High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[AndyLandy]

I understand that a journey time of 3 hours is required to capture a significant share of the air market. HS2 delivers Edinburgh/Glasgow to London in 3 hr 38 mins. The Scottish Govt's HSR line would knock 10-15 mins off that. So can another 25 minutes be shaved through upgrading the classic line north of Manchester? Any thoughts on cost of doing this?

I'd expect the long-term fix is to eventually run an HS line all the way from London to Scotland. One would hope that would bring the travel time to well within that time-window.

Upgrades to the northern WCML are always going to fall foul of the curvaceous nature of the route.

 

[Drsatan]

I'd expect the long-term fix is to eventually run an HS line all the way from London to Scotland. One would hope that would bring the travel time to well within that time-window.

Upgrades to the northern WCML are always going to fall foul of the curvaceous nature of the route.

Having said that, if Scotland becomes independent the Scottish Government will probably be expected to fund the construction of any high speed line in Scotland. I can't imagine any HS2 extension terminating at Carlisle somehow!

 

[clc]

I'd expect the long-term fix is to eventually run an HS line all the way from London to Scotland. One would hope that would bring the travel time to well within that time-window.

Upgrades to the northern WCML are always going to fall foul of the curvaceous nature of the route.

Extending the HS line all the way seems unlikely due to the cost. I was wondering if there was a cheaper alternative which would deliver the 3 hour journey time.

 

[HSTEd]

You could deliver a roughly 3hr journey time by running a high speed line from York to Newcastle.

 

[TheGrew]

Would it be easier to upgrade the ecml for 140mph+ running north of York? The ecml has always been traditionally straighter, mind you though you would have to do a lot of quad tracking and potentially tunneling to gain enough paths and iron out some kinks. On second thoughts abandon it :-P

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[HSTEd]

Would it be easier to upgrade the ecml for 140mph+ running north of York? The ecml has always been traditionally straighter, mind you though you would have to do a lot of quad tracking and potentially tunneling to gain enough paths and iron out some kinks. On second thoughts abandon it :-P

I doubt it would be significantly cheaper, especially with all the tunnels needed in and around Durham.
And this way you get gauge clearing for free.

If you approach Newcastle from the south you can probably gauge clear the King Edward V Bridge for a single track of high speed rail, although only having three tracks in the approach might force a reworking of the local services so that they all head south over the High Level Bridge to free an approach line.

Can slew the northernmost platforms over and extend them into the car park where the old suburban platforms used to be to give a through 400m pair of platforms.

58m or so to Edinburgh from Newcastle, and you can potentially manage approximately 1hr40 to Newcastle with a stop at OOC only.
That gives you ~3hr05 to Edinburgh even with no upgrades to the classic line between Edinburgh and Newcastle.

Journey time to Glasgow depends on the exact arrangements for the Central Belt HSR.
But even so, I am sure there are lots of low hanging fruit on the EDB-NCL line in speed terms.

SNCF modified a standard TGV into a tilting prototype due to political pressure in the 1990s, and I believe this reached 320km/h on non-tilt sections and 220km/h on tilt sections.

And was taken no further despite said pressure, which says something about the viability of the project I'm afraid.

Otherwise I would be agitating for all new Inter-city stock to be similarly specced to allow the installation of such equipment.

 

[WatcherZero]

HS2 Ltd have set out the breakdown of £13bn of the £17.16bn contract packages to be tendered for phase 1 at a supplier conference in Birmingham yesterday, including that they expect to tender a £600m framework contract madeup of several 'lots' for enabling works before the end of the year.

Tunnels (£2.9bn): 4 main packages of work
Surface Route (2.7bn): 3 to 6 main packages of work
Stations (2.6bn): 4 main packages (one main per station). Also option of combining the Birmingham stations and splitting Euston into several packages.
Enabling Works (£600m): New framework agreement with several ‘Lots’ for different work types and locations
Railway Systems (1.5bn): 4 to 6 route-wide packages
Design Services (£350m): Multi-disciplinary packages to progress design to a level appropriate to the contracting strategy and provide on-going Employer’s agent duties as required
Rolling Stock, Depots and Signalling (2bn+) Single package, with location of depots to be established by HS2 Ltd.

 

[edwin_m]

There may be some scope to build sections of a few miles of high speed route to bypass the worst bits of the WCML, but keep the old alignment in service (in one direction at least, to avoid two flying junctions) as a sort of dynamic freight loop.

 

[YorkshireBear]

There may be some scope to build sections of a few miles of high speed route to bypass the worst bits of the WCML, but keep the old alignment in service (in one direction at least, to avoid two flying junctions) as a sort of dynamic freight loop.

And Passenger loop for regional services. I think that is the best option personally.

 

[jon0844]

There may be some scope to build sections of a few miles of high speed route to bypass the worst bits of the WCML, but keep the old alignment in service (in one direction at least, to avoid two flying junctions) as a sort of dynamic freight loop.

I think I've got the compromise right here then, which will appease the anti-HS2 campaigners.

We go for the second option to upgrade the WCML instead.

And the upgrade will include some new sections of track, and some new tunnels, and follow a route that's (coincidentally) rather similar to that of the now-axed HS2 route.

But now it's called the WCML high-capacity upgrade project.

 

[Philip Elliott]

The WCML and HS2 are nowhere near each other!

 

[jon0844]

Ssssh!

 

[AndyLandy]

The WCML and HS2 are nowhere near each other!

I'm always reminded of the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy at this point:

"Well if you're resigned to standing around doing nothing all day, you don't actually need me here all the time do you?"

The HS2 corollary is:

"Well if you're resigned to building a whole new pair of fast lines along the whole route, you don't actually need to follow the existing alignment do you?"

 

[eps200]

I think I've got the compromise right here then, which will appease the anti-HS2 campaigners.

We go for the second option to upgrade the WCML instead.

And the upgrade will include some new sections of track, and some new tunnels, and follow a route that's (coincidentally) rather similar to that of the now-axed HS2 route.

But now it's called the WCML high-capacity upgrade project.

I was thinking this could have been a blinder for labour throw in a few GWML MML and ECML improvements call it the mainline upgrade program. perhaps fiddle with some stations.

The Manchester station being elevated rather than a cutting is disappointing for example no through services in future.

 

[WatcherZero]

They did a lot of route studies on a through route, none of them were that good so their resigned to reversing back and using the spur to Wigan. Its not ideal for high speed journey times but the travel time to Wigan on HS2 starting southwards from Manchester Piccadilly and going via Manchester Airport is 30 minutes, the exact same as using the Chat Moss line which is as close to as the crow flies as you could possibly get.

 

[Philip Elliott]

I'm always reminded of the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy at this point:

"Well if you're resigned to standing around doing nothing all day, you don't actually need me here all the time do you?"

The HS2 corollary is:

"Well if you're resigned to building a whole new pair of fast lines along the whole route, you don't actually need to follow the existing alignment do you?"

Please try actually reading what I was responding to as your post has got absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying.:roll:

 

[AndyLandy]

Please try actually reading what I was responding to as your post has got absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying.:roll:

Oh, for goodness sake! It was just a joke. :roll:

So, since I've clearly misunderstood you, what point were you trying to make?

 

[Deerfold]

Please try actually reading what I was responding to as your post has got absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying.:roll:

It seemed to carry on logically for me.

 

[HowardGWR]

They did a lot of route studies on a through route, none of them were that good so their (they are?) ]resigned to reversing back and using the spur to Wigan. Its not ideal for high speed journey times but the travel time to Wigan on HS2 starting southwards from Manchester Piccadilly and going via Manchester Airport is 30 minutes, the exact same as using the Chat Moss line which is as close to as the crow flies as you could possibly get.

I don't get this (excusing my ignorance). Surely Scottish trains from London will not call at Manchester (always assuming that they don't go via the Leeds HS2 route and those won't call at Leeds will they?).

Regarding Manchester to Glasgow /Edinburgh, are you assuming that 'captive' trains will be used?

 

[joeykins82]

Post HS2 phase 2 London-Scotland journeys could presumably be done any of the following ways:
Euston to Edinburgh or Glasgow direct via Wigan on compatible stock
Euston to Manchester on captive, changing to Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh service
Euston to Edinburgh direct via York & Newcastle on compatible stock
Euston to Leeds on captive, changing to XC Leeds-Edinburgh service
I'd guess they'd all have a similar overall journey time (with the possible exception of changing at Leeds which I doubt would compete)

 

[Domeyhead]

Just to bring this thread back to first principles for a moment, is anyone aware of a detailed breakdown of the cost estimate for HS2 (whatever it happens to be at the moment). I'd like to see "Roger Ford style" breakdown of all the costs and assumptions, since the more factors that anti HS2 campaigners throw onto the HS2 cost pile, the more of that cost travels to any alternative scheme anyway. I'd like to have a detailed understanding of the Net cost of the preferred HS2 solution over any proposed alternatives, (including "the route without the speed") and the equivalent cost of any high speed alternative route such as Central Railway using exactly the same cost methodology. THanks for any pointers.

 

[AndyLandy]

I don't get this (excusing my ignorance). Surely Scottish trains from London will not call at Manchester (always assuming that they don't go via the Leeds HS2 route and those won't call at Leeds will they?).

Once phase 1 is complete, I'd expect London-Scotland services to run along HS2 to Birmingham, then use the existing WCML to head to Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Once phase 2 is complete, I'd expect them to run as far as Crewe (or maybe Wigan) and switch to the WCML there.

Longer term, I'd expect one day that an HS line will reach all the way to Glasgow & Edinburgh, but that's a few decades away.

 

[HowardGWR]

Once phase 1 is complete, I'd expect London-Scotland services to run along HS2 to Birmingham, then use the existing WCML to head to Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Once phase 2 is complete, I'd expect them to run as far as Crewe (or maybe Wigan) and switch to the WCML there.

Longer term, I'd expect one day that an HS line will reach all the way to Glasgow & Edinburgh, but that's a few decades away.

Thanks to you and Joeykins. I was puzzled as to whether WatcherZero had something in mind of which I was unaware.

 

[gordonthemoron]

If that scenario was correct for phase 1, would there be a reduction in Kings Cross-Edinburgh trains using ECML?

 

[HSTEd]

King's Cross-Edinburgh trains will likely survive the Phase 1 opening because the travel time won't be measurably improved.
But after Phase 2 I expect them to cease to exist in any meaningful sense, apart for perhaps a handful of trains to Aberdeen and Inverness assuming the Aberdeen road is not electrified.

 

[edwin_m]

King's Cross-Edinburgh trains will likely survive the Phase 1 opening because the travel time won't be measurably improved.
But after Phase 2 I expect them to cease to exist in any meaningful sense, apart for perhaps a handful of trains to Aberdeen and Inverness assuming the Aberdeen road is not electrified.

Many of the passengers at Edinburgh on these trains are travelling to/from intermediate stations. I believe (but I haven't had a chance to read it yet) the latest HS2 service specfication now leaves the ECML Scotland service moreorless unchanged.

 

[Ironside]

Just to bring this thread back to first principles for a moment, is anyone aware of a detailed breakdown of the cost estimate for HS2 (whatever it happens to be at the moment). I'd like to see "Roger Ford style" breakdown of all the costs and assumptions, since the more factors that anti HS2 campaigners throw onto the HS2 cost pile, the more of that cost travels to any alternative scheme anyway. I'd like to have a detailed understanding of the Net cost of the preferred HS2 solution over any proposed alternatives, (including "the route without the speed") and the equivalent cost of any high speed alternative route such as Central Railway using exactly the same cost methodology. THanks for any pointers.

I did recently read a breakdown of the phase 1 showing about 2.5 for the open country sections similar for tunnelling, stations, signalling, but I can't remember where I read it. It did not go into the details that you require though.

 

[tbtc]

If that scenario was correct for phase 1, would there be a reduction in Kings Cross-Edinburgh trains using ECML?

Probably not, but maybe with more stops at places like Durham/ Doncaster/ Peterborough that many Scottish services currently omit, since the focus would be less on the "end to end" passenger

 

[YorkshireBear]

King's Cross-Edinburgh trains will likely survive the Phase 1 opening because the travel time won't be measurably improved.
But after Phase 2 I expect them to cease to exist in any meaningful sense, apart for perhaps a handful of trains to Aberdeen and Inverness assuming the Aberdeen road is not electrified.

Not for me, i think we will have London KX Edinburgh services calling Peteborough, Grantham, Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh.

Occasional stops to Stevenage, Retford, Alnmouth and Dunbar.

 

[HSTEd]

I have a nasty feeling they will simply cut the service in half, either at Newcastle or (more likely) at York.