High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Grumpy]

Why are the jobs in the South?
Take HS2. it's being sold as a National project with a new line running from London to Leeds/Manchester. So where is all the planning resource based?
Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham?

.

Seems like someone else has cottoned on to some of the lies about HS2 helping with the North/South divide.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/hs2-firm-employs-550-london-6297636

 

[YorkshireBear]

Seems like someone else has cottoned on to some of the lies about HS2 helping with the North/South divide.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/hs2-firm-employs-550-london-6297636

That is only HS2 itself, i believe a lot of the work done by Arup and Atkins was done in Manchester-Leeds-York offices.

HS2 is a government based department so i am not surprised.

 

[tbtc]

A new Government-run company formed to build the proposed high speed rail line is employing just SEVEN people in Birmingham and 550 in London.

Ministers have revealed the jobs divide, which was condemned as “absolutely disgraceful” by Perry Barr MP Khalid Mahmood

...

Transport Minister Robert Goodwill admitted almost all the staff were in London, saying: “As of 31 October 2013, HS2 Ltd employed 557 people, of whom 550 were based in London and seven in Birmingham.”

...

Mr Mahmood said the failure to create jobs in the Midlands would encourage opponents of the controversial scheme.

He said: “The high speed line is supposed to be about rejuvenating the economies of the north and Birmingham. This is not the way to do it - employing seven people out of 557

That's a pretty desperate reason to criticise it - the bulk of the Government work will obviously be where the DfT has staff/ offices etc. "Absolute disgrace"? Or publicity seeking MP desperate for attention to further his cause?

Would HS2 suddenly please everyone if the civil servants planning it were based in Birmingham? Doubt it.

And, as Yorkshirebear says, this is only a fraction of the total people who have currently worked on the project.

 

[AndyLandy]

Yes, thank you for applying for the post of HS2 developer. Your CV was excellent and you interviewed very well. In fact, I'd say you were the best candidate for the job. Unfortunately, as you live in London, we're not able to offer you this post. Perhaps if you'd consider moving to Birmingham and re-applying, you might have better luck!

 

[work-traveller]

That's a pretty desperate reason to criticise it - the bulk of the Government work will obviously be where the DfT has staff/ offices etc. "Absolute disgrace"? Or publicity seeking MP desperate for attention to further his cause?

Would HS2 suddenly please everyone if the civil servants planning it were based in Birmingham? Doubt it.

And, as Yorkshirebear says, this is only a fraction of the total people who have currently worked on the project.

In fairness to Mr Mahmood, he's no different to other back bench MPs who'll say (almost) anything to get some column inches.

 

[YorkshireBear]

In fairness to Mr Mahmood, he's no different to other back bench MPs who'll say (almost) anything to get some column inches.

Didn't know all politicians were lacking those important inches, although it makes sense.... Like they are trying to make up for something.

 

[Geezertronic]

Seems like someone else has cottoned on to some of the lies about HS2 helping with the North/South divide.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/hs2-firm-employs-550-london-6297636

Living in Birmingham, I would love Birmingham to provide the required expertise but just because Birmingham is on the route, that certainly doesn't mean that Birmingham has the right to provide many (if any) of the required personnel.

Would be nice, but like others have said it is just another backbencher wanting column inches without any understanding of how major infrastructure projects are sourced. I can't believe you fell for it to be honest...

 

[GingerSte]

Seems like someone else has cottoned on to some of the lies about HS2 helping with the North/South divide.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/hs2-firm-employs-550-london-6297636

The then chairman of HS2, Doug Oakervee, gave a talk to the West Midlands branch of the Institution of Civil Engineers earlier this year. He said that HS2 Ltd was based down in London for the moment, while the parliamentary process was in motion. Once the hybrid bill is approved, the plan was to move to Birmingham.

Whether this was just placating the Birmingham crowd or not, I don't know. Whether it is still the plan, I don't know. I can believe, however, that to do the necessary work with the government, you would need to base yourself in London.

 

[Ironside]

The then chairman of HS2, Doug Oakervee, gave a talk to the West Midlands branch of the Institution of Civil Engineers earlier this year. He said that HS2 Ltd was based down in London for the moment, while the parliamentary process was in motion. Once the hybrid bill is approved, the plan was to move to Birmingham.

Whether this was just placating the Birmingham crowd or not, I don't know. Whether it is still the plan, I don't know. I can believe, however, that to do the necessary work with the government, you would need to base yourself in London.

Unless you had some form of rapid transport to get back and forward between Birmingham and London ....

 

[edwin_m]

Unless you had some form of rapid transport to get back and forward between Birmingham and London ....

Or do as Network Rail did, split the difference and end up in... Milton Keynes!

 

[Chris125]

Of these HS2 Ltd, supported by all main political parties, and totally dismissed the speed point as non negotiable. If as is now claimed this is about capacity, more is gained by slowing the route down and serving more locations, than running at such high speeds.

As someone whose followed the development of HS2 from the beginning, it has always been about capacity - indeed the word is used nearly 200 times in the 2010 command paper. However much of the media attention has focused on journey times because it's a much simpler concept to communicate to the wider public; the same thing often happens with electrification schemes despite the impact being relatively minor compared to the other benefits.

Chris

 

[RichmondCommu]

As someone whose followed the development of HS2 from the beginning, it has always been about capacity - indeed the word is used nearly 200 times in the 2010 command paper. However much of the media attention has focused on journey times because it's a much simpler concept to communicate to the wider public; the same thing often happens with electrification schemes despite the impact being relatively minor compared to the other benefits.

Chris

If it was simpy about capacity we wouldn't be planning to run trains at 186 mph plus. Speed also helps to justify the £50bn cost.

 

[jon0844]

Seems like someone else has cottoned on to some of the lies about HS2 helping with the North/South divide.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/hs2-firm-employs-550-london-6297636

The 550 people in London might of course not originally come from London. In fact, I'd assume a great deal of them didn't.

Maybe some commute from outside too? Maybe even Birmingham!

 

[HSTEd]

If it was simpy about capacity we wouldn't be planning to run trains at 186 mph plus. Speed also helps to justify the £50bn cost.

Why not?

The capacity of the line is not significantly decreased by running fast.

Meanwhile running fast reduces the number of trainsets required significantly.

And what £50bn cost?
Its not really fair to include the cost of the rolling stock unless you plan to have the Pendolinos continue to serve a long time after 2033, which would make them even older tha the HSTs will be when they finally head to the scrapline.

An 11-car Pendolino with ~595 seats costs something approaching £28m at current quoted prices for such vehicles.
A TGV Duplex that has 545 seats costs something like €20m.

 

[samxool]

And what £50bn cost?
Its not really fair to include the cost of the rolling stock unless you plan to have the Pendolinos continue to serve a long time after 2033, which would make them even older tha the HSTs will be when they finally head to the scrapline.

This is laughable argument. I'm constantly coming up against pro hs2 people who try and argue that the real cost is only £42bn, as its not fair to lump in the cost of the trains to hs2.
What a ludicrous statement. So a train line with no trains eh? That'll make it an even bigger White elephant.
The £80bn would be far better spent on the Nhs, giving Britain a first world broadband network, upgrading our eexisting road and rail infrastructure, instead of plowing it all into one train line that by the time it opens, the average man in the street won't afford.
This only has cross party support because mps themselves, or their mate's or close relatives will be getting stinking rich from 'consultancy' fees on this project.


The countryside is the greatest gift we will take away from our children if we continue this relentless battle to concrete it all over.
Things like hs2 make me very sad.

 

[The Ham]

An 11-car Pendolino with ~595 seats costs something approaching £28m at current quoted prices for such vehicles.
A TGV Duplex that has 545 seats costs something like €20m.

...or £47,060 per seat for the Pendolino or £30,825 for the TGV Duplex.

 

[Moonshot]

If it was simpy about capacity we wouldn't be planning to run trains at 186 mph plus. Speed also helps to justify the £50bn cost.

The difference in cost between HS2 designed as a classic line with traditional speeds, and HS2 designed as it is now was marginal - the BCR would actually have been lower as well.

 

[tbtc]

If it was simpy about capacity we wouldn't be planning to run trains at 186 mph plus. Speed also helps to justify the £50bn cost.

People already argue about spending billions of pounds to save twenty minutes between London and Birmingham (as if this was the only point of HS2).

Imagine the criticism if it were only running at the same speeds that a Pendolini is capable of and the saving were only two minutes.

(plus there'd be even less justification for services on HS2 running to Leeds if the route via the West Midlands were only the same top speed that the route via Grantham has)

 

[HSTEd]

This is laughable argument. I'm constantly coming up against pro hs2 people who try and argue that the real cost is only £42bn, as its not fair to lump in the cost of the trains to hs2.
What a ludicrous statement. So a train line with no trains eh? That'll make it an even bigger White elephant.

Whereas bespoke WCML trains cost nothing? You will still have to buy trains to carry all these people.
So the cost of doing nothing is £7.5bn, even if there are no upgrades at all!

The £80bn

Whereas is this £80bn coming from?
Unless you are now including Crossrail 2 and other HS2-supporting rail upgrades and projects that aren't even on the drawing board that were just invented by the 'StopHS2' crowd to push the price up.
In which point I advice you go to London and note the problems caused by the lack of the Chelney route which Crossrail 2 will provide.

would be far better spent on the Nhs

The cost of HS2 is a rounding error on the NHS budget over the same construction period.
Scrapping it and putting all the money into it would make no observable difference to NHS care.

giving Britain a first world broadband network, upgrading our eexisting road and rail infrastructure

You want a five day railway for the next decade on the WCML, ECML and MML?
That is what you are proposing with an upgrade package.
Some of us are... you know... old enough to remember the last major 'upgrade'.
We would have been better off building HS2-1 back then, considering it would have got us far more for the same real terms cost.

And since we are not allowing HS2, I assume that means that no rail reopenings or new road construction projects are to be permitted?
Upgrading the road network without building any new roads is going to be.... fun.

, instead of plowing it all into one train line that by the time it opens, the average man in the street won't afford.

And yet they will magically be able to afford travel on a more expensive to run, more overcrowded railway which is what we will have if we don't get HS2?
That makes no sense.

The countryside is the greatest gift we will take away from our children if we continue this relentless battle to concrete it all over.
Things like hs2 make me very sad.

The greatest gift in this country is the fact we have a functioning infrastructure.
The countryside may look 'nice' (although I think the sun rising over Manchester from the top of the Owen's Park Tower looks incredible) but it does not keep people alive, allow people to obtain goods and services at relatively low cost and promote an actual society.

And you want road upgrade projects but are against something that has comparable land take to adding a lane in each direction to the M40?

 

[IKBrunel]

The countryside is the greatest gift we will take away from our children if we continue this relentless battle to concrete it all over.Things like hs2 make me very sad.

These points have been made in this thread and discussed numerous times before. Perhaps you'd like to read these before trotting out the same old arguments we've all heard many times before.

If I wanted to read these simplistic arguments I can read them in the comments on any HS2 article in the press. Thankfully most of the stuff in this thread is well informed insight into the detail of the project.

Maybe we should split the HS2 thread into something like
HS2 should it be built
HS2 specification & technical discussion

the former would be more about policy & economic issues, the latter more about engineering.

 

[Grumpy]

The then chairman of HS2, Doug Oakervee, gave a talk to the West Midlands branch of the Institution of Civil Engineers earlier this year. He said that HS2 Ltd was based down in London for the moment, while the parliamentary process was in motion. Once the hybrid bill is approved, the plan was to move to Birmingham.

Whether this was just placating the Birmingham crowd or not, I don't know. Whether it is still the plan, I don't know. I can believe, however, that to do the necessary work with the government, you would need to base yourself in London.

GingerSte-thanks for sharing this.
I haven't looked at the HS2 jobs site for a while but I certainly don't recall anything such as "initially based in London but required to relocate to Birmingham (or elsewhere) later. We shall see.

I cant get my head round the assumption made by several on here that the HS2 planners need to be physically close to "the government" in its various forms. I cant think why the vast majority would need any regular face to face contact. I believe they now have telephones outside London and possibly even access to emails and the internet. Royal Mail may even still deliver letters.

By basing the HS2 project in SW1 they have chosen one of the most expensive locations in the UK to employ people. It's nothing to do with choosing the most able people, but London based public servants doing what's in the best interest for them both professionally and personally. They have always fought to keep the well paid jobs in London as so well mocked in "Yes Prime Minister" when it was proposed to move senior jobs out.

 

[gordonthemoron]

There be dragons up there

 

[Deerfold]

This is laughable argument. I'm constantly coming up against pro hs2 people who try and argue that the real cost is only £42bn, as its not fair to lump in the cost of the trains to hs2.
What a ludicrous statement. So a train line with no trains eh? That'll make it an even bigger White elephant.
The £80bn

And I was thinking you were about to embark on a reasonable argument talking about the "real cost".
However there's that ludicrous figure of £80bn. Unless you're suggesting the trains will be £38bn?

Would be far better spent on the Nhs, giving Britain a first world broadband network, upgrading our eexisting road and rail infrastructure, instead of plowing it all into one train line that by the time it opens, the average man in the street won't afford.

Have you access to details about the fare structure on HS2? I'd be very interested in seeing that if you have.

Not sure where the required increase in rail capacity is coming from though.

Incidentally the rest of the network is getting more investment than it has for decades. Probably about the only thing I am impressed with under the current government.

This only has cross party support because mps themselves, or their mate's or close relatives will be getting stinking rich from 'consultancy' fees on this project.

If you've any evidence to suggest that MPs are doing this I'd suggest reporting it to the Palimentary standards committee as that's a very serious allegation.

The countryside is the greatest gift we will take away from our children if we continue this relentless battle to concrete it all over.
Things like hs2 make me very sad.

And yet you have no problems with diverting money from HS2 to roads? Are you expecting to widen any or build new ones?

Things like HS2? Which things?

I notice you're still using that signature despite people having pointed out how offensive they find it.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The countryside is the greatest gift we will take away from our children if we continue this relentless battle to concrete it all over.

Actually HS2 will reduce the requirement to concrete over the countryside in the south east by reducing the need for more roads and houses, simples

 

[tbtc]

I cant get my head round the assumption made by several on here that the HS2 planners need to be physically close to "the government" in its various forms

That's where the DfT currently employ a lot of staff, rightly or wrongly. Presumably a lot of those staff are only going to be working on aspects of the HS2 project for fixed periods of time and would have other tasks in the DfT too?

 

[HowardGWR]

These points have been made in this thread and discussed numerous times before. Perhaps you'd like to read these before trotting out the same old arguments we've all heard many times before.

If I wanted to read these simplistic arguments I can read them in the comments on any HS2 article in the press. Thankfully most of the stuff in this thread is well informed insight into the detail of the project.

Maybe we should split the HS2 thread into something like
HS2 should it be built
HS2 specification & technical discussion

the former would be more about policy & economic issues, the latter more about engineering.

I tried making your latter suggestion previously but the mods didn't go for it. May I suggest the 'HS2 Hybrid Bill' thread could be retitled to 'HS2 yes or no?' and we could then accommodate Liz and others there. After all, the 2014 Spring passing of that bill ends the discussion. Ed Balls has to make his mind up then (I think it's already made up actually).

 

[The Ham]

You want a five day railway for the next decade on the WCML, ECML and MML?
That is what you are proposing with an upgrade package.
Some of us are... you know... old enough to remember the last major 'upgrade'.
We would have been better off building HS2-1 back then, considering it would have got us far more for the same real terms cost.

Given that the last lot of upgrades cost £10bn and the current budget for HS2 phase 1 is about £16bn (but inflation would have increased the former) for not much more than was spent we could have already had the first phase of HS2 built and running.

 

[deltic]

GingerSte-thanks for sharing this.
I haven't looked at the HS2 jobs site for a while but I certainly don't recall anything such as "initially based in London but required to relocate to Birmingham (or elsewhere) later. We shall see.

I cant get my head round the assumption made by several on here that the HS2 planners need to be physically close to "the government" in its various forms. I cant think why the vast majority would need any regular face to face contact. I believe they now have telephones outside London and possibly even access to emails and the internet. Royal Mail may even still deliver letters.

By basing the HS2 project in SW1 they have chosen one of the most expensive locations in the UK to employ people. It's nothing to do with choosing the most able people, but London based public servants doing what's in the best interest for them both professionally and personally. They have always fought to keep the well paid jobs in London as so well mocked in "Yes Prime Minister" when it was proposed to move senior jobs out.

HS2 staff have regular face to face dealing with DfT, Ministers, No 10 as well as other national organisations based in London. It will shortly have a lot of involvement with Parliament. A considerable number of staff have experience of other major rail schemes - like Crossrail and HS1 which were London based and so the expertise is heavily based in London. Many of the consultants working on the project however are not based in London, for example those working on the environmental statement were often based in Birmingham.

 

[Geezertronic]

This is laughable argument. I'm constantly coming up against pro hs2 people who try and argue that the real cost is only £42bn, as its not fair to lump in the cost of the trains to hs2.
What a ludicrous statement. So a train line with no trains eh? That'll make it an even bigger White elephant.
The £80bn would be far better spent on the Nhs, giving Britain a first world broadband network, upgrading our eexisting road and rail infrastructure, instead of plowing it all into one train line that by the time it opens, the average man in the street won't afford.
This only has cross party support because mps themselves, or their mate's or close relatives will be getting stinking rich from 'consultancy' fees on this project.


The countryside is the greatest gift we will take away from our children if we continue this relentless battle to concrete it all over.
Things like hs2 make me very sad.

More emotive nonsense with the usual inaccuracies and lies, just makes you a laughing stock to be honest.... and you've still not answered the criticism of your ridiculous signature

 

[caliwag]

Apologies if this appears elsewhere but is it just me or is there far too much polemic about HS2 in the latest issue of Rail? Just goes on and on! Why don't they run a series of articles about the 'nice to haves', 'must haves' and alternative ways of dealing with London's commuting etc.
...and for the last time the trains are not full!