http://www.hs2.org.uk/about-hs2/facts-figures/environmental-effects

They are green tunnels, these have been shown to be very effective in various parts of the country with wildlife quickly choosing to use the route that involves not crossing the road. Sorry my laptop will not allow me to put the picture in this as i am having troubles with it at the moment.

MODs if you can extract image and add to this post feel free.

Which ramps up the cost significantly. These need to be implemented in areas where they will have the most impact. Not an easy job. Also, the picture you provided seems to be a bad example of the point of a green tunnel as it runs parallel with a motorway. Surely this is a prime example of a tunnel that is not going to have much impact?

 

[HSTEd]

It will still have impact in terms of reduced mortality for things crossing it.


And cost? Thanks to the NIMBYs the project already costs twice what the economically optimum solution would.

There would be no chiltern tunnels at all.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Which ramps up the cost significantly. These need to be implemented in areas where they will have the most impact. Not an easy job. Also, the picture you provided seems to be a bad example of the point of a green tunnel as it runs parallel with a motorway. Surely this is a prime example of a tunnel that is not going to have much impact?

It was the best picture i could find to show what i meant, i was not stating this is a good example. Yes it does ramp up the cost significantly, but to maintain all the things you said it is worth it in my eyes, just short sections. It can be built as cut and cover which generally is cheaper and easier.

 

[Spaceflower]

It was the best picture i could find to show what i meant, i was not stating this is a good example. Yes it does ramp up the cost significantly, but to maintain all the things you said it is worth it in my eyes, just short sections. It can be built as cut and cover which generally is cheaper and easier.

Yeah, I guessed

 

[HowardGWR]

Got my words mixed up let me go back and amend.... Sorry all. HowardGWR note m amendment.

That's OK, you see how trusting I am! Just out of interest, I wonder if the 'captive' stock would be OK on Brunel's original Mainline? I expect it would have and no probs.

 

[YorkshireBear]

That's OK, you see how trusting I am! Just out of interest, I wonder if the 'captive' stock would be OK on Brunel's original Mainline? I expect it would have and no probs.

I doubt it, the height is one of the problems and although Brunel's was wider it was not that much higher AFAIK.

 

[HowardGWR]

I doubt it, the height is one of the problems and although Brunel's was wider it was not that much higher AFAIK.

Well I have modelled one of his Bath to Bristol tunnel entrances and that is 30 feet high at the apex! Box tunnel is the same. Is that tall enough for you? !!!

 

[Spaceflower]

It will still have impact in terms of reduced mortality for things crossing it.


And cost? Thanks to the NIMBYs the project already costs twice what the economically optimum solution would.

There would be no chiltern tunnels at all.

There is no economically optimal solution to a high speed railway. All costs must be considered, environmental included.

 

[edwin_m]

Well I have modelled one of his Bath to Bristol tunnel entrances and that is 30 feet high at the apex! Box tunnel is the same. Is that tall enough for you? !!!

If I recall, Brunel made the Box tunnel portals really big so as not scare the early passengers, but the top gets much lower in between.

Running at HS2 speeds needs a wider track spacing, not so much for loading gauge but to reduce aerodynamic effects. This may be OK for some former broad gauge routes but on most classic routes it would mean a total rebuild.

 

[rm88]

I am all for HS2, as long as every single line in the UK is electrified aswell.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am all for HS2, as long as every single line in the UK is electrified aswell.

I think ultimately that is what will happen just not before HS2 is finished.

 

[IKBrunel]

Mmm. I agree that environmental costs of things ought to be more of a consideration than it sometimes is. but agreeing the cost of habitat loss or of the impact of atmospheric hydrocarbons, S02, C02, dioxins,flourans, etc is always going to be problematic? especially for things like visual impact which are inherently qualitative?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am all for HS2, as long as every single line in the UK is electrified aswell.

how much are you prepared to pay for tickets so that every line can be electrified, including some that only see a couple of trains per day?

For sure there are a lot more lines that should be electrified, but at some point we start to reach the law of diminishing returns, where money might be better spent on other things like new stations, line reopenings, redoublings, etc.

 

[JGR]

how much are you prepared to pay for tickets so that every line can be electrified, including some that only see a couple of trains per day?

For sure there are a lot more lines that should be electrified, but at some point we start to reach the law of diminishing returns, where money might be better spent on other things like new stations, line reopenings, redoublings, etc.

Even when we've reached at a point at which the return for electrifying the remaining lines has significantly decreased, there'll (probably) still be equipment such as HOOP trains and the like that can't realistically be re-allocated to other endeavours. Even a quite marginal return might be justifiable if the equipment/staff/etc. would otherwise be idle.
Given enough time, I would personally not be surprised to eventually see Swiss-levels of electrification in the UK.

 

[HSTEd]

Maintaining a token diesel fleet costs money, and the political benefits from electrification are huge.
If a rolling programme is such a boon as people around here say it is (often to justify not accelerating the programme) then there is no reason not to continue until the job is done on both NR and NIR metals.

Also, there are only a handful of lines with only 'a couple of trains per day' and if it wasn't for stock limitations and suchlike there would be a case for many more trains on most of them.

Additionally the elimination of traditional signal boxes in favour of integrated signalling centres will enable lines that currently cannot justify staffing the boxes to remain open since the marginal staff costs are drastically lower.

There is no economically optimal solution to a high speed railway. All costs must be considered, environmental included.

Environmental costs are not the same as physical costs for the reasons discussed here.
We have to make a 'value judgement' and it is possible to generate defensible figures that dissagree by an order of magnitude or more.

There is no technical reason why you could not traverse the Chilterns on a modern high speed line without a single tunnel thanks to the very low cost of earthworks with modern earthmoving technology and the fact that HSR trainsets have been demonstrated in service on 4% gradients (in Germany).

Therefore the cost of all tunnels in the Chiltern area must be ascribed to the NIMBYs/environmental costs.

 

[HowardGWR]

Even when we've reached at a point at which the return for electrifying the remaining lines has significantly decreased, there'll (probably) still be equipment such as HOOP trains and the like that can't realistically be re-allocated to other endeavours. Even a quite marginal return might be justifiable if the equipment/staff/etc. would otherwise be idle.
Given enough time, I would personally not be surprised to eventually see Swiss-levels of electrification in the UK.

I didn't think, on present plans, that there will be an awful lot of main lines (if any) unelectrified by the time HS2 gets built in 2026?

As OPs have said, there are more important improvements that need making, mainly in the area of quality rail / road / air / water interchanges IMO.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, by the time HS2 opens there will surely be loads of electrification work completed elsewhere, and along with new rolling stock being introduced (it's fair to say that we'll have more stock ordered between now and then for other parts of the UK) there will be a lot of current EMUs cascaded to these areas.

And, as such, the really old DMUs can disappear - and the more modern DMUs will be able to move to the remaining lines where adding wires isn't really practical.

So, I think it will work out pretty well.

Let's also consider that in the next 20 years, we might be looking at hybrid trains or even the idea of having battery powered trains, with charging points along the way/at stations/sidings etc.

 

[alwaystouchout]

I think ultimately that is what will happen just not before HS2 is finished.

Surely there'll be some lines where patronage is so low that even re/doubling the track isn't justified, let alone electrification?

Interesting question though - are there any single stretches of track that are electrified?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Surely there'll be some lines where patronage is so low that even re/doubling the track isn't justified, let alone electrification?

Interesting question though - are there any single stretches of track that are electrified?

St Albans Branch. Some parts of the Ilkley/Shipley triangle in west Yorkshire. I think part of the route to Kings Lynn for some reason? Some of the suburban lines around Glasgow have single track sections? The Redditch branch for the next year or so.

I think.


Anyway! Oh no doubt it will take a long time. But i should have made myself clear i think part of this will be battery and bi mode trains. Leaving no pure diesel routes.

 

[pablo]

Southminster branch.

 

[TheGrew]

The line between Botley and Fareham is largely single as well. Isn't the Windermere branch largely single track to and that is going to be electrified. Come to think of it isn't Alsager to Crewe also single?

I can see most lines being electrified bar some of the more remote lines (unless it makes sense for through traffic). I think it will be a case that the BCR for certain lines improves as other bits of network are electrified (in part to be rid of diesels running under the wires).

 

[gordonthemoron]

Wirral Loop line in Liverpool is single track 3rd rail

 

[edwin_m]

The last part of the Alsager route into Crewe is indeed single line. Not yet mentioned are Upminster to Grays and the link from Stratford towards Fenchurch Street.

The case for electrification does indeed improve as other nearby routes are electrified, because of effects such as reduced running under the wires and eliminating small allocations of diesels which are proportionately more expensive to provide. However I very much doubt that the case will ever be made for the likes of the Wick and Kyle lines, and we need to remember also that engineering work relies on having a fleet of diesels that can access routes while the power is off. So if we eliminate diesels there will still have to be some "self-powered" trains whether battery, fuel cell or something else entirely.

 

[The Ham]

Franham to Alton is mostly single track and electrified.