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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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Rugd1022

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I'm not doubting you, honestly! I'm referring to HSTEd's mystical ECP system that promises to instantaneously apply the brakes throughout the train, whilst doubting that it's a realistic possibility ;) .

My employer keeps threatening to release me for a cab ride through our patch one day (which we're supposed to have before passing out for a location!), but no doubt the fact that us mere signalmen aren't considered worthy of PTS would mean that we'd be limited to a passenger train formed of a DMU anyway, such is the way of the modern railway.

Fair doos, no offence taken at all ;) HSTEd's mystical ECP wouldn't really help with freight, you don't want the brakes applying 'instantly', (at worst) you'd end up in a heap, or (at best) constantly be delaying following traffic while making several standing starts in a row! The current air braking system works perfectly well, it's set up so as to give the smoothest possible application in the available signal spacings we encounter. Although it often seems that some folk on here won't have it, braking is still a 'fine art' which takes practice and very good judgement in all kinds of conditions. Knowing when to brake is one thing, as is knowing when to release the brake to give smooth running and keep the momentum up between stopping passenger trains or recovering from speed restrictions, aided by good route knowledge with a keen eye being kept on the gradients which can work both for and against you.

Just realised how far we're veering off topic...time for a brew! ;)
 
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edwin_m

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Post deleted - someone already said it. Can someone make the page numbers more prominent so people like me realise there's another page I haven't read yet?
 
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People keep mentioning business cases. I would like to point out the motorway network does noy have a good business case at all... Yet I dont here anyone asking to close them.

Yet when someone mentions a line to re-open, your stock response is "no business case". Pot, kettle, black...
 

JohnB57

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People keep mentioning business cases. I would like to point out the motorway network does noy have a good business case at all... Yet I dont here anyone asking to close them.

Yet when someone mentions a line to re-open, your stock response is "no business case". Pot, kettle, black...
I'm amazed you dignified his post by responding to it. He's clearly so blinkered that he can't see the fact that everything depends on an effective road network - even getting to the railway station or transporting goods from freight depots and container terminals. Without motorways and supporting major roads, people wouldn't be able to get to work and earn money to buy things, which wouldn't be in the shops anyway. And the tax and duty revenue from road transport is vast.

I do worry that many unquestioning supporters of railways simply cannot see the big picture. I'm afraid that however important railways are - and they are extremely important - they are subsidiary to roads.
 

HSTEd

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Fair doos, no offence taken at all ;) HSTEd's mystical ECP wouldn't really help with freight, you don't want the brakes applying 'instantly', (at worst) you'd end up in a heap, or (at best) constantly be delaying following traffic while making several standing starts in a row!

You misunderstand, you set 10% brake force and you get 10% of the rated brake force immediately.
You set 1% brake force and you get 1% brake force
You can alter the brake force at any time and not have to wait for a several hundred metre pipe to alter its pressure.
You can even make vehicle number 100 in the train brake a completely different amount if you want for whatever reason, and you can receive feedback as to the condition of the brakes in any vehicle on the fly.

The current air braking system works perfectly well, it's set up so as to give the smoothest possible application in the available signal spacings we encounter.

So having the braking in the last wagon applying several seconds after the brakes in the locomotive is a good idea? Or the brakes in the last wagon releasing several seconds after the brakes in the locomotive? Or the brake force not automatically altering based on actual vehicle weight at the time of the braking or to account for any problems with the brakes that might alter its effective braking effort.

This sort of thing snatches couplings and risks derailments from wagons ramming each other hard during severe braking.


Actual Federal Railroad Administration figures for operating railroads in North America and South Africa that are using ECP technology show reductions in coupling breaks, massive reduction in stopping distances, reduction in brake wear, reduction in the incidence of wheel-flats and reductions in fuel consumption.

Oh and the same connectors that carry all these brake signals and power for the electronic equipment can carry signals for hard-line based Locotrol type systems. In other words, you get multiple working capability through any freight train.

This system is in use in several places around the world today, it is far from 'mythical'

Twelve thousand feet...? I think you've made a typo there HSTEd!

Welcome to North America.

I can assure you from doing the job myself that a light engine stops in a lot shorter distance than the two to three thousand ton freight trains I drive day in, day out.

Yes, because you have inefficient braking systems that cannot develop the maximum available brake force to avoid sliding throughout the train.
The laws of physics dictate the stopping distances for a certain set of conditions, to a large extent they do not care how your train weight is distributed.
Maximum possible brake force is determined by axle weight, which is determined by vehicle weight.
It doesn't care if your weight is made up of locomotive or stone.

(20,000t 6,000ft long BNSF Taconite trains fitted with ECP brakes have been demonstrated stopping in 550m from ~40mph - which while not as fast as a light locomotive is still very very impressive considering that was not an emergency brake application - for reference this complies with the relevant Railway Group Standards.)

(Most of our current stone trains are just over a thousand feet in length by the way).

Which is why railfreight in the UK is dying (or would without rather large subsidies).
The trains are all too short.
 
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The Ham

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I do worry that many unquestioning supporters of railways simply cannot see the big picture. I'm afraid that however important railways are - and they are extremely important - they are subsidiary to roads.

Quite, even if you tried to do away with all motor vhhicles (which would be very difficult, if not impossable) there would still be a need for roads, if for no other reason that for people to walk and cycle on.
 

AndyLandy

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I'm amazed you dignified his post by responding to it. He's clearly so blinkered that he can't see the fact that everything depends on an effective road network - even getting to the railway station or transporting goods from freight depots and container terminals. Without motorways and supporting major roads, people wouldn't be able to get to work and earn money to buy things, which wouldn't be in the shops anyway. And the tax and duty revenue from road transport is vast.

That's something of a straw man. There's a huge gulf between the business case for motorways, and the business case for every other road in the country! People could still get to work and the shops using A-roads.
 

HSTEd

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Quite, even if you tried to do away with all motor vhhicles (which would be very difficult, if not impossable) there would still be a need for roads, if for no other reason that for people to walk and cycle on.

Well cycling optimised roads would likely be far more bendy and optimised for minimum gradients rather than simply going over hills with gentle curves.
You are not speed limited you are power limited on a bike.
 

YorkshireBear

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Yet when someone mentions a line to re-open, your stock response is "no business case". Pot, kettle, black...

My stock response is usually rolling stock actually. And when I do mention business case that is very often when discussing lines with a BCR of less than 0.4 very different situation. And usually fantasy lines!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm amazed you dignified his post by responding to it. He's clearly so blinkered that he can't see the fact that everything depends on an effective road network - even getting to the railway station or transporting goods from freight depots and container terminals. Without motorways and supporting major roads, people wouldn't be able to get to work and earn money to buy things, which wouldn't be in the shops anyway. And the tax and duty revenue from road transport is vast.

I do worry that many unquestioning supporters of railways simply cannot see the big picture. I'm afraid that however important railways are - and they are extremely important - they are subsidiary to roads.

And yet you gave me a response.
Only mentioned motorway network read it properly. And I am fully aware of how important the motorway network is to this country youve missed my point entirely. Read all my posts regarding meadowhall and toton and how access into regional trunk road network is essential for how they will suceed.
The motorway network is infrastructure of national importance. As will HS2. I am pointing out that people should look at HS2 the same way allowibg a marginal business case due to the large benefits. I am only pointing out the same approach some people take on here with HS2 applied to the road network would leave us with little or no motorways. Not blinkered aupport for rail as you say but actually a great believer in intergrating the two properly.
 

Ships

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I'm not doubting you, honestly! I'm referring to HSTEd's mystical ECP system that promises to instantaneously apply the brakes throughout the train, whilst doubting that it's a realistic possibility ;) .

My employer keeps threatening to release me for a cab ride through our patch one day (which we're supposed to have before passing out for a location!), but no doubt the fact that us mere signalmen aren't considered worthy of PTS would mean that we'd be limited to a passenger train formed of a DMU anyway, such is the way of the modern railway.

Could you not get a TVP?
 

Tomnick

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Track visitor permit? I don't know exactly what they permit, but I don't think they're applicable here.
 

Rugd1022

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You misunderstand,

With respect, no, I do not. As stated previously, I do this for a living and know what I'm talking about.

Braking of freight trains has as much to do with 'feel' (for want of a better word) than the facts and figures you mention in your posts. I could have the same loco and set of wagons five days a week, but each time I apply the brake it can feel slightly different depending on prevailing conditions, there may be no apparent reason for it but that's the way it is. Unless you've actually done it day in, day out you'll never accept what I've been trying to say. I suspect we could round and round with this all day until you have the last word or come back with more facts and figures which sound as though they're lifted from the internet or a manual.... if you care to get yourself to Mountsorrel Sidings at around 03.00hrs tomorrow morning, I'll gladly try to explain face to face what I'm trying to convey on here... ;)

Time for a brew!
 

Manchester77

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http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=105926682&postcount=26059

HS2's station at Manchester Piccadilly.

Hopefully they'll change the design of the roof of the HS2 station. It'd be nice if they could have it as a kind of curve so that its similar to the existing station because I know it will be 'stuck onto the side of the old station' but it'd be nice if it wants just a big rectangle on the side. The design of the roof of Waterloo International would be more suited for this in my opinion.
 

HSTEd

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With respect, no, I do not. As stated previously, I do this for a living and know what I'm talking about.

Braking of freight trains has as much to do with 'feel' (for want of a better word) than the facts and figures you mention in your posts. I could have the same loco and set of wagons five days a week, but each time I apply the brake it can feel slightly different depending on prevailing conditions, there may be no apparent reason for it but that's the way it is. Unless you've actually done it day in, day out you'll never accept what I've been trying to say. I suspect we could round and round with this all day until you have the last word or come back with more facts and figures which sound as though they're lifted from the internet or a manual.... if you care to get yourself to Mountsorrel Sidings at around 03.00hrs tomorrow morning, I'll gladly try to explain face to face what I'm trying to convey on here... ;)

Time for a brew!

To avoid going around in circles which always annoy me, I will just leave you some rather heavy reading if you fancy it.
The figures seem to speak for themselves.

Essentially, it turns the freight train into a multiple unit and the driver essentially selects a decelleration to apply rather than the raw brake force.
The performance reduces braking distances by about 40% on level track and up to 70% on descending gradients.

And it apparently reduces crew fatigue to a rather large extent.
 

brianthegiant

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Guys,

I think this discussion of braking systems might work better as a new thread in traction & rolling stock?
thanks!
 

NJTom

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I may have missed something, but in none of the so-called business plans for HS2 does it account for the damage HS2 will do to the 1st Class market on the WCML, which will surely drastically change virgin's business model.

Any thoughts?
 

YorkshireBear

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I may have missed something, but in none of the so-called business plans for HS2 does it account for the damage HS2 will do to the 1st Class market on the WCML, which will surely drastically change virgin's business model.

Any thoughts?

It won't change Virgins business model at all. Their franchise ends in 2015(i think) and the new franchise from that ends as HS2 is opened with another new franchise then let once HS2 is opened which will know from the start about this and will have a different business model and service pattern to account for changes from HS2. Does that answer your question ( i think that is what you were getting at :) ) ?
 

Ironside

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As long as the price remains equal between high speed and classic most people are going to use high speed rail if there journey is on the high speed route.

It would be interesting to consider if the future operators of the classic lines will even compete for customers that could use a direct high speed line. I guess when a customer has the choice between a high speed train and then a change onto a classic train or a direct classic train their will be more room for competition.
 

swt_passenger

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http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...oss-rail-network-Network-Rail-study-1dfe.aspx

Network rail link to their report on integrating network and benefits to local rail lines. Appendix 1 makes interesting reading.

Quite a few interesting points in there, but I bet hardly anyone reads it, and the guesswork and conjecture will carry on regardless... :D

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I may have missed something, but in none of the so-called business plans for HS2 does it account for the damage HS2 will do to the 1st Class market on the WCML, which will surely drastically change virgin's business model.

The next but one WCML franchise spec will be altered as necessary to account for the DfT's service level commitment on the WCML being changed.

Virgin (or their successor franchisee - First Group perhaps?) will have to run whatever they are then required to do, and cut their cloth accordingly. No TOC's 'business model' will ever assume that a franchise will roll over into a replacement on the same terms.
 
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LexyBoy

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I wouldn't be surprised if ICWC and LM franchises were merged should HS2 be built. There's no reason a significant First Class offering wouldn't remain on the "IC type" services, which would still be providing the fast services for the likes of MK, Northampton, Coventry, and Wolverhampton, as well as possibly competing (with higher comfort or lower fares) on longer journeys, as Chiltern does now. Any legacy of Virgin will be long gone by then - the Pendolini will likely be scrapped by the time HS2 is operation if not already re-configured internally.
 

swt_passenger

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If they award the HS2 operating contract to someone else then Virgin will probably throw their toys out the pram anyway. It won't suit their image to be one of the 'also rans' operating an ordinary franchise, so they'll probably not bid for the WCML at all...
 

D6975

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As long as the price remains equal between high speed and classic most people are going to use high speed rail if there journey is on the high speed route.

It would be interesting to consider if the future operators of the classic lines will even compete for customers that could use a direct high speed line. I guess when a customer has the choice between a high speed train and then a change onto a classic train or a direct classic train their will be more room for competition.

If HS1 is anything to go by, the fares won't be the same. Ashford-London single is about 50% more to StP than to the 'old' SR terminii.
 

transmanche

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YorkshireBear

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I like some of the ideas suggested, such as Leeds to Cambridge/Stansted services. Using the freed-up capacity to provide better/faster services cross-country services, rather than just new services to/from London.

It certainly fills me with a little more confidence that proper planning is being put in for the post HS2 network. Cross country will increase journeys IMHO as people do not like changing!
 

The Ham

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I like some of the ideas suggested, such as Leeds to Cambridge/Stansted services. Using the freed-up capacity to provide better/faster services cross-country services, rather than just new services to/from London.

I quite liked the South Coast to Manchester via Milton Keynes service, although I assumed that there could well be the need to alternate this with the existing route, unless more capacity over the southern section of the route (Oxford-South Coast) could be created to run extra services.
 

edwin_m

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There are some good ideas in that document, but at the current stage of planning it's not much more than a wishlist - if all the suggestions were implemented then some parts of the network that are close to capacity today would have even more trains!

I think it's also starting to highlight the challenge on the Midland Main Line, where Leicester needs at least as many fast services as now because it doesn't benefit from HS2, but the double track to the south will struggle to take the suggested extra slower services.
 
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