High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[IKBrunel]

So it's a relatively short viaduct, ~100m from a 400KV National Grid pylon route, ~700m from the A413, ~1500m from the Chiltern Line.
Not exactly pristine countryside.

At its 'highest' point it's 20m above ground level, converging with ground level towards the ends. I think most of it could be screened by trees, so it would blend in with the area, which consists of intermittent woodland.

 

[tbtc]

So it's a relatively short viaduct, ~100m from a 400KV National Grid pylon route

Surely they'd never allow anything as ugly as a pylon route through their precious AONB?

(seriously though, I think that this viaduct looks good, quite interesting to see a "low" viaduct, rather than an embankment)

 

[HowardGWR]

The one thing the Chiltern NIMBYs never mention is the make-up of their 'sacred' AONB. Only 5% of the Chilterns is virgin landscape untouched by man. Their AONB is 95% man-made....

All AsONB and NPs are man made. The title is a misnomer but it does not alter the fact that they are protected from 'damaging' development in planning policy, note not from development itself.

So you have to judge whether the development is 'damaging'. Don't forget noise comes into it too, because it may be held that the Wendover area in the picture enjoys tranquillity.
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Surely they'd never allow anything as ugly as a pylon route through their precious AONB?

(seriously though, I think that this viaduct looks good, quite interesting to see a "low" viaduct, rather than an embankment)

No, the pylons were allowed when the degree of protection did not exist. The principle is that 'two wrongs don't make a right'. The planning system always looks forwards not backwards.

Now the pylons are mentioned, I noticed that fact a long time ago when the plans were published.

If you have a look at the photo again, you will see that the objectors have taken care to dim the background out, otherwise they would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Look at the area with Google Earth and Street View and all will become clear.

Ooh, I forgot to thank the poster who managed to embed the photo, many thanks Ironside.

 

[Ironside]

All AsONB and NPs are man made. The title is a misnomer but it does not alter the fact that they are protected from 'damaging' development in planning policy, note not from development itself.

So you have to judge whether the development is 'damaging'. Don't forget noise comes into it too, because it may be held that the Wendover area in the picture enjoys tranquillity.
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No, the pylons were allowed when the degree of protection did not exist. The principle is that 'two wrongs don't make a right'. The planning system always looks forwards not backwards.

Now the pylons are mentioned, I noticed that fact a long time ago when the plans were published.

If you have a look at the photo again, you will see that the objectors have taken care to dim the background out, otherwise they would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Look at the area with Google Earth and Street View and all will become clear.

Ooh, I forgot to thank the poster who managed to embed the photo, many thanks Ironside.

Actually that wasn't me it was 43074.

 

[HowardGWR]

Actually that wasn't me it was 43078.

Oh dear, it was quoted in your post and led to my mistake; anyway thanks to 43078.

 

[nick.c]

So it's a relatively short viaduct, ~100m from a 400KV National Grid pylon route, ~700m from the A413, ~1500m from the Chiltern Line.
Not exactly pristine countryside.

At its 'highest' point it's 20m above ground level, converging with ground level towards the ends. I think most of it could be screened by trees, so it would blend in with the area, which consists of intermittent woodland.

With all respects to the Chiltern AONB (and its residents), I've explored the area where the line is planned to run and to be honest the scenery is "pretty" in a rather unassuming manner on a par with many other parts of the country - describing it as "beautiful" is, in my view, seriously over-egging it. Sure, parts of the Chilterns are beautiful - but not the part the line will run through.

Incidentally, on one of our "field trips" we dropped into a local pub for lunch. Two locals were dressed in riding breeches, bit like a scene from the 50's - I'd imagine. However it gives a bit of an insight into the likely local mindset.

 

[bnm]

Incidentally, on one of our "field trips" we dropped into a local pub for lunch. Two locals were dressed in riding breeches, bit like a scene from the 50's - I'd imagine. However it gives a bit of an insight into the likely local mindset.

Because all riding breeches wearers have the same mindset? Rather a sweeping statement.

The only way to find someone's mindset on a particular topic is to ask them. To assume someone's point of view from their dress is stereotyping of the worst kind.

 

[The Ham]

Now the pylons are mentioned, I noticed that fact a long time ago when the plans were published.

If you have a look at the photo again, you will see that the objectors have taken care to dim the background out, otherwise they would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Look at the area with Google Earth and Street View and all will become clear.

The picture has a number of trees close to the line of the viaduct missing as well, which may or may not need to be removed, however in doing so it makes the viaduct more obvious that it perhaps will be.

Also there appears to a train on it as well, which although will be the case you'd be fairly unlucky (or lucky depending on your perspective) to see a train on it as it would pass across it in a matter of seconds before there was a noticeable gap before the next train in either direction then passed over it.

It could be possible that the cables currently on the pylons are incorporated into the viaduct, thus providing some benefit to the local views.

 

[jon0844]

I think that viaduct looks really nice.

It's odd that nobody would be happy to see the Welwyn viaduct torn down, and I believe it's listed.

In 50-100 years, that viaduct would likely be a part of the landscape and people would never imagine a time when it wasn't there, or want it to go. No doubt, it too, would one day become listed!

 

[Gathursty]

I was at the Leigh HS2 consultation at the Sports Village this afternoon. The Rt Hon. Andy Burnham MP was there too. I'd rather it not go ahead and spend the money on the existing network but I'm less strongly opposed after having attended today.

 

[Philip Elliott]

I think that viaduct looks really nice.

It's odd that nobody would be happy to see the Welwyn viaduct torn down, and I believe it's listed.

In 50-100 years, that viaduct would likely be a part of the landscape and people would never imagine a time when it wasn't there, or want it to go. No doubt, it too, would one day become listed!

People said that about the 1960s/70s carbuncles when they were built, now look at public opinion. It'll never match the magnificence of the victorian viaducts -

 

[HowardGWR]

I was at the Leigh HS2 consultation at the Sports Village this afternoon. The Rt Hon. Andy Burnham MP was there too. I'd rather it not go ahead and spend the money on the existing network but I'm less strongly opposed after having attended today.

The money will not be spent on the existing network (instead) and there is lots of money to be spent on the existing network anyway. I am astonished you don't know that, as a member of this site, to be honest. What were your other reasons for opposition to HS2? Do you mind telling us as that would be interesting, thanks.
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People said that about the 1960s/70s carbuncles when they were built, now look at public opinion. It'll never match the magnificence of the victorian viaducts -

Believe you me, people are still saying what they say about those appalling 60s /70s brutalist structures. Fortunately, most are being demolished.

 

[Spaceflower]

The money will not be spent on the existing network (instead) and there is lots of money to be spent on the existing network anyway. I am astonished you don't know that, as a member of this site, to be honest. What were your other reasons for opposition to HS2? Do you mind telling us as that would be interesting, thanks.
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Believe you me, people are still saying what they say about those appalling 60s /70s brutalist structures. Fortunately, most are being demolished.

...until few remain. Then, in another 50 years, people will be keen to protect the remaining important aspects of our heritage and rightly so imo.
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What I grossly detest is the contemporary glass and steel construction designs.

I mean come on.......surely these are alot better in abstract than in reality.

 

[moggie]

Maybe the residents of bucks should persuade their local MP's to campaign for a natural brick cladding of the concrete structure from all the clay dug out from various cuttings and tunnels elsewhere on the route? Would sure be an improvement on the industrial landscape surrounding it - i.e. the agricultural industry. I would image that with a few nooks and crannies built into the structure for the bird life there will be more along the railway than in those fields.

 

[pablo]

BTW, in the business they're called towers, not pylons.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe the residents of bucks should persuade their local MP's to campaign for a natural brick cladding of the concrete structure from all the clay dug out from various cuttings and tunnels elsewhere on the route? Would sure be an improvement on the industrial landscape surrounding it - i.e. the agricultural industry. I would image that with a few nooks and crannies built into the structure for the bird life there will be more along the railway than in those fields.

I doubt they'd be bothered as most just want to be given more compensation for their perceived drop in property values throughout the construction.

If they got that, I bet half of them wouldn't care what happened to the countryside.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think the Leigh HS2 station being promoted by the local campaign group Transport For Leigh is crazy. Feasability study found against opening a Leigh Chat Moss line station (just as far as existing station, would abstract from Atherton line reducing its revenue, would eat a path on the Chat Moss line, wouldnt generate enough 'new' rather than abstracted passengers to be worthwhile). And so they go away and come back with the even crazier idea that perhaps a Chat Moss Line station would be worthwhile if they had HS2 services calling there to interchange with, meanwhile sidestepping totally any justification for Leigh having a HS2 station!


And thats even sidestepping their bat **** crazy catchment map!

For some reason they dont think people in Warrington, Liverpool, Wigan would use their own local stations to get trains to London/Manchester

 

[jon0844]

My suggestion of a spur off to Hatfield, through Hemel, St Albans and over to the business park (so the station would be close to me without being too close - gotta think of my house value) seems to have gone nowhere...

 

[orpine]

[justified rant about Leigh]

Haha, that's funny. I've seen quite a lot of HS2 "mitigation" proposals from local groups. One of them wanted a £56million tunnel, effectively just to save a little piece of local woodland which had bluebells or something in it. Absurdly amount of NIMBYism. Yet we have the M40 in our back yard, a far bigger blight.

 

[jon0844]

Haha, those bluebells will no doubt survive having trains flying through with zero emissions* (bar perhaps a bit of carbon from the pantographs or the odd bit of brake dust) anyway!

* along the line, not counting electricity production - for anyone that didn't understand what I meant

 

[Snapper]

I doubt they'd be bothered as most just want to be given more compensation for their perceived drop in property values throughout the construction.

If they got that, I bet half of them wouldn't care what happened to the countryside.

Quite. The 'green' argument spouted by many of the antis is nothing more than an excuse. One Chiltern NIMBY on Twitter keeps banging on about the environment and encourages people to vote UKIP to oppose Hs2. The fact that UKIP are climate change deniers & would do far more damage to the environment than Hs2 ever will is completely ignored.

 

[IKBrunel]

It could be possible that the cables currently on the pylons are incorporated into the viaduct, thus providing some benefit to the local views.

Hmm, I've never heard of that being done with 400kV cables. Would need to be well protected from any railway engineering works and have adequate cooling. Electromagnetic interference from 400kV to signalling might also be an issue.

Operators are a lot more sniffy about 400kV overhead lines (OHLs) than with 11 or 33kV, due to the strategic nature of the 400kV network. I think where possible National grid would rather have the 400kV line away from the railway where they have a separate wayleave & unconditional 24x365 access to pylons.

As a statutory project, HS2 can apply to National Grid to have pylons moved to a different alignment, if any part of the railway structure would be too close to the OHLs, allowing for 'sag & sway'. But this would be similar construction, just shifted to one side.

 

[pablo]

Any such cabling is done reluctantly, goes underground and costs about x6 the overhead option.
Towers; not pylons!

 

[HowardGWR]

I got this from the Liverpool Echo

at http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-high-speed-trains-too-long-6334191?

This means rail bosses would potentially have to consider making Lime Street’s platforms longer, creating a smaller HS2 train for Liverpool routes or asking passengers in rear carriages to walk to the front of the train to get out once it arrives in Lime Street.

Is the trajectory between Crewe and Lime St otherwise capacious enough for captive stock then?

 

[IKBrunel]

Any such cabling is done reluctantly, goes underground and costs about x6 the overhead option.
Towers; not pylons!

ok, but even National Grid call them pylons
www.nationalgridt-talk.com/?p=180
(photos & description of new T pylon)

 

[YorkshireBear]

I got this from the Liverpool Echo

at http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-high-speed-trains-too-long-6334191?



Is the trajectory between Crewe and Lime St otherwise capacious enough for captive stock then?

Thought captive stock as 200m? not as long as a pendilino... ?

 

[HSTEd]

Basically Liverpool is upset because it doesn't get a captive spur on day one and is whining because Manchester does.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Basically Liverpool is upset because it doesn't get a captive spur on day one and is whining because Manchester does.

They are lucky they are getting such good provision they need to pipe down.

 

[HSTEd]

They are lucky they are getting such good provision they need to pipe down.

I am beginning to think they want the project killed off so that Manchester doesn't get anything.

 

[HowardGWR]

I am beginning to think they want the project killed off so that Manchester doesn't get anything.

So nobody knows the answer to my question - can the dimensions (not the length) of a 'captive' design coach run on the Crewe to Liverpool line - in other words, is the loading gauge wide and tall enough? Is there a diagram anywhere that displays the parameters?
Any help appreciated.