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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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edwin_m

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The only trains that run on the WCML between the edge of Glasgow and Carlisle are freight, Virgin to London and Birmingham and TPX to Manchester Airport. Everything else runs via the South Western line.

True, but only if you consider Carstairs to be the edge of Glasgow. There is an EMU service between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Carstairs.

I imagine with HS2 phase 3 the Scots would want to add a local to Carlisle to pick up the Carstairs and Lockerbie stops and perhaps reopen a few others. This would have a similar average speed to the freight so would use less capacity than the existing passenger service.
 
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PR1Berske

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The above link refers to the preparation bill and it is currently on stage 4 out of 5 in the house of commons. After that there are 5 stages in the house of lords followed by by a further stage if alterations need to be made then royal assent ( queen has to sign the piece of paper).

I know the stages of legislation.
 

NotATrainspott

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Did you forget XC?

I based the statement on the Realtimetrains page for every train going past Lockerbie today. XC run via Carstairs to Edinburgh and then on across the cross country network as the Birmingham-Central Belt services were transferred to ICWC, as the Manchester Airport services may be if the Baby Pendolinos come about.

The plan for the Scottish HSR is to build the Glasgow/Edinburgh link well before HS2 reaches it but only as a ~140mph line connecting into the existing networks at both ends with Javelin-style trains running the shuttle. As many of the local DMU services using the Glasgow end tracks would be electrified and routed into Central LL to free up space for the new shuttle services, while the Dalmeny Chord would be built on the Edinburgh side to free up the southern lines through Haymarket for the same service. The new track will be built to full GC loading gauge but since it won't involve any urban running or serious tunneling it won't cost a lot at all and is easily affordable after the New Forth Crossing is finished. Via a three-way junction it will then have to connect to the existing WCML. Carstairs is a village so serving it even just to split/combine 400m HS2 trains is pretty absurd.

The real problem for this section of HSR would be actually making it pay since the limiting factor is the number of paths available at the Euston end. I don't see Manchester or anywhere else giving up a path to allow even one more service an hour to run on this northern section (which is as long as phase 1 and 2 put together, remember). I imagine they'll have to fill it with services to Manchester etc for the sole purpose of allowing further connections to London more often.
 

The Ham

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It could well be that phase 3 would be to effectivly replace the ECML, to provide more capacity on phase 1 and to provide the link to Scotland.
 

edwin_m

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Did you forget XC?

XC doesn't run south of Carstairs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It could well be that phase 3 would be to effectivly replace the ECML, to provide more capacity on phase 1 and to provide the link to Scotland.

I think you mean "duplicate" rather than "replace", as there will always need to be some sort of service on the whole length of both ECML and WCML to provide for those stations not served by HS2.

There is indeed the option of a second high speed route out of London, further east to link somewhere with the Leeds route. As far as I can tell no work has been done on this except to decide in principle that if more capacity was needed out of London the eastern route would be better than four-tracking the Birmingham route. Hence the Phase 1 design makes no provision for four-tracking.

However the Phase 1 and 2 service patterns include Scotland services on the London-Birmingham leg so the eastward route would only be built if demand was a lot higher than expected and more than could be satisfied by running double deck trains.
 

AndyLandy

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There is indeed the option of a second high speed route out of London, further east to link somewhere with the Leeds route. As far as I can tell no work has been done on this except to decide in principle that if more capacity was needed out of London the eastern route would be better than four-tracking the Birmingham route. Hence the Phase 1 design makes no provision for four-tracking.

Where would such a line terminate at the London end? I'd hate for us to end up with London having multiple HS terminals.
 

HowardGWR

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XC doesn't run south of Carstairs.

Thanks, I have learned something. I had no idea they only doglegged to Glasgow via Edinburgh. I suppose this is because of Virgin being allocated the Glasgow service from Brum, but it means SW / Wales pax have mostly to change at Brum for Glasgow. I wonder why either TOC did not get a chance to start from those locations?

This may seem off topic, but chimes with my idea of SW / Wales compatible services running on HS2 north of Brum.
 

edwin_m

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Where would such a line terminate at the London end? I'd hate for us to end up with London having multiple HS terminals.

That's a very good question which I doubt anybody has really thought about - as I say it only seems to have been considered as an alternative to four-tracking, which would have needed a similar amount of terminal capacity.

I rather doubt Euston could be extended again, so I think we'd be looking at somewhere in the Stratford area. A route via Stansted, Cambridge and Peterborough would open up some interesting possiblities.
 
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HSTEd

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If Scotland goes independant the west coast alignment is dead. It has no real English pop centre to serve. An eastern route gets Tyneside which makes it superior. Though I prefer he east alignment anyway for cost reasons. You save fifty miles of track at the cost of about ten minutes.
 

Ironside

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I know the stages of legislation.

I wasn't suggesting you didn't. It's good practise to summarise the contents of a link (or quote a part of it) so people can understand what you were referring to if the link fails for some reason.
 
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tbtc

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Where would such a line terminate at the London end? I'd hate for us to end up with London having multiple HS terminals.

No reason why they have to serve the same London terminus - virtually nobody would be using High Speed to go Cambridge - London - Manchester.

I could accept that, due to space constraints (and the price of land in central London) it'd be unrealistic to have one mega-station.

That's a very good question which I doubt anybody has really thought about - as I say it only seems to have been considered as an alternative to four-tracking, which would have needed a similar amount of terminal capacity.

I rather doubt Euston could be extended again, so I think we'd be looking at somewhere in the Stratford area. A route via Stansted, Cambridge and Peterborough would open up some interesting possiblities.

Would be very interesting.

Doesn't have to be identical to HS2 in terms of speed/ stock - could even have HS3 as a version of BML2 (South Coast - Croydon - Docklands - Stratford - Stansted - Cambridge - Peterborough - Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds) :lol:
 

AndyLandy

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No reason why they have to serve the same London terminus - virtually nobody would be using High Speed to go Cambridge - London - Manchester.

I could accept that, due to space constraints (and the price of land in central London) it'd be unrealistic to have one mega-station.

I agree with you on that point, but my thoughts are more about what happens further in the future when we're building HS4/5. I can quite well imagine there being an HS line or two from the South West into London some day, and if HS2 and HS3 leave from different terminals, you'd make connections difficult for at least one of those.

Of course, it may make more sense to route the line a different way. When we come down to it, I foresee any future HS network being centred around Birmingham rather than London, but we should probably keep the longer-term goals of the HS lines in mind.
 

NotATrainspott

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If Scotland does become independent I don't honestly see it affecting plans for HSR since the Inter City market will still be as strong as it is today, if not stronger. The EU is awfully keen on the whole Trans-European networks thing of which the WCML is a part at the moment and thusly so will HS2.

What I think would be a good idea would be to build something akin to the Lords proposal for HS2 in roughly the same area, but going via an underground Paddington station to OOC. This would mean the London calling pattern would be: Stansted > Stratford International > Camden Interchange/Kings Cross > Paddington > Old Oak Common > Heathrow Airport > and onwards along the Great Western HSR or up to HS2. The central London section wouldn't be vastly expensive because the vast majority of services wouldn't terminate and thus won't need as big or as many platform caverns and tunnels. Building tunnels for GC loading gauge won't be that much more expensive than what they're building for Crossrail now since the cost of increasing bore isn't linear. Capacity on the surface for 400m captive trains from the EC HSR could be provided at St Pancras by sending some Eurostars through the tunnels to Heathrow, if required.
 

Muzer

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If Scotland goes independant the west coast alignment is dead. It has no real English pop centre to serve. An eastern route gets Tyneside which makes it superior. Though I prefer he east alignment anyway for cost reasons. You save fifty miles of track at the cost of about ten minutes.
You know, there is a rather large gradient between "going independent" and "building a Berlin wall" (Hadrian's wall?). Any high-speed rail projects across the border could still be done in partnership with Scotland, assuming our government don't childishly fall out with Scotland should that happen.
 

NotATrainspott

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That's 130 miles of railway, including 30 miles of tunnel, to link islands with two different rail gauges. Can't wait to see the BCR for that...

Nonetheless the BCR would go up. Slightly.

If it were to be built it would end up being with a self-contained HSR from the tunnel portal through Belfast to Dublin. The Spanish have done the same thing and it hasn't worked too badly.
 

brianthegiant

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There is an interesting question about whether the UK government would pay for phase 3 within England if Scotland decided to become independent, and what this might do for the economics of phases 1 and 2.

Every serious opinion poll says a significant majority of Scots are against independence. Unless Westminster does something to really upset Scotland in the next 12 months, it isn't going to happen. Hopefully for Scotland this doesn't prevent more gradual devolution in the medium term.

So I think these discussions about what if Scotland goes independent are very hypothetical, sorry!
 

edwin_m

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So I think these discussions about what if Scotland goes independent are very hypothetical, sorry!

Maybe so, but that hasn't stopped anyone on this forum before!

Also I think Alex Salmond is one of the cleverest politicians active in the UK at present and he will have a fair number of rabbits waiting to be pulled out of the hat when the time comes.

I believe the possible consequence of independence for HS2 would be more about whether phase 3 will be funded than how many people will use it if it is. The UK (=English in this context) government may not be willing to pay for expensive infrastructure from Preston or Newcastle to the border simply to benefit another country*. The Scottish government may not be willing or able to fund said expensive infrastructure outside their borders.

*In fact it would benefit England too, but if independence happens I fear the sort of insular attitude you see in some English politicians could gain much more of a hold.
 

tec

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Today's headlines "George Osborne 'passionate' about HS2"

Mr Osbourne must be feeling very lonely, as nobody else shares his views.

I don't share his views, and neither do my local council to whom I pay taxes.

My local council are going to fight HS2 until it's final death. The death of HS2.
 

samxool

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Today's headlines "George Osborne 'passionate' about HS2"

Mr Osbourne must be feeling very lonely, as nobody else shares his views.

I don't share his views, and neither do my local council to whom I pay taxes.

My local council are going to fight HS2 until it's final death. The death of HS2.

Glad to hear that your council tax you will be paying will be completely wasted on a pointless legal fight, as Hs2 will be built. Meanwhile, my council tax will be spent on improving roads and services in my area.
 

HowardGWR

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Today's headlines "George Osborne 'passionate' about HS2"

Mr Osbourne must be feeling very lonely, as nobody else shares his views.

I don't share his views, and neither do my local council to whom I pay taxes.

My local council are going to fight HS2 until it's final death. The death of HS2.

What's the purpose of your post? What do you hope to achieve? (It's Osborne by the way) This is becoming another kind of trolling - 'nobody shares his views' -what self-evident nonsense! .:(:(
 

NotATrainspott

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In any case I don't see a hypothetical independent Scottish rail network as being much different to what we've got at the moment. Scotland has always been able to be divided cleanly into its own railway region and so we've had ScotRail, in its various forms and guises, run the vast majority of our services for decades now while there has been a huge amount of switching and swapping and franchise reforming going on down south. Apart from the few Newcastle local services which are run by Northern after Carlisle the only cross-border trains are Inter City services just like all of those which cross mainland European borders every day without any trouble whatsoever.

The funding issue might be more of an English issue than you might think because so much of the London/SE air capacity is taken up by Scottish flights. Proper HSR all the way will annihilate the air market to the Central Belt, especially if they build the spur to Heathrow.
 

Class83

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I think it will come down to both governments paying for the works on their own sides of the border whether there is independence or not as transport spending is devolved to Scotland.

HS2 Ltd did produce a route from Wigan to south of Lancaster skirting Wigan and Preston centres which was costed at £2bn due to requirement for tunneling, if that can be taken as indicative of the cost of a Scotland link it would put the costs for the English side at around £5bn with probably something similar on the Scottish side.

HS2 is to my understanding a national project (without any Barnett consequential) thus presumably any part of HS2 in Scotland would still be paid for by Westminster. Unless they give the Scottish Exec their 10% of the costs in England which can be used to pay for Edinburgh/Glasgow-Gretna?
 

Trog

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Today's headlines "George Osborne 'passionate' about HS2"

Mr Osbourne must be feeling very lonely, as nobody else shares his views.

I don't share his views, and neither do my local council to whom I pay taxes.

My local council are going to fight HS2 until it's final death. The death of HS2.


I will be so amused if your council loses and catches loads of costs.
 

PR1Berske

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Great article from Alex Burrows summing up the case for HS2

Without HS2 passengers will be priced off the railways

Chris

The correct figure is £42.6 billion

No it's not. Nobody knows the correct end figure, it's already gone up since Labour agreed to it, and could/will increase as it advances.


With trains offering a much improved passenger experience with improving wifi facilities, comfort and reliability, this passenger demand will continue on this trend.

London-centric tosh. These improvements only exist in the commuter glory world of London and the South. No such advances in the North (as ever).

Selling HS2 as a means to travel in luxury is all very well were the entire nation at the same point. It's not.

That leaves us with the country's most important railway line (the West Coast Main Line) hitting absolute maximum capacity by the end of this decade.

As admitted on this forum, WCML is only just approaching something close to capacity in two parts of the country. HS2 won't necessarily solve this.

A number of opponents to HS2 chime in here with the argument about alternatively spending money on local transport.

Damn right we do. Spend the same amount of money in the North as on HS2, and you get a better all round transport system.

Yes, local transport is crucial too, but HS2 will deliver additional capacity for local and regional trains across eight of the ten major cities and their regions

No proof. And it will ignore dozens of towns and cities who have no HS2 station despite the line going past them.

The issue is that our current railway network has to cope with intercity trains, commuter and regional trains, as well as freight trains. They all stop in different places and go at significantly different speeds. This is not an efficient use of railway capacity and is blocking the potential for ongoing growth.

Improvements in signalling and timetabling can go a long way to solve this.

Make do and mend is wasteful, inefficient, impractical and poor value.

It's not about make-do-and-mend. Focused resources and better use of spending has always shown better results.
 

jon0844

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Better use of spending is a new line, rather than upgrading an ancient, bendy and live running line.
 

NotATrainspott

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No it's not. Nobody knows the correct end figure, it's already gone up since Labour agreed to it, and could/will increase as it advances.
It's gone up because people in Buckinghamshire wanted it to be put in more tunnels than are needed. Would you prefer the cost to be advertised as lower? Will you then just complain that it wouldn't be delivered on budget? It is a lose-lose situation for HS2 Ltd since if they do get it under budget they'll at best be ignored by those who said it would be over budget and at worst be accused of cutting corners and therefore have the antis try to tell the public it is unsafe.

You know what happens to the money spent on infrastructure? You know it pays for real things like bulldozers and concrete and bits of metal and to pay workers wages? You know that the Government will see a lot of the money come back in through the taxation system? You know that workers wages are spent on paying for other things like houses and cars which the Government will get tax revenue off? The cost of this scheme is miniscule in comparison to our economy and government expenditure and if it isn't spent on HS2 it won't be spent on anything else. Current Government policy is to replace current spending (i.e. benefits) with capital spending and that's why there have been so many infrastructure schemes approved.
London-centric tosh. These improvements only exist in the commuter glory world of London and the South. No such advances in the North (as ever).
Northern Hub.
Selling HS2 as a means to travel in luxury is all very well were the entire nation at the same point. It's not.
It's also theoretically a means to have Ryanrail with 5-abreast double-decker trains. Either way you're going to complain about it. You know that effectively no one uses the classic lines between Paris and Lyon now for the reason that the high-speed services are better for everyone.
As admitted on this forum, WCML is only just approaching something close to capacity in two parts of the country. HS2 won't necessarily solve this.
It's at capacity the whole way along the WCML between Birmingham and London unless you close every local station along the route and therefore decimate the property values of a huge swathe of the London commuter belt.
Damn right we do. Spend the same amount of money in the North as on HS2, and you get a better all round transport system.
We only have to spend so much in London and the SE because: 1. the networks there are already pretty full with 12 car electric trains so there's not much else to do than to build expensive schemes and 2. the people who live there have more power and influence in raising the cost of schemes simply to reduce the inconvenience to them. Things also cost more in general down there since all the wages of workers have to be high enough to afford reasonably local housing.
No proof. And it will ignore dozens of towns and cities who have no HS2 station despite the line going past them.
There may be dozens of towns but not a great number of them are big enough to fill a 400m double decker train. HS2 is not a glorified Metropolitan line and it shouldn't be. It connects truly global cities together, not wee villages in the heart of Middle England and that is a good thing.
Improvements in signalling and timetabling can go a long way to solve this.
The best signalling in the world can't fix the fact that a 140mph Pendolino will go faster than a 75 stopping Pacer. There is no Moving Block signalling in use on a line anywhere near as complicated as the WCML and even on the Tube where the lines are often operationally unconnected with another with every train doing exactly the same thing they haven't managed it either.
It's not about make-do-and-mend. Focused resources and better use of spending has always shown better results.

If you applied that argument to other situations you would see the absurdity. If we did what you wanted we wouldn't have built road bypasses, we would have demolished city and town centres every 5 to 10 years to build marginally bigger roads every time.
 
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