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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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HowardGWR

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according to yesterday's Daily Wail, there's only 50 miles of GCR missing and it'd only cost £6 billion (omitting trains, Crossrail2 etc) & it's Bern gauge ;) (that's what they meant, they probably don't know what Bern gauge is). They also think GCR goes to Birmingham.

What they neglected to mention was that commuters south of Aylesbury would lose their services completely amongst various other half truths and pie in the sky thinking. Plus they totally ingnored the fact that the Woodhead tunnels are used by National Grid.

I take your point but you have slightly over-egged it to my mind. The tunnels can be made available, for instance. You could also take over the Chiltern line (GCR /GWR) for non stop trains to Brum, completely, I suppose.

However, just imagine someone in a Public Inquiry being cross examined on such a daft suggestion. I do hope the MPs' scrutiny committees take expert evidence that should scotch such nonsense.

Actually I would not rule out some of the GCR north of Brum Airport being reused in the future (not necessarily for HS though).
 
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YorkshireBear

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Not bad seems sensible for a project of this size a ratio of 2.3 is not bad. Crossrail is less I believe.... Still public support at an all time low.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Though I believe it's been stated that the National Grid could use the old Woodhead tunnels leaving the 'new' tunnel for rail use. They just chose the new tunnel simply becuase it was newer.

True but my main worry about woodhead is the cost not the feasibility. Just dont think all that can be done for 6 billion! It should be reopened as part of a trunk transpennine route not a HS2 replacement.
 

Ironside

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If people change from WCML to HS2 then the above applies.

If its comparing a future with HS2 against a future with just WCML the need to take into account overcrowding and productivity of trying to use a laptop standing up!
 

ainsworth74

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Oh I'm not suggesting it's a good idea in any shape or form (cost, feasability, anything)! Just wanted to mention the situation regarding the Woodhead tunnel generally.
 

The Ham

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Maybe in the next decade, if HS2 has any politically motivated delays we could see the Public Accounts Committee make a similar statement about HS2 has they just have about Thameslink:

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/10/29/mps-voice-concerns-about-impact-of-thameslink-delays/
The Rt Hon Margaret Hodge MP, chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, said: “It was clear as long ago as 1989 that the Thameslink route needed to be upgraded but passengers will not start to see the benefits until the 2020s.

The Rt Hon XXXXX XXXXX MP, chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, said: “It was clear as long ago as 2009 that WCML route needed to be upgraded potentially by means of HS2 but passengers will not start to see the benefits until the 2050s.
 

Chris125

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Echoing my own views of the current situation, the BBC's James Landale questions the media and Westminster narrative regarding Labour and HS2 - Is Labour really going to oppose HS2?

Is Labour really going to oppose HS2?

Is Labour on an inexorable path towards opposing HS2? That appears to be the consensus at Westminster. But I am detecting a whiff of revisionism within Labour ranks, a sense that the party might have over-reached itself in its expression of doubt about the project. Here is why:

1. Ed Miliband is a supporter of HS2. His spokesmen say this. His friends say this. His shadow cabinet ministers say this. Yes, he wants the scheme to provide good value for money. But they say he is a conditional supporter of HS2, not an opponent looking for a way out. It was only in March of this year that the Labour leader told the Coventry Telegraph: "I am convinced by the business case and I am convinced by the economic and social case... the economic case is, we need a country that is connected... and the social case is, we are just way behind other countries in not having high-speed rail."

2. Ed Balls' aides insist that no decision has been made and there is an open debate to be had and that if there is no other way of creating more capacity on the railway, if the new chief executive keeps the costs down, then Labour will support HS2. The shadow chancellor, they admit, might be more sceptical than others in the shadow cabinet but they say he has a "constitutional duty" to worry about money. That is his job. It is also worth noting that in Mr Balls' conference speech - no, not this year's, but last year's, he said that it would be "ridiculous" for Tory MPs to block HS2. "No wonder business is fast losing confidence in this government's ability to make long term decisions." So that's clear then.

3. All sides accept that the shadow cabinet is divided on this. And that is true of the rest of the Labour Party, whether MPs or council leaders in the north of England. And that means that any decision to vote no to HS2 would be hard fought and not without cost.

4. Concern about whether the current plans for HS2 will provide value for money would be a legitimate worry for any shadow chancellor. They have been echoed by the National Audit Office and the Treasury select committee. But if you have convinced yourself that you are going to become the actual chancellor in less than two years, you don't want a £16 billion spending commitment to spiral out of control. In other words, Ed Balls might actually mean what he says.

5. Mr Balls can be sceptical and display what he sees as his fiscally-prudent tail feathers without actually killing off HS2. Simply by keeping the doubt and uncertainty about HS2 going for months, if not years, he can remind viewers in every interview how prudent he is being. To use his current phrase, he wants to be seen as a "proper steward of public money", which is not an office-of-profit-under-the-crown that means you have to resign from Parliament, but a name a politician gives himself when he knows that people have yet to trust him to spend their taxes wisely.

6. Talk of a £16bn pot of cash hanging there for Labour to spend on other stuff is overblown. If Labour opposes HS2, the government will cancel the project. The Treasury will then re-allocate the cash elsewhere. If Labour came to power, it would still have to switch spending priorities. And Labour officials readily admit that if they did kill HS2, they would have to use most of the £16bn on an alternative rail project to deal with the capacity crisis. What money was left, they say, they would have to spend on capital projects, not day-to-day spending.

7. Labour once marched to Peter Mandelson's tune. But no more. So when the former cabinet minister stands up in the House of Lords and denounces HS2 as a "political trophy project", not everyone will follow him.

8. The north of England matters to the Labour Party. Yes, opinion is divided and some Labour figures in the north see HS2 as a way for rich people to get to London quicker. But many other Labour folk in Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield and Nottingham see the line as a potential driver of economic activity in their patches. To scrap HS2 would not be very One Nation, so to speak.

9. Killing HS2 would open Labour up to accusations that it is anti-business, anti-investment, anti-growth, a party that is willing to play politics with long term infrastructure investment. Whatever the fairness or not of those accusations, it would be an unnecessary distraction when a substantial part of your strategy is to try to convince voters that you have something meaningful to say about the economy.

So will Labour definitely oppose HS2? I think the case is not yet proven.

And do not expect a decision soon. Some say Labour will decide before the spring when legislation giving the government the legal authority to start building HS2 comes before parliament, just before the local and European elections. But I am told that Labour could make up its mind even later, closer to the election in 2015.

So this story will run a while yet.


Chris
 
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jon0844

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Clearly Labour will support it, but the most important thing is to make it look like Labour has ensured the security of the project and kept the finances in check.
 
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Clearly Labour will support it, but the most important thing is to make it look like Labour has ensured the security of the project and kept the finances in check.

Exactly Ed a Balls can make as much noise as he likes about HS2 costs to appear tough on public spending but if the Labour leadership to abandon support for the project will lead to a backlash from Northern Council leaders and MP's who support the project and don't want the alternative of 14 years of disruption and weekend closures; something that I suspect Ed Milliband will want to avoid in the run up to an election.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Exactly Ed a Balls can make as much noise as he likes about HS2 costs to appear tough on public spending but if the Labour leadership to abandon support for the project will lead to a backlash from Northern Council leaders and MP's who support the project and don't want the alternative of 14 years of disruption and weekend closures; something that I suspect Ed Milliband will want to avoid in the run up to an election.

Joe Anderson (Liverpool) and Sir Richard Leese (Manchester) are two Labour council leaders who have already been seen to be on the attack against the negative position adopted by Ed Balls over this matter and stating just how important the HS2 project is to the North-West.

It is now that Ed Milliband should be aware of, not nearer to an election time, of how the sudden Labour perceived reticence being seen as a sign of weakness and a betrayal of core Labour economic values in their North-West heartland. It would pay Ed Milliband to be seen to be a strong party leader to stand up against Ed Balls over this matter, rather than to be seen as a dithering leader with no backbone who allows himself to be led rather than by leading.

Manchester has just had its Chinese recently-announced £800 million Beijing Construction Engineering Group investment in the Manchester Airport new City Enterprise Zone which is aided by having one of the agreed HS2 railway stations situated there.
 

tbtc

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Exactly Ed a Balls can make as much noise as he likes about HS2 costs to appear tough on public spending but if the Labour leadership to abandon support for the project will lead to a backlash from Northern Council leaders and MP's who support the project and don't want the alternative of 14 years of disruption and weekend closures; something that I suspect Ed Milliband will want to avoid in the run up to an election.

I agree - to move against HS2 is to move against business, to move against long term planning, to move against infrastructure investment, to move against the wishes of many Labour representatives etc.

It does them no harm to sound cautious about an expensive project though (given the accusations that Balls spends public money freely) - maybe flirting with cancelling HS2 will make people appreciate the benefits of it and highlighting the decent business case.

Yours optimistically...
 

IKBrunel

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Miliband has put Adonis in charge of HS2 review

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/29/hs2-labour-support-rail-costs
Ed Miliband is to throw Labour's support behind Britain's first high-speed rail line north of London if the project's incoming chairman, Sir David Higgins, is given a free hand to bring down the £42bn cost.

The Labour leader has drafted in a founding father of the HS2 project, Lord Adonis, to advise him on how the party can back the scheme.

Senior Labour sources claim the move is a sign of Miliband's "determination not to play games with the national interest" and say that the party will take its lead from Higgins.

The chief executive of Network Rail and former chief executive of the London 2012 Olympics Delivery Authority is to take over as the HS2 chairman next year. Higgins, described by one government source as a "magician" and who is close to Adonis, has indicated that the £14.4bn contingencies set aside for the project are noticeably high.

so it's in the bag for thursday
 

HSTEd

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So they will cut a couple of billion from the contingency and call it good?
 

NSEFAN

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edwin_m said:
Please explain. GCR went from Rugby to Leicester and never got into the West Midlands.

That fact is conveniently ignored by people who consider it to be a serious alternative to HS2... :roll:
 

HowardGWR

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Please explain. GCR went from Rugby to Leicester and never got into the West Midlands.
I was referring to any of the stretches (eg Sheffield to Manchester, ) thus, 'north'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That fact is conveniently ignored by people who consider it to be a serious alternative to HS2... :roll:

The GCR (south) was a joint scheme with the GWR. The latter went on to Brum and the former to Rugby.

So I am assuming the proponents of the 'GCR' scheme are suggesting the same. So the commuter business built up by Chiltern would .... (I don't know :D) .
 

NSEFAN

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HowardGWR said:
The GCR (south) was a joint scheme with the GWR. The latter went on to Brum and the former to Rugby.

So I am assuming the proponents of the 'GCR' scheme are suggesting the same. So the commuter business built up by Chiltern would .... (I don't know ) .

We would bascially end up with the same problems that we have on the current WCML: express trains mixing with commuter trains. Any scheme using the former GCR route would need a similar route to HS2 between Aylesbury and Central London to avoid this issue, probably with lots of tunnelling.

You would probably end up having to use a new alignment north of Rugby too in order to relieve the WCML. The end result would look something suspiciously like HS2 by another name. ;)
 

WatcherZero

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According to Newsnight a backbench meeting called by 40 Labour MP's from Lancashire, Yorkshire and London who summoned the Shadow Transport secretary and demanded that the party leadership stop playing games with an issue that was important to them. Milliband has now put his foot down with Balls and Labour now officially unequivocably backs HS2 again (subject to the new HS2 chairman keeping a lid on cost).
 
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jon0844

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Funny how Newsnight got that exclusive from a FoI request a week or two ago, and put it front page on the BBC website (the revelation that HS2 won't benefit people in Cardiff etc), but the above isn't on there (or certainly not prominently on the home page).
 

WatcherZero

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Yeah, I find the fuss with that amusing. It was all there in the original report and it did for example illustrate Liverpool benefitted from HS2 under low and medium growth but was hurt by it under high growth scenarios, the fact the benefits were net and that places would lose out was set out, it just didnt list all the places affected.
 

jon0844

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I think some people have begun to think that a Freedom of Information request is somehow akin to secret documents published by Wikileaks.

Newsnight hadn't obtained documents that exposed internal reports that showed HS2 was really going to cost £150bn and the company had collectively decided to lie and mislead the public. No, it simply asked for information that they could have got by asking the normal way.
 

HowardGWR

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Yeah, I find the fuss with that amusing. It was all there in the original report and it did for example illustrate Liverpool benefitted from HS2 under low and medium growth but was hurt by it under high growth scenarios, the fact the benefits were net and that places would lose out was set out, it just didnt list all the places affected.

The study of course did not take account of parallel (and in fact current and near future) investment in other major local and strategic initiatives.

I suppose if cities like Bristol were not to receive such, they might have had a beef, but as we know, Bristol and Cardiff are to get both.

I don't know of any city, well off the route of HS2, that is not receiving major rail improvement schemes in the next decade. A possible exception case could be made along the South Coast from Ramsgate to Poole, but goodness, me, these places are booming already (excluding the old seaside resort locations which is a different societal problem).
 

WatcherZero

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Suggestions recently that the Government will look to building phase 1 and 2 at the same time not successively bringing final completion date far sooner.

While this would be good news for passengers im dubious about its affects on the projects economics. Whther it would be delivering a large amount of capacity too early before the demand has matured, the recent business case for example indicates that with continuing growth if you looked at the business case in 2039 rather than when it opens in 2033 it is practically an order of magnitude better. I suspect the inverse could be possible, if you accelerated it and opened it somewhen between 2026 and 2030 you will find a lot of empty trains or reduced service frequency leaving the project open to accusations of being a white elephant.

On another note im getting really annoyed with City A.M.'s blatent London centric attitude when they call for phase 1 to be built as it supports London but to cancel phase 2, they are ignoring the fact phase 2's BCR is a lot higher than phase 1's.
 

Kettledrum

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Suggestions recently that the Government will look to building phase 1 and 2 at the same time not successively bringing final completion date far sooner.

While this would be good news for passengers im dubious about its affects on the projects economics. Whther it would be delivering a large amount of capacity too early before the demand has matured, the recent business case for example indicates that with continuing growth if you looked at the business case in 2039 rather than when it opens in 2033 it is practically an order of magnitude better. I suspect the inverse could be possible, if you accelerated it and opened it somewhen between 2026 and 2030 you will find a lot of empty trains or reduced service frequency leaving the project open to accusations of being a white elephant.

On another note im getting really annoyed with City A.M.'s blatent London centric attitude when they call for phase 1 to be built as it supports London but to cancel phase 2, they are ignoring the fact phase 2's BCR is a lot higher than phase 1's.

Perhaps the tracks could be built, but the delivery of the rolling stock staggered over a number of years, so the initial trains were not run at maximum length. This would allow demand to grow over a number of years. Perhaps the station infrastructure might also all not be fully build by the start?
 

Ironside

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Suggestions recently that the Government will look to building phase 1 and 2 at the same time not successively bringing final completion date far sooner.

While this would be good news for passengers im dubious about its affects on the projects economics. Whther it would be delivering a large amount of capacity too early before the demand has matured, the recent business case for example indicates that with continuing growth if you looked at the business case in 2039 rather than when it opens in 2033 it is practically an order of magnitude better. I suspect the inverse could be possible, if you accelerated it and opened it somewhen between 2026 and 2030 you will find a lot of empty trains or reduced service frequency leaving the project open to accusations of being a white elephant.

On another note im getting really annoyed with City A.M.'s blatent London centric attitude when they call for phase 1 to be built as it supports London but to cancel phase 2, they are ignoring the fact phase 2's BCR is a lot higher than phase 1's.

I would imagine that if they really thought big then doing both either at the same time and then use the spare capacity when open to shut parts of the east and west coast main line for refurbishment. That is to say the shutting of the lines at those times will **** off less people than it otherwise would have. Those that were employed in building phase 1 and 2 can either be employed in rebuilding the classic lines or phase 3 to Scotland.
 

HSTEd

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I think this is a case of 'if you build it they will come'. The social changes that lead to explosive growth will be triggered at opening but will take time to bed n.

Better to go to Max capacity on day one and start fares really low before ratcheting up as patronage climbs t capacity.
Half measures are a false economy in the projects such as this.
 

joeykins82

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If there would otherwise have to be interventions on the MML and ECML between 2026-2033 that could be avoided by opening HS2 phase 2 at the same time as phase 1 then that may be a consideration
 

The Ham

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Suggestions recently that the Government will look to building phase 1 and 2 at the same time not successively bringing final completion date far sooner.

While this would be good news for passengers im dubious about its affects on the projects economics. Whther it would be delivering a large amount of capacity too early before the demand has matured, the recent business case for example indicates that with continuing growth if you looked at the business case in 2039 rather than when it opens in 2033 it is practically an order of magnitude better. I suspect the inverse could be possible, if you accelerated it and opened it somewhen between 2026 and 2030 you will find a lot of empty trains or reduced service frequency leaving the project open to accusations of being a white elephant.

On another note im getting really annoyed with City A.M.'s blatent London centric attitude when they call for phase 1 to be built as it supports London but to cancel phase 2, they are ignoring the fact phase 2's BCR is a lot higher than phase 1's.

It may well depend on what passenger growth does, as the current 2 phase scheme is designed around a fairly low growth. However if growth continues at 4% from now (where we're already past the predicted 2016 passenger growth levels) till 2023 we could have the same number of passengers as were anticipated by 2033. 6% and we could hit the figure in 2019!!! (bearing in mind the ICWC franchise bidders were looking for 5%)

It is therefore fairly reasonable, given recent passenger growth levels to look to look at ways of being able to build HS2 faster if it is needed. This then highlights the problem with building patches which just about meet the projected passenger demand of 2033, in that real passenger demand may well outstrip those enhancements.
 
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