High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[RichmondCommu]

Ludicrous suggestion. :roll:

You would loose the whole point of the new line. The only suggestion that has any merit (and then very little merit!) is the M25 one and only then if situated at, essentially, Heathrow Airport.

Aylesbury has about 40 people in it and will be served by a revolutionised E-W and Chilterns line service. The West Midlands can be served by normal trains to Birmingham and HS2 from there, Stoke isn't big enough or important enough and Manchester will have its own station. What would be the benefit of a station in Manchester then another about 5 minutes into the journey somewhere in "south Manchester"?

Well essentially Stoke is full of Labour voters and is too far gone to be worth saving. And let's not get on to Stockport........ :roll:
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Mr N Harris.

Ahh! Last time I saw Mr Harris he was on the footplate of a steam loco on the Wirksworth branch!

 

[yorksrob]

Ahh! Last time I saw Mr Harris he was on the footplate of a steam loco on the Wirksworth branch!

Ah yes, he's mentioned he works on that !

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ah yes, he's mentioned he works on that !

I bet he did! I saw him on the footplate of the BR Standard last summer! I must admit I was rather envious!

 

[Snapper]

Well done Dave you're certainly showing your ignorance here. Obviously you don't have an appreciation of the Chilterns but many others do. As for your question regarding the M40, well you would need to ask the locals but they might argue that at least they have access to it!
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The Chilterns aren't that special, even for an AONB. Only 5% is unspoilt & virgin. The rest is a pretty commuter belt where the hand of man is writ large. It certainly doesn't deserve any more protection than say, the AONB that HS1 runs through...

 

[jon0844]

AONB standing for Area Of Not in my Backyarders.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The Chilterns aren't that special, even for an AONB. Only 5% is unspoilt & virgin. The rest is a pretty commuter belt where the hand of man is writ large. It certainly doesn't deserve any more protection than say, the AONB that HS1 runs through...

What's a AONB?

 

[jon0844]

What's a AONB?

Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty. But I preferred my definition.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty. But I preferred my definition.

In which case I would say the Chilterns falls firmly into that bracket. I'm all for infrastructure improvements and in particular HS2 but lets not destroy what we already have.

 

[D365]

What little we have left That's why HS2 has been put into tunnel, a lot of the way.

 

[TheGrew]

I do wonder if much of our rail network would have been built if we had been so worried about AONB(s) in the 1800s. I doubt the Settle and Carlisle Line would exist for starters, or how about the WCML through the Lake District. Surely beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I would much rather have a two track railway than motorway.

 

[jon0844]

Chimneys, pylons, TV aerials, satellite dishes, cellular masts and wind turbines...

 

[D365]

OHLE? Still better than the twinkling motorway/road lights, in a way! Though YorkshireBear below does have a point.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Chimneys, pylons, TV aerials, satellite dishes, cellular masts and wind turbines...

The list goes on and on and on and on... I think a railway can add to an environment and certainly does in the dales. Railways aren't always ugly, just look though the photo section on here to see that.

Shameless plug for my own photo i put on there as an experimental photo... :P

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89011

 

[Dave1987]

Well done Dave you're certainly showing your ignorance here. Obviously you don't have an appreciation of the Chilterns but many others do. As for your question regarding the M40, well you would need to ask the locals but they might argue that at least they have access to it!

So what makes the Chilterns different to any other green space?

Your comment regarding the M40 makes me laugh. The M40 provides constant noise from traffic, yet I don't see them campaigning to get it closed.

 

[TheGrew]

This is perhaps a bit more of a lateral argument but if HS2 makes it as fast to commute from Central Birmingham to London Zone 1 as it is from the Chilterns then surely there will be less encroachment into the Chilterns in terms of new build. I know it is protected and everything but for how long? How desperate will this country get for more housing?
A bit lateral but an interesting thought never the less.

 

[Muzer]

Chimneys, pylons, TV aerials, satellite dishes, cellular masts and wind turbines...

Maybe I'm weird, but I think all of these (in moderation!) can look beautiful just as a railway can. There can be a certain beauty in many industrial/functional structures, IMHO, as long as not every corner is plastered with them

 

[jon0844]

As with most things, you get used to them and eventually stop noticing them at all (unless you really look).

An interesting point was made about about development in the Chilterns. If HS2 means people can move out further (not that I'm saying it's a good thing, but it probably would happen) then HS2 might protect these areas of 'natural beauty'. Indeed, if the HS2 protestors got their way and had a new station built, so HS2 benefitted them, they'd invariably end up with loads more houses built on their land.

 

[HowardGWR]

So what makes the Chilterns different to any other green space?

Your comment regarding the M40 makes me laugh. The M40 provides constant noise from traffic, yet I don't see them campaigning to get it closed.

Indeed, I am a CPRE member and the typical CPRE member is very choosy about what is objectionable. Everything that is to his convenience is usually OK as long as it is out of his domain.

If you examine the proposals for HS2, the Metroland lot are now almost completely unaffected, due to extensive tunnels, and there is just this crossing of the valley thereafter (across the M25 I might add) and then the Chilterns AONB is mostly tunnelled through.

Compare the two maps of M40 and HS2 and you will see the point.

By the way, what makes the Chilterns AONB special is that designation.
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As with most things, you get used to them and eventually stop noticing them at all (unless you really look).

An interesting point was made about about development in the Chilterns. If HS2 means people can move out further (not that I'm saying it's a good thing, but it probably would happen) then HS2 might protect these areas of 'natural beauty'. Indeed, if the HS2 protestors got their way and had a new station built, so HS2 benefitted them, they'd invariably end up with loads more houses built on their land.

There is some truth in this. The AONB designation does not prevent development. Only development that is 'detrimental' to the landscape would be so judged. If developments were all in the 'bijou cottage pastiche' style and carefully leafy, I suspect they would get through, even affordable housing.

 

[tbtc]

In which case I would say the Chilterns falls firmly into that bracket. I'm all for infrastructure improvements and in particular HS2 but lets not destroy what we already have.

If the Chilterns are beautiful enough to qualify as an AONB then I'd suggest that we have destroyed large chunks by building thousands of houses on them already.

There's plenty of areas of genuine wilderness in the "desolate" north - which southeners will be able to visit a lot quicker once we build a high speed railway line.

 

[AndyLandy]

There's plenty of areas of genuine wilderness in the "desolate" north - which southeners will be able to visit a lot quicker once we build a high speed railway line.

Well, it will be, until you plough a high speed railway through it, so the Southerners can get there to see it.

 

[tsr]

By the way, what makes the Chilterns AONB special is that designation.

Nope, what makes the Chilterns officially special is the AONB designation. It's nice enough without a short acronym!

 

[HowardGWR]

If the Chilterns are beautiful enough to qualify as an AONB then I'd suggest that we have destroyed large chunks by building thousands of houses on them already.

There's plenty of areas of genuine wilderness in the "desolate" north - which southeners will be able to visit a lot quicker once we build a high speed railway line.

The AsONB were first designated in the late 40s by a Labour government. By definition, being 'leafy' or 'grassy', they are Conservative voting areas, so it is interesting that most of the development to which you refer has been voted through, down the years, by Tory councils, the very ones now opposing HS2.

I live in an AONB and have come across the same phenomenon in my area. Interestingly, if you actually look at the Chiltern areas that are affected, the housing is mainly very sparse indeed. I doubt if there are many votes to be got from this opposition and I would have thought they were already in the bag anyway . On the other hand, if you live in the centre or north of Aylesbury (not in the AONB anyway) you would not be bothered, I would have thought, unless you play your golf at Lower Hartwell.
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Nope, what makes the Chilterns officially special is the AONB designation. It's nice enough without a short acronym!

I meant special in planning terms, as that was what we were discussing. I thought that did not need specifying.

 

[jon0844]

Won't a lot of the opposition be from rather wealthy land owners, who have used their power and influence to get other people enraged?

I really do believe that once these people get what they want (concessions and/or compensation) then they'll go quiet and the whole anti-HS2 thing will fade away.

 

[Chris125]

Appoint HS2 minister to get grip on costs, urges Lord Adonis

"Meanwhile, Labour dismissed reports that the party was wavering on HS2, insisting that the shadow chancellor Ed Balls's warnings on costs showed that a Labour government would simply deliver the project to budget. Key figures are convinced that alternatives would prove as expensive and more disruptive, and would not provide a long-term solution to a crowded railway.

Maria Eagle, the shadow transport secretary, said: "As commuters know, overcrowding is getting worse with more and more forced to stand in cramped carriages. That's why Labour remains firmly committed to getting long-distance rail services on to a new north-south rail line, freeing up space on existing track for more frequent local services. I am clear that the £50.1bn budget, set by the current government, must be the absolute limit and ministers must make every effort not to spend the £16.1bn of this budget that is there only as a contingency."

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

Appoint HS2 minister to get grip on costs, urges Lord Adonis

Sounds like a good idea. Perhaps such a minister could be from the Lords. Someone like Adonis for instance - that might also demonstrate cross-party support...

 

[CalderRail]

Adonis doesn't even have his own parties support.

 

[PR1Berske]

Sounds like a good idea. Perhaps such a minister could be from the Lords. Someone like Adonis for instance - that might also demonstrate cross-party support...

It would be ridiculous for the HS2 cheerleaders to have as their voice in government an unelected, unaccountable mouth-piece.

 

[AndyLandy]

It would be ridiculous for the HS2 cheerleaders to have as their voice in government an unelected, unaccountable mouth-piece.

You know who Andrew Adonis is, right?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

You know who Andrew Adonis is, right?

One of the best transport secretaries we have had in years

 

[PR1Berske]

One of the best transport secretaries we have had in years

I liked him when he was the "train taking Lord", I didn't mind that.

Now he's turned into a lobbyists mouthpiece.

I liked him talking about giving Northern railway stations funding and refurbishment priorities.

But now he's turned into a lobbyists mouthpiece.