High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[mister-sparky]

Until about a week ago HS2 was going to run above ground on this section, replacing the two Network Rail tracks that run alongside the north side of the LU Central Line. Now it will be in tunnel instead.

but won't that push the costs even higher? how are they going to find the extra millions/billions required to tunnel it?!

 

[LE Greys]

but won't that push the costs even higher? how are they going to find the extra millions/billions required to tunnel it?!

According to the Railway Magazine article, it's going to be cheaper and quicker - possibly because they won't have to pay out so much compensation.

 

[John07]

but won't that push the costs even higher? how are they going to find the extra millions/billions required to tunnel it?!

There are millions included in the budget to cover such issues. Never mind the 44% optimism bias added after the risk.

 

[Chris125]

but won't that push the costs even higher? how are they going to find the extra millions/billions required to tunnel it?!

According to HS2 Ltd it is cost neutral and quicker - rather than a completely new tunnel it's actually just extending one previously announced under West Ruislip which should produce some economies of scale. It also avoids the cost, risk and disruption of rebuilding numerous bridges including those carrying the Hangar Lane Gyratory along with a sizeable compensation bill.

Chris

 

[edwin_m]

Is it possible to get updated figures on the length of above ground trackwork versus the length of buried trackwork?

I remember people claiming it was 60% in tunnel, with the latest changes I wonder if that has increased significantly?

Certainly not 60% in tunnel, probably the statement was 60% in either tunnel or cutting.

I haven't seen a more recent figure but all the latest plans and profiles are on the DfT website if you fancy working it out yourself!

 

[snowball]

If I remember correctly the proportion of tunnelling on the HS1 route kept increasing throughout the planning as one group of objectors after another was assuaged. Presumably the HS2 planners are working on the assumption that something similar will happen.

 

[philjo]

2 Bills for HS2 were included in today's Queen's Speech :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22436103

High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill

This bill will give parliamentary authorisation for the government to spend the money necessary to build the new rail link between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. It will allow the government to pay for the preparatory work needed before construction begins, for example ecological surveys and ground investigations. The government needs to pass this before it can pass the High Speed Two Hybrid Bill. This bill will apply to England, Scotland and Wales.

High Speed Two Hybrid Bill

This bill will give the government the legal power to compulsorily buy the land needed to construct the proposed high speed rail line linking Britain's biggest cities. Those affected by the bill will have the opportunity to petition Parliament and have their case heard by the bill select committee. It will apply to England, Scotland and Wales.

 

[Ironside]

2 Bills for HS2 were included in today's Queen's Speech :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22436103

Great news, glad they are starting to make some real progress.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On Any Questions (R4) this week at Keele University, Patrick MacLoughlin, no less, said he was considering going out to consultation on the case for an extra HS2 station near Stoke.

On the current route, the nearest HS2 comes to Stoke/Newcastle is about 7-10 miles away in the hills around Whitmore near the current WCML.
Don't see it working myself.

 

[KaPOWitsCHRIS]

I like the concept of having a super fast train line to keep up with other countries'. I'm just disappointed that it bypasses Coventry

 

[snowball]

On Any Questions (R4) this week at Keele University, Patrick MacLoughlin, no less, said he was considering going out to consultation on the case for an extra HS2 station near Stoke.

On the current route, the nearest HS2 comes to Stoke/Newcastle is about 7-10 miles away in the hills around Whitmore near the current WCML.
Don't see it working myself.

There is a campaign to have underground platforms on HS2 under Crewe station. He may have been referring to that, but described it as "near Stoke" because of where he was.

 

[edwin_m]

The current proposal is for HS2 trains for Liverpool and elsewhere to leave HS2 just south of Crewe and stop at the existing station, which would still have two (or maybe more by then?) trains to Stoke every hour.

Pete Waterman is leading a campaign to move Crewe station to Basford Hall where there could be HS2 platforms south of the tunnel. This would need reinstatement of the lifted curve from the Kidsgrove line, and probably some changes to the LNWR facility that separates it from the main lines.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, relocating Crewe station is something that Network Rail had previously considered, the town would suffer from having an out of town station (remember it grew up around the railway) but it would speed up the existing line.

 

[snowball]

Pete Waterman is leading a campaign to move Crewe station to Basford Hall where there could be HS2 platforms south of the tunnel.

Sorry, that must be the one I was thinking of.

 

[WatcherZero]

Looks like Governments backing down on running through the proposed rail yard at East Midlands Airport. They will now consult on both the original option and a variation running under the airport with a 2.9km tunnel (1km extension from original).

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...eloper-create-over-7000-jobs-in-east-midlands

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The National Audit Office appears now to say that HS2 will have a £3 billion shortfall and have uncertain benefits from what the lead item on the BBC breakfast news has just purported to state.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The National Audit Office appears now to say that HS2 will have a £3 billion shortfall and have uncertain benefits from what the lead item on the BBC breakfast news has just purported to state.

What do the NAO know about trains?
They are there to audit government spend (after they have spent it), not stop projects.
Pity the BBC couldn't find any decent graphics (all the trains were running on the right...).
And they helpfully dubbed a loud diesel engine noise on it just to make it even more annoying...

 

[HSTEd]

The National Audit Office appears now to say that HS2 will have a £3 billion shortfall and have uncertain benefits from what the lead item on the BBC breakfast news has just purported to state.

Depending on how you account for things, you could probably generate differences in benefits amounting to tens of billions of pounds over the "life" of the project.

For instance, how long is the railway supposed to be amortising over? 30 years? 50 years? 150 years? (How old the oldest continually used railway alignment now?)

 

[Metrailway]

The National Audit Office appears now to say that HS2 will have a £3 billion shortfall and have uncertain benefits from what the lead item on the BBC breakfast news has just purported to state.

Here is the BBC News web article:

HS2 rail benefits to economy 'unclear', says National Audit Office

The benefits of the HS2 high speed rail project on the economy are unclear, the National Audit Office (NAO) has warned.

The NAO said in a report that it had "reservations" about how the London-to-Birmingham link would deliver growth, adding that the project had an estimated £3.3bn funding gap.

But Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said the NAO's conclusions were based on old data.

Labour said the report was a "worrying wake-up call" for the government.

The NAO said it had "reservations about the business case" and said the timetable for the planning phase of the project - with work due to start in 2016-17 - was "challenging".

The report, published on Thursday, said: "In particular, in presenting its case for investment in the project, the Department of Transport (DfT) has poorly articulated the strategic need for a transformation in rail capacity and how High Speed 2 will help generate regional economic growth."

The department's "methodology for appraising the project puts a high emphasis on journey-time savings, from faster and more reliable journeys, but the relationship between these savings and the strategic reasons for doing the project, such as rebalancing regional economies, is unclear."

(Read More)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Labour said it was a wake up call for the government??? You mean progressing with your exact idea. Morons of the highest idea, i am sick of politicians using railways for political gain.

You could easily account 1000 different ways, funny the BBC only pick the negative ones.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Here is the BBC News web article:

Thanks for that link, as I had only heard this first item on the news this morning (this being my normal method of news information) when I made my posting and had "breakfast matters" then solely on my mind, rather than looking for any such website material.

 

[jon0844]

Labour said it was a wake up call for the government??? You mean progressing with your exact idea. Morons of the highest idea, i am sick of politicians using railways for political gain.

You could easily account 1000 different ways, funny the BBC only pick the negative ones.

I know. I am always amazed how Labour is so willing to attack ideas that IT came up with. I know all politicians do this, but I do actually seem to recall that in the past, the Tories in opposition did appear to support a lot of what Labour planned, and said so.

It's as if the current Labour government has been told to attack, attack, attack regardless and don't even know when they're making themselves look stupid.

I can only conclude that Labour knows the Tories are being seen as evil for imposing cuts and making hard decisions, so it's very easy to keep bashing to ensure people to continue to believe the Tories are the 'Nasty Party' and now totally unable to get anything right.

Labour is never asked by sections of the press 'well what would you do?' and can therefore get away with it easily. If anyone said to them 'But wasn't HS2 your idea? What would you have done differently? How would you have financed it?' then we might see some more balanced reporting.

It's also frustrating that you have the anti-HS2 organisation coming in to support these findings, but only the Government to defend it. There are lots of people that can see the benefits of a new railway (and not just for higher speed trains as all the stories keep referring to, as if it's just some fancy vanity project for the rich) but their voices are not being heard. Is it because there's no recognised spokesperson that the BBC can interview, or that the BBC isn't even looking?

The BBC finished off by showing the estimated time savings, but HS2 isn't just about high-speed.. it's about capacity. Even if the trains took the same amount of time, any new line increases capacity and has big benefits to those that don't get new stations. But, when is this ever mentioned away from forums like this?

 

[JohnB57]

What do the NAO know about trains?
They are there to audit government spend (after they have spent it), not stop projects.

You don't need to be able to lay an egg to tell a good one from a bad one.

From the NAO website...

The National Audit Office scrutinises public spending on behalf of Parliament.

I believe that infers scrutiny before, during and after the event.

 

[jon0844]

I'd say that checking any Government spending after the event will invariably show that the money was not spent well! So, it's quite easy to just guess in advance that it won't.

 

[YorkshireBear]

?

The BBC finished off by showing the estimated time savings, but HS2 isn't just about high-speed.. it's about capacity. Even if the trains took the same amount of time, any new line increases capacity and has big benefits to those that don't get new stations. But, when is this ever mentioned away from forums like this?

Exactly, just had a good rant at people on the Look North facebook page who say who needs to get to London quicker. So i then explained about freight trains and taking lorries off roads improving road safety... theres many other ways to do it too.

 

[NSEFAN]

It's also frustrating that you have the anti-HS2 organisation coming in to support these findings, but only the Government to defend it. There are lots of people that can see the benefits of a new railway (and not just for higher speed trains as all the stories keep referring to, as if it's just some fancy vanity project for the rich) but their voices are not being heard. Is it because there's no recognised spokesperson that the BBC can interview, or that the BBC isn't even looking?

The BBC finished off by showing the estimated time savings, but HS2 isn't just about high-speed.. it's about capacity. Even if the trains took the same amount of time, any new line increases capacity and has big benefits to those that don't get new stations. But, when is this ever mentioned away from forums like this?

I find that HS2 is portrayed as a David Vs Goliath situation. Everyone loves an underdog and that's how things like this get reported. It was the same during the franchising chaos; the fiasco was portrayed as this great vendetta against an innocent company, and huge numbers of people stepped in to support Branson without really knowing what was going on.

As they say, never let facts get in the way of a good story. The worst thing about this is that even the BBC is using these tactics; you would have expected them to at least try to provide the whole picture.

 

[jon0844]

There are laws about impartiality for covering things like elections, but it does appear you can add bias to other stories. I don't buy into the view that the BBC itself is biased, but certainly you do get the feeling that you are reading the opinion of the writers themselves.

I wonder how they would report things if HS2 was going to Manchester first (or at the same time as Birmingham), with a branch off to Media City?

Or indeed if HS2 marketed the line as being Birmingham to London, Manchester to London instead of the other way around? Suddenly it might appear that this line is for these people to get to London rather than the other way around - especially the many London/suburb based reporters who relocated and might quite like the ability to get down to London to see old friends and family etc.

Or even that someone could come out and explain that HS2 wouldn't be an overpriced service for rich bankers and politicians, with low-cost advance-style tickets as there are now, or even that with so much more capacity, it might even result in some even cheaper tickets at times. Perhaps a website to counter every allegation and myth that can then be mentioned in future articles?

It's also quite surprising that the BBC isn't looking at HS2 in a positive light and many people pointing out that some rather rich and influential people are trying to stop it - at the expense of the majority. Or indeed that some people aiming to delay HS2 aren't necessarily against it, but want to ensure that they can get the scheme adjusted or secure more compensation (and then suddenly change their mind).

Finally, let me add that I am not saying we mustn't question the cost, even the route and any impact to local areas - by swinging the other way and not giving those with concerns their views.. but it's far too one sided and anyone would think Labour actually wants to help HS2 fail, perhaps so it can reinstate and force it through should it get back into power in 2015.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's as if the current Labour government has been told to attack, attack, attack regardless and don't even know when they're making themselves look stupid.

Current Labour Government....hock:.....Has "Rip van Winkle" syndrome crept up unawares upon me ?

 

[gordonthemoron]

you could argue that HS2 is actually 3 new lines to Birmingham

 

[jon0844]

Current Labour Government....hock:.....Has "Rip van Winkle" syndrome crept up unawares upon me ?

Didn't you notice when they took back power earlier today, while Mr Cameron was away and Clegg was distracted during PMQ's?

I did of course mean party, so no need to panic - although I do think they'll stand a good chance of getting back into power in 2015 on the promise of starting to spend money again and stopping the cuts. (Then doing nothing of the sort).