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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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pablo

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............ don't see how it's any different from making ongoing connections now.

For sure, it won't be for everyone, but I don't see any reason why we couldn't make a well-designed and efficient transfer process so that passengers coming off the end of HS2 can make practical and convenient onward connections to major destinations in the North.

Well, you're optimistic aren't you? Presently Virgin and Arriva can't make a simple connection at Crewe. Behaviour will change with HS2 ?

My weekly commute north uses five trains; takes 4½ to 5½ hours, of which at least 1¼ hours is hanging around time. If only the roads weren't car parks!
 
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AndyLandy

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Well, you're optimistic aren't you? Presently Virgin and Arriva can't make a simple connection at Crewe. Behaviour will change with HS2 ?

As things stand, we're not even running HS2 into the same station as the ongoing connecting services. You'll have to get off at Curzon Street and cart your bags to New Street. It may not be far, but it's still going to add some time and complexity to peoples journeys.

All I'm saying is that it's possible to do this well. What we actually end up doing however is another matter.
 

pablo

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Aaah, you'll have to go and live in Switzerland for that.
Go read the other thread about IoW trains where the guards won't get out of one carriage and into t'other at a station.
Apparently they've been stopped from using the communicating doors between carriages. Elf 'n safety y'know.
All things are possible, it's just that they don't happen unless there's a will and that is sadly lacking in many quarters. Doesn't pay to be too optimistic. It only leads to disappointment in this world. :(
 

Chris125

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HS2 should be designed so it feeds into the Cross Country network with a fleet of Eurostar type trains that can tilt on clasic routes

I don't agree, Cross Country services come with much greater performance risks and so have a disproportionate impact on capacity due to the padding required - the way they are predominantly used for medium distance inter-regional travel is also much less suited to routeing via a High Speed Line than Inter-City journeys.

As for having tilt like the Voyagers, not only is that considered impractical for High Speed trainsets (especially within the UK loading guage) but the journey time savings really aren't worth the extra expense - hence why Cross Country services have had it disabled.

Chris
 
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HowardGWR

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Well, you're optimistic aren't you? Presently Virgin and Arriva can't make a simple connection at Crewe. Behaviour will change with HS2 ?

My weekly commute north uses five trains; takes 4½ to 5½ hours, of which at least 1¼ hours is hanging around time. If only the roads weren't car parks!

Fascinating -could you list the stations involved?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't agree, Cross Country services come with much greater performance risks and so have a disproportionate impact on capacity due to the padding required - the way they are predominantly used for medium distance inter-regional travel is also much less suited to routeing via a High Speed Line than Inter-City journeys.

As for having tilt like the Voyagers, not only is that considered impractical for High Speed trainsets (especially within the UK loading guage) but the journey time savings really aren't worth the extra expense - hence why Cross Country services have had it disabled.

Chris


I agree with you with what I assume you think is a danger to timetabling on the HS routes, namely an unreliable cross country service, (if that is what you meant) but are you saying that an otherwise non-stop service between 1) Cardiff / Bristol - Birmingham - Leeds - Newcastle -Edinburgh and 2) Cardiff / Bristol - Birmingham - Manchester - Glasgow

is not strategically as important as any other cross Britain HS connectivity?
 

Chris125

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I agree with you with what I assume you think is a danger to timetabling on the HS routes, namely an unreliable cross country service, (if that is what you meant) but are you saying that an otherwise non-stop service between 1) Cardiff / Bristol - Birmingham - Leeds - Newcastle -Edinburgh and 2) Cardiff / Bristol - Birmingham - Manchester - Glasgow

is not strategically as important as any other cross Britain HS connectivity?

I guess it depends on what you see as being 'strategically important', but I think it's questionable whether the demand exists to justify the kind of services you describe - inter-regional traffic, as I understand it, a major reason for the recent success of Cross Country services.

Chris
 
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WatcherZero

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Another big assualt launched on HS2 tommorow by the Conservative thinktank the Insitute of Economic Affairs, they will argue that the cost of HS2 has doubled to £80bn through some rather flimsy addition.

They argue that local campaigns will be sucessful and that more will be diverted or put in tunnels driving up the cost.
That HS2 stations will need new rail, tram and bus lines and that this should all be included in the HS2 tally.
That Councils along the route will push for regeneration grants to local high streets and provide new facilities around stations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...e-cost-to-double-to-80bn-economists-warn.html

Also amusing reading the comments:

For £80bn we could pay all immigrants arrived in the last few decades to leave

A pan-EU hi-speed rail network is a wheeze dreamed-up by the same lot who pushed for the Euro. HS2 is only to satisfy an EU diktat, FACT! The cost is immaterial to the elite fools in Westminster who fancy a sinecure in Brussels with 5% income tax for life. Vote UKIP!

HS2 is, like the windmills, another government scam, in order to reap enormous financial benefits to a minority, at the expense of the majority.
The stinking eu, and their adherents, need stopping in their tracks, and the so called democracy, does not work any longer.
 

TheKnightWho

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Another big assualt launched on HS2 tommorow by the Conservative thinktank the Insitute of Economic Affairs, they will argue that the cost of HS2 has doubled to £80bn through some rather flimsy addition.

They argue that local campaigns will be sucessful and that more will be diverted or put in tunnels driving up the cost.
That HS2 stations will need new rail, tram and bus lines and that this should all be included in the HS2 tally.
That Councils along the route will push for regeneration grants to local high streets and provide new facilities around stations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...e-cost-to-double-to-80bn-economists-warn.html

Also amusing reading the comments:

All I can say to those comments is: "You reap what you sow." The press have been banging on with rubbish like this for the last 15 years, so it's no surprise that people actually believe this sort of insanity with regards to the EU.

Healthy scepticism? Great. Made-up crap to find a scapegoat? Not so much.
 

WatcherZero

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I do find it so amusing that whenever people are in the minority of public opinion they claim democracy is broken because it doesnt place them above the majority.
 

TheKnightWho

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I do find it so amusing that whenever people are in the minority of public opinion they claim democracy is broken because it doesnt place them above the majority.

Although Churchill did say that the greatest argument against democracy was to spend 5 minutes talking to the average voter.
 

HSTEd

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I severely doubt even putting the entire route in tunnel would add that much to the cost.

Then again if you did you could eliminate the blight grants entirely and shorten the route into a series of straight lines between the stations.
 

WatcherZero

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Must be a co-ordinated weekend attack, Daily Mail is running with a story saying villages upto 25 miles away will be blighted with construction traffic and showing a map of the country with large swathes coloured for impact on property during construction.

Totally fail to mention that construction in any one area will be brief and most of the time they will be moving the trucks up and down the alignment itself rather than local roads.
 

jon0844

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And the typical nonsense about not spending the money on HS2 and spending it elsewhere instead, as if the money is sitting in an account waiting to be spent.

The investors that would gladly put money into an infrastructure project suitable for the next 100 years aren't going to give money to fund more welfare payments, fund fare cuts or anything that the anti HS2 campaigners and think tanks can think of.

Has any paper said how many schools or hospitals could be built with the money?
 

The Decapod

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There's no reason why a government couldn't cancel HS2 and spend the money elsewhere (or simply save the money) - it's happened in the past - two recent examples are the Severn Barrage and the biometric ID cards fiasco.

We have to ask who wants HS2, apart from the government, companies likely involved in its construction and a proportion of railway enthusiasts.
 
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first_ade

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I do find it so amusing that whenever people are in the minority of public opinion they claim democracy is broken because it doesnt place them above the majority.

Quoted for truth!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although Churchill did say that the greatest argument against democracy was to spend 5 minutes talking to the average voter.


Quoted for greater truth!

Hs2 needs to get their comms organised and get some big hitters out to answer these views with some passion and sound bites.

The only thing that will push the cost of hs2 up is the legal bills of the endless enquiries, legal challenges etc
 

Ironside

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Quoted for truth!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Quoted for greater truth!

Hs2 needs to get their comms organised and get some big hitters out to answer these views with some passion and sound bites.

The only thing that will push the cost of hs2 up is the legal bills of the endless enquiries, legal challenges etc

I do wonder if the HS2 media campaign strategy is to let the anti campaign make as much noise as they like in the hope that the will either make themselves look stupid or run out of money.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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With much internal laughter, I read of the "think tank" and their media outage...or should that be outrage (:D)..on the HS2 project and its "associated costs".

Has this "think tank" ever made any financial armageddon statements on the cost of the Trident replacement project, as I feel that somewhat large sums are involved there. Whilst acceptance of large sums on projects in the South-East would be standard for that organisation, the very thought of "The North" having large projects and the associated costs is anathema to them.

Certain influential financial minds in past days have expanded much in the way of brainwashing (so they hope) those in "The North" to have belief that such novel modes of transport such as the Class 142 Pacers were "manna from heaven" and even had bus seating, so those unthinking "Northern" rail travellers would find the transition from bus travel to rail not to be such a shock to their mental sensabilities...<(.
 
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Metrailway

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AFAIK the IEA is very much against Trident. The cost of replacing Trident is estimated to be around £20 billion, HS2 is over £40 billion.

I guess it probably depends on your view on how well planned the route for phase 2 currently is, but I would say that the IEA is fair to state that there could be extra tunnels and other design changes "to buy off opposition" considering how large parts of phase 1 were put into tunnel after local opposition. One would hope that there would be improvements in local infrastructure to cope with additional traffic to/from HS2 stations especially at Toton.

Whether all these costs would make HS2 cost £80+ billion, I would have no idea!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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AFAIK the IEA is very much against Trident. The cost of replacing Trident is estimated to be around £20 billion, HS2 is over £40 billion.

I guess it probably depends on your view on how well planned the route for phase 2 currently is, but I would say that the IEA is fair to state that there could be extra tunnels and other design changes "to buy off opposition" considering how large parts of phase 1 were put into tunnel after local opposition. One would hope that there would be improvements in local infrastructure to cope with additional traffic to/from HS2 stations especially at Toton.

Whether all these costs would make HS2 cost £80+ billion, I would have no idea!

How fortunate for all of us that the IEA are not a democratically elected Government, as I could see a direct comparison to The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt who once they were democratically elected, set out on a hard-line fundamentalist agenda to which all were supposed to agree to.

Fundamentalism did not last too long in Britain after the later days of the Cromwellian Commonwealth.
 

Dave1987

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The antis have now said it will cost £80bn, £500m of council funding has already been spent opposing HS2 while they have been complaining they have no money to run local services. So so hypocritical!


HS2 'could cost taxpayer £80bn'

The government says HS2 will bring "billions of pounds worth of economic benefits"
Continue reading the main story
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The HS2 high-speed rail project could cost more than £80bn - almost double the current estimated cost of £42.6bn, a free-market think tank has said.

The Institute for Economic Affairs (IEA) expects lobbying by local councils for extra infrastructure and design changes will inflate the cost.

It wants HS2 to be scrapped and the money spent on other transport schemes.

The government said the "absolutely vital" scheme would give a "huge economic boost" for generations.

High-speed 2 (HS2) is intended to allow trains to run at 250 mph (400km/h) from London to Birmingham from 2026, with branches to Manchester and Leeds via Sheffield planned by 2032.

Opponents say the scheme would cause an unacceptable level of environmental damage, loss of homes and disruption to many communities.

Continue reading the main story

Start Quote

The evidence is now overwhelming that this will be unbelievably costly to the taxpayer while delivering incredibly poor value for money”

Report author Dr Richard Wellings
The IEA said in its report, to be released on Monday, that the cost of new trains would be £7.5bn.

And it said changes to the route "to keep voters on side" were likely to add another £30bn to the current estimated cost of £42.6bn.

That £30bn, it said, would come from areas including:

New road links, tram lines and road upgrades to cope with more pressure on infrastructure along the route
Extra tunnels and other design changes "to buy off opposition"
Regeneration schemes around new stations as well as in towns bypassed by the line
The report said HS2 "and the add-on transport schemes will be heavily loss-making in commercial terms - hence the requirement for massive taxpayer support".

Author Dr Richard Wellings said it was now "time the government abandoned its plans to proceed with HS2"

"The evidence is now overwhelming that this will be unbelievably costly to the taxpayer while delivering incredibly poor value for money," he said.

Continue reading the main story

Start Quote

Without HS2 the key rail routes connecting London, the Midlands and the North will be overwhelmed”

Department for Transport spokesman
"It's shameful that at a time of such financial difficulty for many families, the government is caving in to lobbying from businesses, local councils and self-interested politicians more concerned with winning votes than governing in the national interest."

The institute said the policy may have been partly followed to win votes in "response to poor electoral performance in the north of England in recent elections".

And it said money would be better spent on more "commercially viable" road, rail and transport projects "not requiring support from the taxpayer".

'Absolutely vital'
But Emma Antrobus, of the Greater Manchester Chamber of Commerce, said the UK was "suffering from decades of under-investment" in transport infrastructure.

She said building HS2 would improve connections between cities and "free up enormous amounts of capacity on the current rail network" for passengers and freight.


An artist's impression of the proposed HS2 station at Old Oak Common
She accepted the costs of HS2 had risen but suggested IEA's estimate was too high.

A Department for Transport spokesman said: "HS2 is absolutely vital for this country, providing a huge economic boost which will generate a return on investment that will continue paying back for generations to come.

"Without it, the key rail routes connecting London, the Midlands and the North will be overwhelmed.

"HS2 will provide the capacity needed in a way that will generate hundreds of thousands of jobs and billions of pounds worth of economic benefits.

"The government is committed to managing the cost within the budget we have set for the project and to securing maximum value for money for the taxpayer, while also ensuring that preparations are properly made for the most significant infrastructure investment the UK has seen in modern times."

Last month, the latest legal challenge to HS2 - from objectors including residents' groups and 15 councils along the route who had asked judges to order a further assessment of the scheme as a whole - was rejected by the Court of Appeal.

Judges dismissed all seven grounds of challenge against the London-Birmingham section of HS2, but a final appeal to the Supreme Court will be allowed.

That led transport minister Simon Burns to say Parliament was "the right place to debate the merits of HS2, not the law courts", adding the government would introduce "the hybrid bill for phase one before the year is out".

The government would continue with the "crucial business" of getting HS2 ready for construction in 2017, he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23744619
 
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Chris125

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HS2 nearly doubles in price to £80 billion:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23744619

This 'think tank' is calling for HS2 project to be scrapped - which is what I think will happen to the project anyway - so best do it now before big moneys starts to get wasted.

Have you actually looked at their report and who it's by? HS2 hasn't doubled in price, a rightwing think tank has simply shoehorned as many made up costs based on wild assumptions into the project as they can to generate a headline grabbing figure. Richard Wellings is rabidly right wing and doesn't support any public subsidy for rail and is hardly a fan of public transport, so no surprise he's trying to scupper HS2.

Chris
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Have you actually looked at their report and who it's by? HS2 hasn't doubled in price, a rightwing think tank has simply shoehorned as many made up costs based on wild assumptions into the project as they can to generate a headline grabbing figure. Richard Wellings is rabidly right wing and rails against pretty much any public funding of transport, it's hardly a surprise he's trying to scupper HS2.

Chris

Has John Redwood any connections with the IEA.....sounds to be right up his political street.
 
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It this report by the same Richard Wellings and IEA who as arguing that railways should be paved over and turned into roads in the late 80's early 90's. Forgive me if I take anything he says with a bucket load of salt. Sadly the anti-HS2 mob and right wing media have jumped on it and will try to present it as fact to gullible members who don't know any better.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It this report by the same Richard Wellings and IEA who as arguing that railways should be paved over and turned into roads in the late 80's early 90's. Forgive me if I take anything he says with a bucket load of salt. Sadly the anti-HS2 mob and right wing media have jumped on it and will try to present it as fact to gullible members who don't know any better.

Come what may, this particular item has had the maximum possible media coverage...<(
 

first_ade

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Come what may, this particular item has had the maximum possible media coverage...<(

And mostly on the side of the anti HS2 folk. Any news report should at least quote the report as being produced by "the rabidly right wing and anti railway think tank..." No surprises that they are against hs2 then?
 

The Decapod

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And mostly on the side of the anti HS2 folk. Any news report should at least quote the report as being produced by "the rabidly right wing and anti railway think tank..." No surprises that they are against hs2 then?

Be that as it may, as slightly left-of-centre railway enthusiast, I still think they're right on HS2. It has every hallmark of a white elephant project, and in my mind a sacrificial one at that. HS2 is partly there as political 'ballast', able to be dumped at a future date either to buy popularity with voters or to save money.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Be that as it may, as slightly left-of-centre railway enthusiast, I still think they're right on HS2. It has every hallmark of a white elephant project, and in my mind a sacrificial one at that. HS2 is partly there as political 'ballast', to be dumped at a future date either to buy popularity with voters or to save money (which was probably never intended to be spent in the first place).

Our politicians not totally sincere.....Well, I never, what is the world coming to...:roll:
 

Dave1987

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Be that as it may, as slightly left-of-centre railway enthusiast, I still think they're right on HS2. It has every hallmark of a white elephant project, and in my mind a sacrificial one at that. HS2 is partly there as political 'ballast', able to be dumped at a future date either to buy popularity with voters or to save money.

"White elephant". Can you please provide some substance to why it will be? Or are you just jumping on the bandwagon. HS2 is badly needed. The people who say "upgrade why we already have" are not taking into account that it cost £10bn to upgrade the WCML and caused major disruption for which people moaned constantly. It seems a lot of people in this country are just opposed to anything that won't directly benefit them. HS2 will bring a wealth of benefits to this country just like it has done in Taiwan.
 
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