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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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HSTEd

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It is shorter but will be more expensive as you cannot defray the cost of 50-60 miles of it as being required to serve Newcastle.

You can get a lot of money for that much track.
 
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nerd

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Is there a place where I can find a justification for this "design principle" ?.

You need to look at the papers on the HS2 Ltd site; but effectively the matter is illustrated in specific terms in the discussions around Meadowhall v Central Sheffield. Going through the middle of a conurbation necessarily imposes a time penalty, and the HS2 Ltd business model is predicated on keeping its trains running at the maximum speed for as much as possible of their journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is shorter but will be more expensive as you cannot defray the cost of 50-60 miles of it as being required to serve Newcastle.

You can get a lot of money for that much track.

Which is why, I expect, Newcastle won't be getting a full captive service in HS2 Phase 3; only an upgraded classic service.

From the perspective of the Treasury, the alternative - running the Scots services up the east side and upgrading the WCML through Cumbria - would likely be even more expensive.
 

HSTEd

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Why would you "upgrade" the WCML through Cumbria?

There is nothing there to justify the upgraded service.
 

JohnCarlson

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I think the furthest captive stock will get is York. HS2 will then reach Scotland through Newcastle but by a series of new lines an upgrades not a fully new line. If a new HS2 line were through the center of the country via Harrogate and Haltwistle it would serve few places on the way but it would take many passengers from the existing lines.

However those lines would still have to be operated and paid for and the existing service north of York would not be enhanced which would be politically difficult or it would have to be enhanced at extra cost.

There is the potential for blackmail by either the Scottish or English government by not building their half. What use would a HS line be if it ran to the English /Scottish broader an the other half were not built.

John
 
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nerd

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Why would you "upgrade" the WCML through Cumbria?

There is nothing there to justify the upgraded service.

The 2013 command paper specifically identfies HS2 Phase 3 as involving a mixture of new captive lines and 'upgraded' classic lines. I have presumed (though this is purely guesswork) that they envisage there being a new captive line on one side of England, and an upgraded classic line on the other.

As to why the Cumbria upgrade; the Scots are insistent that a major element in the benefit from HSR (from their perspective) will be in improving capacity and speed for freight between Scotland and England. They see that as being achieved both by removing express passenger paths from the classic lines, onto HSR, and by upgrading those classic Scotland/England lines that still carry express passenger traffic.

This is one key factor inclining the Scots to favour HSR through Scotland running south from Carstairs, rather than east towards Coldstream; there is much more Scotland/England freight demand along the WCML route. If the HSR line south of Lockerbie then swings east through Haltwhistle toward Newcasle, then the WCML though Cumbria will need upgrading to carry the extra volumes of freight on the classic WCML Scots line.

As I understand it, the Haltwhistle option is the one favoured by Glasgow City Council; they see eventual demand for direct services to Europe (with a second English east coast HSR line to carry it); and don't want to miss out on that. But they have stressed that their support for this option is conditional on the WCML being upgraded to 140mph standard throughout at the same time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the furthest captive stock will get is York. HS2 will then reach Scotland through Newcastle but by a series of new lines an upgrades not a fully new line. If a new HS2 line were through the center of the country via Harrogate and Haltwistle it would serve few places on the way but it would take many passengers from the existing lines.


There are no plans for a captive service to York; and no conceivable need for it. The Church Fenton lilnk is designed with a 140mph limit entirely on the assumption that it will only be used by classic-compatible stock.

Equally, it is fundamental that captive services do not (for the most part) 'serve places along the way'; They will run end-to-end.

HS2 Ltd fundamentally disagree with the 'Italian' model of a linear HSR route with 2-4 trains per hour stopping at all major cities along the way; Turin, Milan, Bologna, Rome, Naples. Instead they are constructing the system as a 'French' radial system, with London in the middle and non-stop services to each of (around 10) destinations, running mostly one or two paths to each per hour. The fact that in infrastructure terms, most of these radial paths share the same tracks south of Brum makes no difference to the general principle.

Underlying this is a fundamental business model; HSR provides vastly greater seating capacity than classic trains, but will only be profitable if those seats are filled. On classic services this is done by stopping at intermediate stations. But that means slowing down to stop; which adds to operational costs. The alternative is to drop fares far below current levels; and fill the trains with new end-to-end business (on the example of Easyjet/Ryanair).

Basic to this is the realisation that, on an entirely new railway with new track and minimal interaction with the classic system, unit costs per seat mile for end-to-end riunning should be around a third of those on the existing classic system. So HSR ought to be able to charge fares at around half the rates per mile of those on the classic system for end-to-end services; and if they can fill their trains that way, will still make massive profits.

Which does though, creaste a problem for Government funding of the rest of the rail system. It is bad enough that taxpayers in Bristol are having to ppay for the construction of HS2; but if the result is that passengers from Manchester are able to get to London both faster and cheaper, there may weill be pressure for substantially reduced fares throughout.
 
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JohnCarlson

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T



There are no plans for a captive service to York; and no conceivable need for it. The Church Fenton lilnk is designed with a 140mph limit entirely on the assumption that it will only be used by classic-compatible stock.

Equally, it is fundamental that captive services do not (for the most part) 'serve places along the way'; They will run end-to-end.

HS2 Ltd fundamentally disagree with the 'Italian' model of a linear HSR route with 2-4 trains per hour stopping at all major cities along the way; Turin, Milan, Bologna, Rome, Naples. Instead they are constructing the system as a 'French' radial system, with London in the middle and non-stop services to each of (around 10) destinations, running mostly one or two paths to each per hour. The fact that in infrastructure terms, most of these radial paths share the same tracks south of Brum makes no difference to the general principle.

Underlying this is a fundamental business model; HSR provides vastly greater seating capacity than classic trains, but will only be profitable if those seats are filled. On classic services this is done by stopping at intermediate stations. But that means slowing down to stop; which adds to operational costs. The alternative is to drop fares far below current levels; and fill the trains with new end-to-end business (on the example of Easyjet/Ryanair).

Basic to this is the realisation that, on an entirely new railway with new track and minimal interaction with the classic system, unit costs per seat mile for end-to-end riunning should be around a third of those on the existing classic system. So HSR ought to be able to charge fares at around half the rates per mile of those on the classic system for end-to-end services; and if they can fill their trains that way, will still make massive profits.

Which does though, creaste a problem for Government funding of the rest of the rail system. It is bad enough that taxpayers in Bristol are having to ppay for the construction of HS2; but if the result is that passengers from Manchester are able to get to London both faster and cheaper, there may weill be pressure for substantially reduced fares throughout.

Jut to be clear I meant York as the furthest practical limit of construction, not that I was advocating going there with the captive stock. The King Edward Bridge and its associated bends would rule out captive stock getting up to Newcastle in my opinion.

I am very in favor of the "pile it high, sell it cheap" approach to HS2 which I think is what you are suggesting. Of course an easy way of evening out fairs would be to just have one organization running the whole rail system...
 

nerd

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Jut to be clear I meant York as the furthest practical limit of construction, not that I was advocating going there with the captive stock. The King Edward Bridge and its associated bends would rule out captive stock getting up to Newcastle in my opinion.

I am very in favor of the "pile it high, sell it cheap" approach to HS2 which I think is what you are suggesting. Of course an easy way of evening out fairs would be to just have one organization running the whole rail system...


sorry if I misrepresented you.

There is a fascinating article in this month's 'Todays Railways: Europe" on the French development of low-cost TGV. 'Pile it high, sell it cheap' describes it exactly. By fitting coupled units entirely with duplex stock, the French can get over 1,400 on each train. Fares are cut to below 90 euros standard, and as low as 20 euros advance - though you have to pay extra for a power socket by your seat; or to take more than one 'standard' bag on board.

But the basic dynamic of the business model is that train units will cover over 3,000 km a day on average. In English terms, this would imply that each train and crew would do five return trips from Manchester to Euston in a daily shift; where I suspect the current standard would be two.

I would guess that if you could travel off-peak from Manchester to Euston high-speed for £15-20 advance return, it would be easy to fill every train with end-to-end passengers.
 

HSTEd

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The 2013 command paper specifically identfies HS2 Phase 3 as involving a mixture of new captive lines and 'upgraded' classic lines. I have presumed (though this is purely guesswork) that they envisage there being a new captive line on one side of England, and an upgraded classic line on the other.

I will have to read this command paper.

This is one key factor inclining the Scots to favour HSR through Scotland running south from Carstairs, rather than east towards Coldstream; there is much more Scotland/England freight demand along the WCML route. If the HSR line south of Lockerbie then swings east through Haltwhistle toward Newcasle, then the WCML though Cumbria will need upgrading to carry the extra volumes of freight on the classic WCML Scots line.

As I understand it, the passenger services on the Northern section of the WCML at present are dominated by:

London to Glasgow/Edinburgh
Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh
Birmingham to Glasgow/Edinburgh
Random local trains south of Preston

Now, the first and third train services can certainly be transferred to High Speed rail no matter the route, indeed those are the primary services we are concerned with.
However, the second service can also be transferred to High Speed rail with either route choice, as it would be easily possible to route a classic compatible train over North TPE to Leeds and then have it (if an appropriate chord was put in place) run to the Central Belt via an Eastern HS route while still beating its current running time.

This means that the only trains left are a handful of short distance services that would never be transferable to High Speed rail in the first place. (Presumably an hourly train through to London would be retained stopping at all stations but that is about it).

Meanwhile, on the East there are numerous trains that a properly laid out High Speed route could take up if it went via the Eastern Route, but which would be impractical to take up via the Western Route.
You could transfer effectively all the XC services and all the London trains to the High Speed route, assuming that a north facing "slip" line could be provided at York and Newcastle, which should not break the bank.

In summary, routing the line via the East Coast reduces both the ECML and WCML to local stopping trains only, while the West Coast route only does this for the WCML, as the flows on the ECML that require long distance services cannot be served by a western high speed route.

As we are not capacity constrained the route that can generate the most spare capacity has to be the chosen one.

As I understand it, the Haltwhistle option is the one favoured by Glasgow City Council; they see eventual demand for direct services to Europe (with a second English east coast HSR line to carry it); and don't want to miss out on that. But they have stressed that their support for this option is conditional on the WCML being upgraded to 140mph standard throughout at the same time.

There will never be sufficient demand for a second high speed line, the capacity we can squeeze from one is just too large. (Even if we had multiple on route stations we can get 10-12tph from it easily).
Therefore it is effectively an either/or choice, we can't claim that the East Coast might get its route at a later date, since it will never be able to justify one.

There are no plans for a captive service to York; and no conceivable need for it. The Church Fenton lilnk is designed with a 140mph limit entirely on the assumption that it will only be used by classic-compatible stock.

Will it at least be built to the GC loading gauge?
That is going to come back to bite us if the penny pinchers only have it built to the classic compatible loading gauge.

Equally, it is fundamental that captive services do not (for the most part) 'serve places along the way'; They will run end-to-end.

Indeed, but this still requires bi-directional stations at secondary destinations.... otherwise how will the generate "end-to-end" services to other destinations north of them?

HS2 Ltd fundamentally disagree with the 'Italian' model of a linear HSR route with 2-4 trains per hour stopping at all major cities along the way; Turin, Milan, Bologna, Rome, Naples. Instead they are constructing the system as a 'French' radial system, with London in the middle and non-stop services to each of (around 10) destinations, running mostly one or two paths to each per hour. The fact that in infrastructure terms, most of these radial paths share the same tracks south of Brum makes no difference to the general principle.

Yes, they claim the capacity argument as the primary driving one for not having stopping trains on HS2 Phase 1... then ignore that the argument no longer exists north of the Birmingham delta junction.
They primarily appear concerned with not letting those annoying secondary train services onto their "premium" high speed line.

Underlying this is a fundamental business model; HSR provides vastly greater seating capacity than classic trains, but will only be profitable if those seats are filled. On classic services this is done by stopping at intermediate stations. But that means slowing down to stop; which adds to operational costs. The alternative is to drop fares far below current levels; and fill the trains with new end-to-end business (on the example of Easyjet/Ryanair).

Basic to this is the realisation that, on an entirely new railway with new track and minimal interaction with the classic system, unit costs per seat mile for end-to-end riunning should be around a third of those on the existing classic system. So HSR ought to be able to charge fares at around half the rates per mile of those on the classic system for end-to-end services; and if they can fill their trains that way, will still make massive profits.

Which does though, creaste a problem for Government funding of the rest of the rail system. It is bad enough that taxpayers in Bristol are having to ppay for the construction of HS2; but if the result is that passengers from Manchester are able to get to London both faster and cheaper, there may weill be pressure for substantially reduced fares throughout.

But HS2 Ltd/Government are making decisions that do not appear to gel with this assesment of a "pile em high, sell em cheap" railway.
They are apparently committing to purchasing single deck captive train-sets of 200m length.

If you are going to sell huge numbers of advanced fares then really you should attempt 400m double deck trainsets as standard. (See the proposed TGV Grande Capacité)

Additionally the problem could be solved by building the route to enable additional non London related traffic to be incorporated into it, but they do not appear to be doing this.
(The capacity argument on any Phase 3 route simply doesn't work, so the line should tend towards things like the Shinkansen or the "Italian" model)
 

nerd

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As I understand it, the passenger services on the Northern section of the WCML at present are dominated by:

London to Glasgow/Edinburgh
Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh
Birmingham to Glasgow/Edinburgh
Random local trains south of Preston

Now, the first and third train services can certainly be transferred to High Speed rail no matter the route, indeed those are the primary services we are concerned with.
However, the second service can also be transferred to High Speed rail with either route choice, as it would be easily possible to route a classic compatible train over North TPE to Leeds and then have it (if an appropriate chord was put in place) run to the Central Belt via an Eastern HS route while still beating its current running time.

The Glasgow paper assumed that the Manchester airport services (which consitute the bulk of your item 2) would continue to run along the WCML. I don't think that there is much possibility of fitting 200m classic-compatible units into the airport station. Then of course, you item 4 will include services to Blackpool and Liverpool, both of which carry fairly high volumes at various times of year.

Meanwhile, on the East there are numerous trains that a properly laid out High Speed route could take up if it went via the Eastern Route, but which would be impractical to take up via the Western Route.
You could transfer effectively all the XC services and all the London trains to the High Speed route, assuming that a north facing "slip" line could be provided at York and Newcastle, which should not break the bank.

In summary, routing the line via the East Coast reduces both the ECML and WCML to local stopping trains only, while the West Coast route only does this for the WCML, as the flows on the ECML that require long distance services cannot be served by a western high speed route.

As we are not capacity constrained the route that can generate the most spare capacity has to be the chosen one.

Maybe so; but the issue of how best to link England and Scotand will be decided between Transport Scotland and the Treasury on what is best for Scotland and costs least, not on what makes most sense for English cross country services.

There will never be sufficient demand for a second high speed line, the capacity we can squeeze from one is just too large. (Even if we had multiple on route stations we can get 10-12tph from it easily).
Therefore it is effectively an either/or choice, we can't claim that the East Coast might get its route at a later date, since it will never be able to justify one.

I agree with you; but if that is the case, there is much less reason for the Scots to choose to go east through England. So maybe you will have to hope that both of us are wrong.

Will it at least be built to the GC loading gauge?
That is going to come back to bite us if the penny pinchers only have it built to the classic compatible loading gauge.

built to GC loading guage, but limited to 140 mph.

Indeed, but this still requires bi-directional stations at secondary destinations.... otherwise how will the generate "end-to-end" services to other destinations north of them?

indeed so; but (as you have correctly surmised) HS2 Ltd are really only providing so mny stops at Toton and Meadowhall on sufference.

Yes, they claim the capacity argument as the primary driving one for not having stopping trains on HS2 Phase 1... then ignore that the argument no longer exists north of the Birmingham delta junction.
They primarily appear concerned with not letting those annoying secondary train services onto their "premium" high speed line.

But HS2 Ltd/Government are making decisions that do not appear to gel with this assesment of a "pile em high, sell em cheap" railway.
They are apparently committing to purchasing single deck captive train-sets of 200m length.

If you are going to sell huge numbers of advanced fares then really you should attempt 400m double deck trainsets as standard. (See the proposed TGV Grande Capacité)

As I understand it; the commitment is to buy off-the-shelf units (so as to get the advantage of bulk ordering); but the target capacity for a 200m unit is 550 seats; which is higher than the 508 of standard 200m TGV duplex units - and much higher than the 361 seat TGV 200m single-deck units. So, either HS2 will be getting standard class as duplex units, or single-deck configured 3+2 in standard class and 2+2 in first.

Additionally the problem could be solved by building the route to enable additional non London related traffic to be incorporated into it, but they do not appear to be doing this. (The capacity argument on any Phase 3 route simply doesn't work, so the line should tend towards things like the Shinkansen or the "Italian" model)

Maybe you are right; but you are not designing the system, and HS2 Ltd are.
 

LE Greys

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Equally, it is fundamental that captive services do not (for the most part) 'serve places along the way'; They will run end-to-end.

HS2 Ltd fundamentally disagree with the 'Italian' model of a linear HSR route with 2-4 trains per hour stopping at all major cities along the way; Turin, Milan, Bologna, Rome, Naples. Instead they are constructing the system as a 'French' radial system, with London in the middle and non-stop services to each of (around 10) destinations, running mostly one or two paths to each per hour. The fact that in infrastructure terms, most of these radial paths share the same tracks south of Brum makes no difference to the general principle.

Underlying this is a fundamental business model; HSR provides vastly greater seating capacity than classic trains, but will only be profitable if those seats are filled. On classic services this is done by stopping at intermediate stations. But that means slowing down to stop; which adds to operational costs. The alternative is to drop fares far below current levels; and fill the trains with new end-to-end business (on the example of Easyjet/Ryanair).

Basic to this is the realisation that, on an entirely new railway with new track and minimal interaction with the classic system, unit costs per seat mile for end-to-end riunning should be around a third of those on the existing classic system. So HSR ought to be able to charge fares at around half the rates per mile of those on the classic system for end-to-end services; and if they can fill their trains that way, will still make massive profits.

Which does though, creaste a problem for Government funding of the rest of the rail system. It is bad enough that taxpayers in Bristol are having to ppay for the construction of HS2; but if the result is that passengers from Manchester are able to get to London both faster and cheaper, there may weill be pressure for substantially reduced fares throughout.

This is where I fundamentally disagree with HS2 Ltd. France has half the population density of the UK, and it so happens that Paris is essentially in the upper centre, not buried in the south-eastern corner. Italy (and Germany) are much closer to the UK in population density and settlement patterns. However (despite Beeching) the UK still has the web of track built by private enterprise to link villages, and it gets a lot of use from medium-distance journeys.

Assuming their high-frequency service is possible, have they checked that the market is really big enough to support it? I honestly don't think they'll get much more than the equivalent of the entire existing public transport market (about 50% each of rail, air and coach, plus growth). To do anything other than that, they will have to attract car drivers, and that's not easy. Also, the inevitable funding squeeze on the rest of the rail system will be a nightmare.
 

Martin222002

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Equally, it is fundamental that captive services do not (for the most part) 'serve places along the way'; They will run end-to-end.

HS2 Ltd fundamentally disagree with the 'Italian' model of a linear HSR route with 2-4 trains per hour stopping at all major cities along the way; Turin, Milan, Bologna, Rome, Naples. Instead they are constructing the system as a 'French' radial system, with London in the middle and non-stop services to each of (around 10) destinations, running mostly one or two paths to each per hour. The fact that in infrastructure terms, most of these radial paths share the same tracks south of Brum makes no difference to the general principle.

But there are a finite amount of paths on the southern section of the route, of which all 18tph have already been given potential destinations. This limits the scope to just how many places HS2 can sever, if all services (to London at least) are to have a few stops as possible with most destinations being served by there own branches, and also makes the network potentially quite fragmented.
 

HSTEd

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With regard to a High Speed South West... HSSW?

It occurs to me that rather than attempting the traditional Newton Abbot-Plymouth bypass something a little more drastic would be in order.

A high speed line diverging from the normal route at Tiverton Pathway and proceeding directly to Liskeard on the most direct route feasible, which should take it somewhere near Bere Alston.

200m CC trains to Paignton would provide the service to Exeter and would split from the Plymouth trains at Tiverton. The Plymouth sets would proceed over the high speed line to Bere Alston and then use the branch into Plymouth from the west. Even if the train must conform to the branches' ordinary timetable you can still save ~30 minutes.

For the expenditure of ~100km of high speed track you potentially cut 1hr30 of the TIV-LSK journey time and if a 50mph non stop path can be arranged from Bere Alston to Plymouth you can increase the time saving to ~40m.

Needs two paths per hour if 400m trains can be run through from Paddington, and 3 if they cannot be.
 

nerd

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This is where I fundamentally disagree with HS2 Ltd. France has half the population density of the UK, and it so happens that Paris is essentially in the upper centre, not buried in the south-eastern corner. Italy (and Germany) are much closer to the UK in population density and settlement patterns. However (despite Beeching) the UK still has the web of track built by private enterprise to link villages, and it gets a lot of use from medium-distance journeys.

Assuming their high-frequency service is possible, have they checked that the market is really big enough to support it? I honestly don't think they'll get much more than the equivalent of the entire existing public transport market (about 50% each of rail, air and coach, plus growth). To do anything other than that, they will have to attract car drivers, and that's not easy. Also, the inevitable funding squeeze on the rest of the rail system will be a nightmare.

Business car usage is dropping in this country; and has been for around ten years. For journeys into and out of London, it now appears that trains tend to be much the preferred transport mode for business travel - such that for central Manchester to central London trips, rail now has over 80% of the market; whereas 20 years ago it had less than 50%.

On the face of it; that might suggest that the current increasing trend in rail usage could hit a ceiling soon, when 100% of the centre-centre traffic is going by rail. HS2 Ltd, however, believe that concommitant investment in urban transit systems - Crossrail, Metrolink, Supertram, etc - should mean that the 'central'market in each city will expand to include many more origins and destinations. At the same time, they also believe that there is much greater scope for edpaning rail's share of non-London trips (Birmingham-Leeds; Manchester-Glasgow).
 

tbtc

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With regard to a High Speed South West...

I think a separate thread would really be in order for a wholly separate "HS3" (or whatever).

If HS2 is only being built as far as Greater Manchester and Greater Leeds for the foreseeable future then any"South West" High Speed line would presumably only be required as far as Greater Bristol/ Greater Cardiff in my lifetime (since it's more about capacity than speed).
 

tbtc

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HS2 itself is about capacity (although this appears to be yet another smokescreen for reasons I have gone into before), but a High Speed Southwest route would be a game changer for Devon/Cornwall.

It could quite easily put it sufficiently close to the South East to make day-trips to the beach possible, which would drastically improve the tourism industry in the region, and it would mean all those holiday homes would be almost in the commuter belt.

Either thing could easily generate enormous new flows.

I can't see the day when London to Newquay is faster than London to Margate, but it's certainly change the tourism industry were that to happen
 

pitdiver

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As a Londoner who spent many a happy day in Margate I would like to say that Margate has one thing that Cornwall and the Southwest hasn't got that's GROT. It's a Bl***y awful place now. The only good thing about it, is the station is close to the beach and it's quite an impressive building.

A londoner for 38 years
 

HSTEd

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If HS2 is only being built as far as Greater Manchester and Greater Leeds for the foreseeable future then any"South West" High Speed line would presumably only be required as far as Greater Bristol/ Greater Cardiff in my lifetime (since it's more about capacity than speed).

Well HS2 itself is about capacity (although this appears to be yet another smokescreen for reasons I have gone into before), but a High Speed Southwest route would be a game changer for Devon/Cornwall.

It could quite easily put it sufficiently close to the South East to make day-trips to the beach possible, which would drastically improve the tourism industry in the region, and it would mean all those holiday homes would be almost in the commuter belt.

Either thing could easily generate enormous new flows.
 

LE Greys

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Business car usage is dropping in this country; and has been for around ten years. For journeys into and out of London, it now appears that trains tend to be much the preferred transport mode for business travel - such that for central Manchester to central London trips, rail now has over 80% of the market; whereas 20 years ago it had less than 50%.

On the face of it; that might suggest that the current increasing trend in rail usage could hit a ceiling soon, when 100% of the centre-centre traffic is going by rail. HS2 Ltd, however, believe that concommitant investment in urban transit systems - Crossrail, Metrolink, Supertram, etc - should mean that the 'central'market in each city will expand to include many more origins and destinations. At the same time, they also believe that there is much greater scope for edpaning rail's share of non-London trips (Birmingham-Leeds; Manchester-Glasgow).

This makes it sound as if HS2 Ltd are taking a massive gamble on a market that might turn out not to be there. Compromising sufficiently to open up the market for non-London trips would give them a fallback position should this not pay off. If it does hit a ceiling (by my reading, we are in a logistical growth phase, the upper section of a sigmoidal curve where growth begins to tail off [my population ecology tutor would explain it better than I]).

What I think they have failed to understand is the major difference between Britain and France, the nature of our suburbs. Britain has put most of its housing growth into building 'out in the country', whereas France did a lot less than that. As a result, the people the BBC defined as 'Traditional middle class, 'Technical middle class', 'New affluent workers' and 'Emergent service workers' (in other words, typical inter-city travellers) tend to live farther from city centres than in France. This is a sweeping generalisation, of course, and I'm sure there are plenty of contrary examples. However, it is a typical rule of thumb that IC passengers in Britain tend to travel in from suburban stations. BR knew this well, if you notice the additional stops that appeared at Peterborough, Reading, Bedford, Milton Keynes and so on, not to mention the 'Gateway station' concept that led to additional stops at Stevenage, Luton, Watford Junction and Slough, plus Intercity's attempts to break into the commuter market with 'Intercity Shuttle'. This is what HS2 Ltd have totally ignored.
 

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I was reading the monthly listings magazine for the Rex Cinema, Berkhamsted. There was a dreadful illinformed article against HS2. Do these idiots not realise that Berkhamsted commuters should benefit from a better local train service once the non stop expresses have been moved to HS2?
 

Ironside

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I was reading the monthly listings magazine for the Rex Cinema, Berkhamsted. There was a dreadful illinformed article against HS2. Do these idiots not realise that Berkhamsted commuters should benefit from a better local train service once the non stop expresses have been moved to HS2?

Looking at the website the cinema seems to be a historic cinema fighting for financial servival. The editorial (http://therexberkhamsted.com/?page_id=168)
seems to cover fighting for loans and govt funding for the cinema, and arguing against local house building and HS2. So no I don't think the author is well informed about the effects of HS2 on his town.
 

WatcherZero

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LOL UKIP is campaigning that HS2 is part of TEN-T (its not) and that its a European Union project forced upon the British people!
 

Ironside

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LOL UKIP is campaigning that HS2 is part of TEN-T (its not) and that its a European Union project forced upon the British people!

It's interesting that HS2 isn't associated with TEN-T, is that because proponents saw that association with the EU would be used as ammunition by the anti's or is the EU happy with bits of 125 mph lines. I expect the former.
 

Metrailway

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It was reported on BBC London a few days ago (but not online...) that HS2 plans for Euston have been drastically scaled down. Instead of a brand new station, I believe that the current platforms 1 - 15 will now be retained with a new 6 line train shed alongside it. The new plan would leave no space for new homes or businesses.
 

Ironside

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It was reported on BBC London a few days ago (but not online...) that HS2 plans for Euston have been drastically scaled down. Instead of a brand new station, I believe that the current platforms 1 - 15 will now be retained with a new 6 line train shed alongside it. The new plan would leave no space for new homes or businesses.

The local paper in camden had a similar article: http://www.camdennewjournal.com/new...euston-station-years-disruption-what-benefits

The plans should be announced in a few weeks, so then we will be able to see what is actually proposed.
 
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gordonthemoron

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are they going to redo the exisiting platforms? the current layout at Euston is a mess and there are quite big gaps between some platforms
 

Ironside

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are they going to redo the exisiting platforms? the current layout at Euston is a mess and there are quite big gaps between some platforms

As I understand Camden council would like a double decker station so that some of the old station footprint could be redeveloped for other purposes. So the current station might be intended to be redeveloped on the current footprint or just left as is, either way Camden council is not happy. Those proposing the plans have not yet released the plans for public consultation yet. It might be that developers have said something to the effect of if you won't let us redevelop the station as we want then will just leave the old station as is. This is however mostly speculation on my part and my best guess until the facts come out.
 

Maurice3000

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It's interesting that HS2 isn't associated with TEN-T, is that because proponents saw that association with the EU would be used as ammunition by the anti's or is the EU happy with bits of 125 mph lines. I expect the former.
It is very simple, TEN-T is not about building new lines, the rail component of TEN-T is about upgrading and harmonising existing infrastructure to remove barriers to international rail travel. It's about increasing competition, lowering costs, improving reliability and moving a lot of freight off the road onto rail.

The EU could not and would not tell a member state to build an entirely new passenger line. HS2 is not part of TEN-T and likely never will be.

Perhaps one day, after HS2 is operational and therefore more freight capacity is available on the WCML, the UK could apply for EU funds to improve the WCML using the argument of bringing it in line with the TEN-T objectives. The 25kV ohle is already there, ERTMS is scheduled, the only thing that could still be done is modernise its loading gauge to continental standards so a single freight train could travel from let's say Genoa to Birmingham.
 

WatcherZero

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The West Coast Mainline along with spurs from the Midlands to Felixstowe and Liverpool-Kingston Upon Hull is already a Ten-T line and the upgrades culminating in 2008 was a Ten-T project and the EU is contributing something token like £8m to the Lancashire Triangle electrification.
 

Chris125

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It might be that developers have said something to the effect of if you won't let us redevelop the station as we want then will just leave the old station as is. This is however mostly speculation on my part and my best guess until the facts come out.

I believe it's simply down to the initial plan being too expensive and too risky, redeveloping the whole station while keeping the WCML open is asking for trouble.

I doubt this would kill off any future rebuilding as there were plans to do so before HS2, while there's certainly some obvious logic in tackling the existing station separately at a later date by which time the new line should've eased the pressure on it.

Chris
 
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