High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Haydn1971]

There appears to be a long-term decline in car usage per head, since at least the early noughties;.

That statement is a little deceptive after reading the rest of your post - per head perhaps, as a volume, not in the slightest - we have had a volume drop in the last couple of years, which will return to the trend soon, as to the significance of a per head figure ? A lane satuarates at 1800-2100 ish, doesn't matter about per head, it's all about actual volumes

 

[Chris125]

Given the limited capacity on the proposed HS1-HS2 link, does anyone have a view on which HS2 stations are likely to get customs/immigration/security facilities?

Old Oak Common is probably the strongest candidate, especially if international services can terminate independently of HS2 services - it would provide a West London alternative to St Pancras allowing same-station interchange with HS2, Great Western and Crossrail services, with the possibility of London Overground too.

It's hard to imagine Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds all justifying the necessary facilities but i can see there being political pressure for an international service to at least one of them.

Chris

 

[tbtc]

It's hard to imagine Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds all justifying the necessary facilities but i can see there being political pressure for an international service to at least one of them.

Chris

I think that one in (say) Leeds would be a bit of a white elephant. But if Manchester gets one then there'll be demands that Leeds has to have one too!

(and vice versa - same of any two competing cities - not a dig at Leodensians)

 

[si404]

None. We'll only see direct services to the continent if/when we become part of the Schengen Area; the operational costs of maintaining border controls and segregated platforms at all of the HS2 stations is too high.

Of course the problems of the security checks for the Chunnel* and lack of demand and capacity for non-London through trains aren't issues at all - it's simply the lack of ever-closer-union... :roll:

*which have bigger operational costs than border controls and will still mean segregated platforms even if we join Schengen.

 

[Rational Plan]

I take it you mean comparing Peterbrough-Scotland with King's Cross-Scotland. I don't think EC publishes the exact figures. If you include people changing at Peterborough, the catchment area goes as far as Norwich and Stansted and includes all the local stations on the ECML. From anecdotal evidence, it's about 10-25% depending on service and time of day.

If you mean Peterborough-King's Cross vs Peterborough-Northward, the 5% figure only applies at the peaks. Off-peak, it's closer to 50/50.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's what I was thinking, with cascaded Pendolinos, doubtlessly refitted for their new commuter role.

No I was comparing Peterborough London to Peterborough Scotland. I imagine that flows to London still dominate even in the off peak.

I imagine that those travelling Northward from Peterborough are more likely going to Doncaster and Leeds rather than Edinburgh. I doubt they will suffer from a lack of connections to those places in a post HS2 future. People in Peterborough will get greater benefit from more capacity on trains to London than on a few direct passengers to Edinburgh.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Could leaving the EU potentially hit anything to do with international services? Does the EU help with border controls and anything. How is it done on the mainland?

 

[Lampshade]

Could leaving the EU potentially hit anything to do with international services? Does the EU help with border controls and anything.

Probably not, we already have immigration controls at the Eurostar stations, it'll just mean additional paperwork/checks.

How is it done on the mainland?

No border checks within the Schengen area.

 

[dggar]

Given the limited capacity on the proposed HS1-HS2 link,
does anyone have a view on which HS2 stations are likely to get customs/immigration/security facilities?
the HS2 Ltd docs I've read don't seem to spec anything at present. I suppose it depends what E* & DBs business plans are in 10 years time. But given both have plans to go further south the other side of the tunnel, presumably they would also be interested in Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield? Certainly Centro are pushing for an international terminal at Curzon St, which certainly implies it's not a done deal at present.

I can't quite see all the HS2 stations getting customs & immigration, maybe there might be some 'connecting services' using OOC as E* are doing at Lille now? Not ideal, but an improvement on dragging luggage along Euston Road....

(see: www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=72647 re E* plans further south/west)

I 've just spent a week travelling between Seville, Cordoba and Madrid on the Spanish High Speed system. At each of those staions I had to put my bags through an X ray scanning system before boarding the train. ( there was no requirement for me to pass through a metal detecting system though.)

 

[HSTEd]

Of course the problems of the security checks for the Chunnel* and lack of demand and capacity for non-London through trains aren't issues at all - it's simply the lack of ever-closer-union... :roll:

*which have bigger operational costs than border controls and will still mean segregated platforms even if we join Schengen.

The checks they perform to use the Chunnel Shuttle are cursory and unlikely to detect a properly prepared improvised device with yields in the hundreds of kilogrammes. (Those explosive residue detector things won't help if the bomb was sealed in an airtight container miles from the delivery vehicle and then transported to it after being washed several times).

The size of weapon one could carry onto the train would have little effect on the tunnel itself, it would be no worse than detonating the device inside say.... the Gotthard Base Tunnel.
Do they require metal detectors and x-rays to board trains through that?

The checks on the Eurotunnel are to do with immigration and placating the airline lobby. (it is not like they can even hijack a train and drive it into something.... "TAKE THIS TRAIN TO ITS SCHEDULED DESTINATION!")

 

[WatcherZero]

The ruling in the judicial review of HS2's legality will be made today, was supposed to be made in January :P

 

[Metrailway]

Today's ruling from High Court:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21795755

High Court says HS2 compensation consultation unlawful

A government consultation into the compensation of those affected by the planned HS2 high-speed rail scheme has been ruled unlawful by the High Court, lawyers have said.

But the government has won nine out of 10 key points, effectively giving the "green light" to the project, the BBC's Richard Westcott said.

 

[The Ham]

Today's ruling from High Court:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21795755

There are more details from the DfT as to what each of the 10 points where and how the ruling will affect HS2 here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-judicial-review-the-challenges-explained.pdf

The 10th point is highlighted below (there other 9 having been dismissed):

10
The claimants argued that the Government’s consultation on
discretionary compensation options was unfair.

Challenge upheld

. The judge found that the consultation process
was unfair, because not enough information was provided to
consultees and the criteria by which compensation options were
considered were not adequately explained. He also found that the
Government had not fully considered HS2 Action Alliance’s detailed
consultation response on compensation.
No delay to HS2
.
The Government will consult again on
compensation options as soon as possible, but this won’t delay
HS2.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The comments on the BBC have started in their usual drivel.

'We need to make the current network better first, anyone who travels between Manchester and Liverpool will know what i mean' Nope that route isn't being electrified with additional services at all!

'Telecommunications will subdue all long distance travel.' It hasn't even slowed it yet i do not see how it will reduce it to zero.. I could go on.

A good day for HS2 but i fear this is the start of hundreds of hoops to jump through.

 

[tbtc]

'We need to make the current network better first, anyone who travels between Manchester and Liverpool will know what i mean' Nope that route isn't being electrified with additional services at all!

If only there were some electrification planned between those cities... yup, know what you mean!

'Telecommunications will subdue all long distance travel.' It hasn't even slowed it yet i do not see how it will reduce it to zero...

The same arguments could have been made in the late '90s (and at any stage since then).

A good day for HS2 but i fear this is the start of hundreds of hoops to jump through.

True - its reassuring that 90% of the barriers that the "no" camp brought were ruled out though - if those ten points were their "big guns" then I'm still confident in the long term.

 

[swt_passenger]

I just heard Maria Eagle on my local radio, started off all positive and then accused the government of having 'dithered' for three years?

I then see the BBC version of this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21795755

Shadow transport secretary Maria Eagle accused the government of a "botched" consultation which had contributed to "three years of dither and delay" over the HS2 project.

AIUI the current government are broadly following the timescales Adonis suggested, and they haven't been in power for 3 years yet? Is this criticism justified at all? It isn't the government that's calling for judicial reviews is it?

 

[nick.c]

The comments on the BBC have started in their usual drivel.


A good day for HS2 but i fear this is the start of hundreds of hoops to jump through.

ITV News isn't much better. Apparently it's almost the end of Wendover. Just checked the map - between Wendover and HS2 is an existing railway and a very busy road. Oh and by the way - HS2 will be in a tunnel!!!

 

[AndyHudds]

The usual NIMBY's are making themselves heard on national TV, whilst the legal teams around the country rub their hands together over the threatened legal challenges.

 

[Realfish]

I think that one in (say) Leeds would be a bit of a white elephant. But if Manchester gets one then there'll be demands that Leeds has to have one too!

(and vice versa - same of any two competing cities - not a dig at Leodensians)

CAA stats show that in February, the number of air passengers to / from Paris was;

Manchester: 38018
Birmingham : 28717
Leeds / Bradford: 3280 (Jan)

So yes, Leeds would be a white elephant, but there would seem to be some potential for a Manchester / Birmingham to Paris service (but probably not a dedicated B'ham service?), bearing in mind that these figures increase during the summer

(NB: Figures for 2012 were: MAN: 483017, BHX 361234, LBA 64397).

 

[TBY-Paul]

CAA stats show that in February, the number of air passengers to / from Paris was;

Manchester: 38018
Birmingham : 28717
Leeds / Bradford: 3280 (Jan)

So yes, Leeds would be a white elephant, but there would seem to be some potential for a Manchester / Birmingham to Paris service (but probably not a dedicated B'ham service?), bearing in mind that these figures increase during the summer

(NB: Figures for 2012 were: MAN: 483017, BHX 361234, LBA 64397).

Figures like these can usually be made to fit any argument, because they don't show the whole picture. I don't know if Doncaster airport do Paris flights but Newcastle do. So if you were to include those to figures then it would weaken the argument against not including Leeds.

 

[Haydn1971]

Figures like these can usually be made to fit any argument, because they don't show the whole picture.

Indeed, in other news the market for rail travel to Europe in 1993 was zero - couldn't possibly be any case to be opening a tunnel to Europe :-/ facts tell the tale of what has happened rather than what could/will happen - frustrates the hell out of me !

Regardless of the numbers, I do see a market for a second international station away from London, perhaps either at Old Oak or further north at Birmingham Interchange to get around the hassle of travelling to London, potential overnight stays or battling commuter travellers to get there. There needs to be a central London international station for sure, but providing the infrastructure to run several direct services from Birmingham to the wider European market could be an interesting new holiday travel mode for many - just how far could you get on European High Speed Rail direct from Birmingham in say 6, 8 even 10 hrs ? EasyRail ? RyanTrack ? Travel to Europe on a booze train ! Ha !

 

[Dave1987]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21795755

A High Court ruling into government consultations on the planned HS2 rail scheme is a "landmark victory" for the project, the rail minister has said.

The government won nine out of 10 points being challenged, which Simon Burns said effectively gave the "green light" to the high-speed rail project.

However, the consultation into compensation for those affected was ruled "unlawful" by Mr Justice Ouseley.

Anti-HS2 group 51m has been granted leave to appeal on two counts.

It's a significant win for the government. This court case had the potential to cause them some hefty problems.

If the judge had decided they'd got the environmental impact element wrong, for example, it could have delayed the project by months, even years, and cost the government (and therefore the taxpayer) a lot of money.

Instead, ministers promise they can now carry on without delay.

But don't think that's the end of the legal wrestling.

Today's losers are already promising to appeal. And ministers could face a whole new wave of legal challenges over the second phase of the line, which will run from Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds.

The London to Birmingham section of the rail £33bn rail project aims to be running by 2025.

The second phase, north from Birmingham in a Y-shaped extension to Manchester and Leeds, could be operational by about 2032-33.

The Department for Transport said that HS2 phase two would virtually halve journey times between Birmingham and Manchester - to 41 minutes - and between London and Manchester from two hours and eight minutes to one hour and eight minutes.

Under the plans, speeds of up to 250mph on HS2 would reduce a Birmingham to Leeds journey from two hours to 57 minutes, while phase one will cut London-Birmingham travel to 49 minutes, from the current one hour and 24 minutes.

But critics argue that HS2's predicted economic benefits have been overestimated by the government, and suggest swathes of picturesque countryside will be blighted by the railway.

The objections brought to court also included the claim that the government failed to adequately assess alternatives to the scheme.

Maybe once the anti's have costs taxpayer another couple of million quid we might be able to build this project that will be very good for the UK.

 

[SS4]

Maybe once the anti's have costs taxpayer another couple of million quid we might be able to build this project that will be very good for the UK.

No chance. The Anti's entire gameplan is to delay construction by any means necessary until it becomes unprofitable to go ahead. The Yanks have a term for it: to filibuster

They (the antis) have plenty of rich backers and friends. It was very clear whilst being forced to watch Central News that they are Anti-HS2 when of course they should be neutral

 

[LE Greys]

No I was comparing Peterborough London to Peterborough Scotland. I imagine that flows to London still dominate even in the off peak.

I imagine that those travelling Northward from Peterborough are more likely going to Doncaster and Leeds rather than Edinburgh. I doubt they will suffer from a lack of connections to those places in a post HS2 future. People in Peterborough will get greater benefit from more capacity on trains to London than on a few direct passengers to Edinburgh.

Again, it depends on what you're comparing. Some proportion of southbound passengers will travel on FCC services, and not all of those will be going to London, because there're all the local station, the Cambridge Branch, the Hertford Loop, etc. (some of those will connect through to stations north of Peterborough). To test properly, we need passenger counts north and south of Peterborough on EC services. In general, I've always noticed the numbers being about the same off-peak, but have nothing to back that up with.

This is why we need figures!

Besides, suburbanising the semi-fasts north of Peterborough is hardly a good arguement for HS2. An improved frequency may not necessarily be a good thing. What is most likely is an 'Operation Princess' situation, trading comfort for frequency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The checks they perform to use the Chunnel Shuttle are cursory and unlikely to detect a properly prepared improvised device with yields in the hundreds of kilogrammes. (Those explosive residue detector things won't help if the bomb was sealed in an airtight container miles from the delivery vehicle and then transported to it after being washed several times).

The size of weapon one could carry onto the train would have little effect on the tunnel itself, it would be no worse than detonating the device inside say.... the Gotthard Base Tunnel.
Do they require metal detectors and x-rays to board trains through that?

The checks on the Eurotunnel are to do with immigration and placating the airline lobby. (it is not like they can even hijack a train and drive it into something.... "TAKE THIS TRAIN TO ITS SCHEDULED DESTINATION!")

They can still stop it dead anywhere they like on the line and then hold all the passengers at gunpoint, or simply derail it and block the line for ages. The French Resistance did a heck of a lot with lines in France, and they were trying to keep civilians alive. Although of course they could do exactly the same with any line in the country.

 

[Bonemaster]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21795755



Maybe once the anti's have costs taxpayer another couple of million quid we might be able to build this project that will be very good for the UK.

A bit of a case of taxpayer cost for versus taxpayer cost against as 51M are not just an anti HS2 group but are a group of 18 local authorities of course funded by the taxpayer

 

[CarltonA]

I am going to be boring and bring up the Great Central again. I they had reused more of the GC route on this they would have had a better chance of it going through more smoothly. There is a lot of disused infrastruture there and not much property to be demolished. I am only talking of the route south of the WCML not going to Leicester etc. The major issue would be the Brackley viaduct and of course overcoming how to work with the Chiltern route.

 

[Dave1987]

Considering the project has cross party support I can't quite understand why it is so difficult to just build the damm thing.

 

[Trog]

I am going to be boring and bring up the Great Central again. I they had reused more of the GC route on this they would have had a better chance of it going through more smoothly. There is a lot of disused infrastruture there and not much property to be demolished. I am only talking of the route south of the WCML not going to Leicester etc. The major issue would be the Brackley viaduct and of course overcoming how to work with the Chiltern route. If trains used Marylebone and Paddington then they could drop the costly Euston and tunnels idea.

A line shared with LU from Amersham to Northwick Park, just how much spare capacity do you think, there is likely to be on that section of line, and how impressive will a High Speed service be that follows a tube train on yellows.

You also suggest only going to Rugby, so your new service dumps onto the WCML just in time to use the three track section of the TV, or to join the queue on the Birmingham / Stour lines, probably behind a LM all stations.

:roll:

 

[CarltonA]

Most GC traffic was via High Wycombe after about 1905, but anyway I realise the last part of my post was a bit daft. However, a bit more use of the route may have avoided some legal challenges. I was not suggesting joining onto the WCML at Rugby just more use of the old GC formation in that direction.

 

[charlee]

Was just wondering, would HS2 be considered part of the national rail network or would it be considered a different system al together?.

Also is it going to be built in standard gauge?

 

[Chris125]

Indeed, in other news the market for rail travel to Europe in 1993 was zero - couldn't possibly be any case to be opening a tunnel to Europe :-/ facts tell the tale of what has happened rather than what could/will happen - frustrates the hell out of me !

I don't think Eurostar is a very good example to use - it may have been very effective at capturing market share but it has not expanded that market to the extent hoped.

Even if international services over HS2 were as effective at capturing market share, they'd need to greatly expand that market for a regular service to be viable - is this likely when people from Manchester, Leeds etc will get much more choice over when they travel, for little extra journey time and probably cheaper too if they use domestic services and change at OOC or Euston?

Most GC traffic was via High Wycombe after about 1905, but anyway I realise the last part of my post was a bit daft. However, a bit more use of the route may have avoided some legal challenges. I was not suggesting joining onto the WCML at Rugby just more use of the old GC formation in that direction.

Using further sections of redundant railway trackbed would make no legal difference, and i'm not aware that it forms the basis of any legal challenge anyway. While it's often suggested that it would prove less controversial, i don't really think there's any evidence to suggest that - those negatively affected will always be unhappy, even if they already live alongside a motorway, and just look at all the fuss kicked up about Chiltern's upgrading of the Bicester branch.

Chris