• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,032
I have one word to describe people who actually believe that - deluded.

It won't mean faster services, it'll mean existing fast services calling at Watford, Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield etc, making end to end journey times less attractive and pushing end to end passengers onto HS2 - the premium service. There is a precedent to this.

The problem with HS1 is that there is only one operator, so they can force people to move onto the premium services. Even if the services currently run by Virgin come under the same operator as the HS2 services then there will be other operators who will offer cheaper travel if the same was tried.

However it is likely that the HS2 route will be run by a different company to the routes run by Virgin currently, meaning yet more competition and the likely retention of a few fast services (although no faster than at present), with most of the fast services calling at a mixture of one or two extra stations up to five or six extra stations. In doing so they will cater for some of the Birmingham to London market, but mostly focussing on serving the towns and cities between.

As although Birmingham to London may be 30 minutes faster, it'll be not much faster (but certainly cheaper) to go from say Coventry to London using services along the WCML rather than up to Birmingham and back down again.

Where time savings are to be made post HS2 compared to at present is when there will be more services call at stations which have a limited calling pattern to cater for the longer distance services.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,784
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Honestly, what is Coventry's problem with HS2, the loss of Coventry Airport etc?

They are the most asperationally dellutional city I've seen for a long time...

What makes Coventry so much different or better than than the likes of Bradford is to Leeds, Rotherham is to Sheffeild, Salford is to Manchester etc?
 

Kettledrum

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2010
Messages
804
A city centre station in Derby is just as infeasible as one in Nottingham.

.

No, that's not what's in the detail of the HS2 reports. It's not infeasible, it just requires the total rebuild of the existing station. Thebuilding work part of the rebuilding and remodelling is OK - it's the huge disruption to exisiting services for the 3 year re-build period that was the deal breaker

.. and the politics with Nottingham.
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,101
Location
Sheffield
However it is likely that the HS2 route will be run by a different company to the routes run by Virgin currently, meaning yet more competition and the likely retention of a few fast services (although no faster than at present), with most of the fast services calling at a mixture of one or two extra stations up to five or six extra stations.

Whilst many people are putting this around as an idea - the fundamental reason behind HS2 is to release capacity on existing main lines. Retaining higher speed express services on parallel lines reduces the benefits brought by building a whole new rail backbone. Building the financial case for HS2 will lead to one likely outcome, that will be that HS2 will be the only fast intercity option for travel on the WCML, MML, ECML and CrossCountry services north of Birmingham.

You will still see long distance services on the existing mainlines, but these will be ultimately speed limited by the economics of serving as many passengers as possible and a reduced general line speed to match the abilities of the local services running on the line, which in 20 years could still be 75mph, but equally could also be governed by 50mph tram-trains through more urban areas.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
Whilst many people are putting this around as an idea - the fundamental reason behind HS2 is to release capacity on existing main lines. Retaining higher speed express services on parallel lines reduces the benefits brought by building a whole new rail backbone. Building the financial case for HS2 will lead to one likely outcome, that will be that HS2 will be the only fast intercity option for travel on the WCML, MML, ECML and CrossCountry services north of Birmingham.

You will still see long distance services on the existing mainlines, but these will be ultimately speed limited by the economics of serving as many passengers as possible and a reduced general line speed to match the abilities of the local services running on the line, which in 20 years could still be 75mph, but equally could also be governed by 50mph tram-trains through more urban areas.

You think that the ECML south of York and the MML south of Sheffield are going to be replaced by 50-75mph tram trains?

A tad pessimistic?
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,273
I expect 100mph on the MML and 125mph on the ECML to be maintained, but with drastically shorter trains. (Probably 5-car IEPs at most on the ECML, possibly shorter than that)
 

si404

Established Member
Joined
28 Dec 2012
Messages
1,267
And I can't see the WCML fasts not being 125mph trains, even after HS2.

The ECML especially, but also the WCML fasts, have long distances between stops. Even if the ECML is all-stops between Peterborough and Doncaster, I can't see why 125mph running becomes difficult or out of character.
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
The problem that kills Options 'E' and 'M' in my opinion is the sourcing of the terminus.
St Pancras doesn't have sufficient width to take the platforms required without fouling the international ones, and King's Cross has a canal in the way of the station throat being moved further north. (And that canal is still in regular tourist use so severing it is not a practical proposition).

All you really have to do at Paddington is demolish the Vodafone HQ and slew the underground lines over out of the way.

Building a terminus out at Stratford seems to be doomed to failure in my opinion, and any attempts to connect to europe are going to be too problematic anyway for it to be really worthwhile.

Looks like we're screwed no matter what then. :roll: However, I still think that a connection to Europe is possibly more important that just reaching London, and we really need to focus on it. As for Paddington, moving the Underground lines will be a nightmare, but using the Vodafone HQ site (which I think was once Paddington goods depot) should be just about sufficient for a few platforms, and actually would only need the Hamm & City to move, which hopefully means grade-separating the Praed Street Junction.

While 125mph on the SWML might be feasible and would be quite nice to have, you are still hamstrung by the restrictions on loading gauge and length of trains.

A 10 car Class 444 has 668 seats, whereas a 400m TGV Duplex Grande Capacité can have 1350 with an Intercity seating density..... I hate to think what a higher density seat layout would do to passenger numbers.

However, it's also what we're stuck with, at least for the forseeable future. Apart from anything else, any version of a TGV might have problems with Southampton Tunnel, and diverting traffic out of Southampton Central (which really is 'central' and a medium-level hub for Hampshire) is neither going to be popular nor successful - the time penalty of travelling out to Southampton Airport or wherever would nullify the time saved anyway. A possible 125mph successor to the 444 might actually be closer to a 450 with high-density seating. Depending on what happens with Waterloo and Crossrail 2, we should see an effective capacity increase over time. The biggest capacity increase would be four tracks from Eastleigh to Worting Junction.

My Option 'W' has an OOC style station at Heathrow with all 18tph stopping for simplicities sake (Assuming 18hr operational days, that is 324 trains per day in each direction). That should easily be enough to saturate demand for the forseable future without causing dwell time issues.

Sounds like a very good idea (although the cynic in me says that BAA won't like losing all that revenue). It ought to solve several problems with Heathrow fairly quickly.

I think 18tph is achievable if they have a "doors can be closed up to 2 minutes before departure" rule in effect.
Also the theoretical headway is 150 seconds, which means you should be able to handle bunching of trains without too much issue.

That depends on which way you're going. It's easy enough to achieve that with down trains, but up trains will be an utter nightmare unless it's kept 100% separate from everything else (which would either make 'classic-compatible' impossible to deliver or result in high-speed trains having to wait for paths when they hit the junction). Remember, you're merging traffic from at least four different lines into one, at least two of which (Glasgow and Edinburgh) will have mixed it with freight and local passengers for up to 200 miles. Doncaster and Rugby are bad enough already!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And I can't see the WCML fasts not being 125mph trains, even after HS2.

The ECML especially, but also the WCML fasts, have long distances between stops. Even if the ECML is all-stops between Peterborough and Doncaster, I can't see why 125mph running becomes difficult or out of character.

Even I wouldn't go that far, especially with fast-accelerating Pendys and IEPs running both lines (they'll probably still be there in 2050). However, I'm certain it will never be faster than 125 either.
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,101
Location
Sheffield
You think that the ECML south of York and the MML south of Sheffield are going to be replaced by 50-75mph tram trains?

A tad pessimistic?

Not quite ;) but fully expect tram-trains been seen as a cheap fix for Pacer replacements into places like Leeds and Manchester - perhaps even using parts of the current mainlines for services in and around Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Peterborough, Milton Keynes, Northampton etc...
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
Not quite ;) but fully expect tram-trains been seen as a cheap fix for Pacer replacements into places like Leeds and Manchester - perhaps even using parts of the current mainlines for services in and around Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Peterborough, Milton Keynes, Northampton etc...

There's still going to be demand for Leicester - London, for Peterborough - London, for Northampton/ Milton Keynes - London.

HS2 won't affect any of those demand patterns, so fast frequent trains will still be needed to compete with the A1/ M1 etc.

Tram Trains may replace Pacers one day (if anyone can agree on what a "tram train" actually is...), but there are no Pacers in Northampton etc, no "local services" either - just lots of busy mainline trains.

Sounds like you really want to use the "classic lines will shrivel up when HS2 arrives" argument, but you've taken that a little too far ;)
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,101
Location
Sheffield
And I can't see the WCML fasts not being 125mph trains, even after HS2. The ECML especially, but also the WCML fasts, have long distances between stops. Even if the ECML is all-stops between Peterborough and Doncaster, I can't see why 125mph running becomes difficult or out of character.

There may well be sections with 110-125mph units, but the fundamental point of HS2 is to release paths for stopping services - places like Rossington, Bircotes, Tuxford, North Peterborough, Yaxley, etc will be wanting stations on the ECML, Clay Cross and Ilkeston on the MML and similar places on the WCML - you might get 110-125mph capable units, but will they get to reach anywhere near that between stations ?
 
Joined
27 Jan 2011
Messages
203
Location
North Staffs/Cheshire border
And I can't see the WCML fasts not being 125mph trains, even after HS2.

The ECML especially, but also the WCML fasts, have long distances between stops. Even if the ECML is all-stops between Peterborough and Doncaster, I can't see why 125mph running becomes difficult or out of character.

Sort of taking that thought, could you see Compatibles leaving KGX and acting as a stopper until it reaches the wider spaced station sections north of PBO, then running @ 125 between ECML stops until turning out onto HS2 Phase 3 and running at HS to the north east.
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,101
Location
Sheffield
There's still going to be demand for Leicester - London, for Peterborough - London, for Northampton/ Milton Keynes - London. HS2 won't affect any of those demand patterns, so fast frequent trains will still be needed to compete with the A1/ M1 etc.

Agreed, but these places will struggle to fill the service they have now without either running a less frequent service or calling at more places - the seats from north of York will go to London via HS2 and Doncaster passengers may well chose to travel to Meadowhall, especially if they live west of the A1

Tram Trains may replace Pacers one day (if anyone can agree on what a "tram train" actually is...), but there are no Pacers in Northampton etc, no "local services" either - just lots of busy mainline trains.

I've always considered tram-trains to be trams that run on shared heavy rail routes, but becoming increasingly aware of the phrase slipping into more "official" local and national government documents - Pacers were a cheap short term fix, tram-trains are starting to look very much like Pacer Mk2 :-/

Sounds like you really want to use the "classic lines will shrivel up when HS2 arrives" argument, but you've taken that a little too far ;)

Classic lines will thrive I'm sure - I'm just expecting more of a split in responsibility as has happened with roads, where HS2 and classic compatible feeds become the "trunk roads " and the rest gets consumed into regional and city region focused ITA's.
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
Sort of taking that thought, could you see Compatibles leaving KGX and acting as a stopper until it reaches the wider spaced station sections north of PBO, then running @ 125 between ECML stops until turning out onto HS2 Phase 3 and running at HS to the north east.

Would there be any point to it? It would be full of London traffic at first, gradually emptying out until it reached Doncaster, where it would be almost (but not quite) empty. Say 20% full for a unit that left London with every seat taken, or 40% full for one that left wedged. Then it would take up an HS path north of there. Seems a bit of a waste of a path.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There's still going to be demand for Leicester - London, for Peterborough - London, for Northampton/ Milton Keynes - London.

HS2 won't affect any of those demand patterns, so fast frequent trains will still be needed to compete with the A1/ M1 etc.

Tram Trains may replace Pacers one day (if anyone can agree on what a "tram train" actually is...), but there are no Pacers in Northampton etc, no "local services" either - just lots of busy mainline trains.

Sounds like you really want to use the "classic lines will shrivel up when HS2 arrives" argument, but you've taken that a little too far ;)

Since those are all journeys of under 100 miles or 1 hour, it's fairly clear what the dominent traffic pattern will be. What of Leicester-Sheffield, Peterborough-Leeds or Northampton-Manchester?
 

Martin222002

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2011
Messages
267
Location
Chesterfield, Derbyshire
What of Leicester-Sheffield, Peterborough-Leeds or Northampton-Manchester?

Agreed. I know that there can be some large flows between Sheffield and Leicester, with plenty of people getting off at Leicester heading to London and getting on when heading north. I'm sure the same can be said between intermediate stations on the ECML, and the same again on the WCML.

There will always be a demand for Intercity services on the classic lines, there just won't be the need for fast/non-stop express Intercity services connecting the large urban areas Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh to London, and to a lesser extend Birmingham, as HS2 service will meet those requirements. So HS2 will not be the death of Intercity services on the classic lines. It will just allow them to better serve the medium and smaller urban areas together as well as to the large urban areas listed before.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,273
There may well be sections with 110-125mph units, but the fundamental point of HS2 is to release paths for stopping services - places like Rossington, Bircotes, Tuxford, North Peterborough, Yaxley, etc will be wanting stations on the ECML, Clay Cross and Ilkeston on the MML and similar places on the WCML - you might get 110-125mph capable units, but will they get to reach anywhere near that between stations ?

A Class 395 will reach 200kph in approximately 125 seconds, having travelled approximately 4650m downrange.

That is representative of what modern fast accelerating EMUs can do. (And IEP has similar Japanese heritage, if not quite so close to Shinkansen performance).

So using the ECML for example....

Grantham to Newark (with no significant settlements along the line which would possibly qualify for a station) is 23.6km by the railway.

That means that 9300m will be spent accelerating and deccelerating (assuming primarily regenerative braking is used, so a symmetrical acceleration/braking curve).

That means that approximately 14.3km will be spent at 200kph, giving you a time spent at that speed of about 260 seconds, or approximately half the journey.

That means that the total journey time will be approximately 510 seconds, or 8 minutes and 30 seconds.

So yeah, the ECML will be able to support 125mph running operationally even with some additional stations.

Would there be any point to it? It would be full of London traffic at first, gradually emptying out until it reached Doncaster, where it would be almost (but not quite) empty. Say 20% full for a unit that left London with every seat taken, or 40% full for one that left wedged. Then it would take up an HS path north of there. Seems a bit of a waste of a path.

To be fair a line from York to newcastle is never going to be anywhere near capacity.

It would be lucky to get six trains per hour on it... which would give it similar economic performance to the 18tph core considering its vastly lower cost. So "wasting" paths is not really an issue. It becomes a case of 'the more the merrier'.

EDIT:

With regards to putting shorter trains into the ECML... it would enable the main line trains to entirely use teh Suburban platforms, allowing the main trainshed to be repurposed for other things.

Does anyone know if there is a major "dip" coming out of the north end of the station to get under the canal, or is the canal already above the railway?
If the latter, you could just put the canal on a bridge over the newly widened station throat, it would be just short of the platforms by my calculations. This makes it available for an Option 'M' or a projected Option 'E' (although I am not sure such an option is really that advisable).
 
Last edited:

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,101
Location
Sheffield
So HS2 will not be the death of Intercity services on the classic lines. It will just allow them to better serve the medium and smaller urban areas together as well as to the large urban areas listed before.

That's a very palatable way of putting a cut to the service ;)

Have you ever considered politics ? ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Grantham to Newark (with no significant settlements along the line which would possibly qualify for a station) is 23.6km by the railway.

Accepted, you could see 125mph running on longef sections like Grantham-Newark - although what about somewhere that could have a local demand (through the Local Transport Plan process) such as Doncaster - Retford with places like Doncaster Carr, Rossington, Bawtry and Ranskill all either big enough to support a local service into Doncaster or with a wealthy enough local population to want connecting trains to say Meadowhall of Toton ?
 
Last edited:

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,032
Whilst many people are putting this around as an idea - the fundamental reason behind HS2 is to release capacity on existing main lines. Retaining higher speed express services on parallel lines reduces the benefits brought by building a whole new rail backbone. Building the financial case for HS2 will lead to one likely outcome, that will be that HS2 will be the only fast intercity option for travel on the WCML, MML, ECML and CrossCountry services north of Birmingham.

You will still see long distance services on the existing mainlines, but these will be ultimately speed limited by the economics of serving as many passengers as possible and a reduced general line speed to match the abilities of the local services running on the line, which in 20 years could still be 75mph, but equally could also be governed by 50mph tram-trains through more urban areas.

HS2 will be the fastest intercity trains, however there will still be demand for travel between stations not served by HS2 but are currently on the WCML, in which case there is likely to be a case for them to travel at 100mph plus. Yes HS2 is all about capacity (with the added bonus of being a bit faster) however that does not mean that there will no longer be any IC demand from the existing network.

In the same way that XC is busy, even though it doesn't run into London but just between more minor cities and towns, post HS2 there will still be demand for IC services between places which currently benefit from intercity services and will not be served by HS2 or only one is served by HS2.

It should also be noted that HS2 is currently planed to be fully up and running in 20 years time, even with 2% per year growth that means that growth would be a little under 50% (or for every 100 people who currently get on at station A it will be 148 people). This then means that although the current flows may not quite make economic sense by the time of HS2 they could do so. If growth were a little higher at 3% growth (and still quite a bit lower than has been the case for the last few years) would be 80%, with 5% growth being 165% (or 265 passengers for every 100 now)

With the possibility that TOC's will not be trying to price people off overcrowded services (or at least trying to attract people to use their services) there could well be a lot of reasonably priced train fares which could well encourage rail passenger growth in the early years post HS2 opening.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,273
Accepted, you could see 125mph running on longef sections like Grantham-Newark - although what about somewhere that could have a local demand (through the Local Transport Plan process) such as Doncaster - Retford with places like Doncaster Carr, Rossington, Bawtry and Ranskill all either big enough to support a local service into Doncaster or with a wealthy enough local population to want connecting trains to say Meadowhall of Toton ?

It would be expected that most trains from Kings Cross on the ECML will likely terminate further south than Doncaster, with Doncaster recieving only a comparable service to what they recieve now (and Retford recieving lots of calls on the Doncaster trains).

There should be paths spare.... I think.

Bessacarr (is that what you mean by Doncaster Carr?) can be served by platforms on the joint line which should reduce conflicts with the ECML to similar to today's levels, which isn't much with that mass of flyovers going in all directions.

The other three places... Ranskill is a bit small judging by aerial photography and you could probably serve atleast one of the other two without eating up all your available paths... but I don't know.

EDIT:

There doesn't appear to be a practical place to put any new ECML stations between Peterborough and Retford.
Which is quite a long way.
(Any north Peterborough station would probably either be on the line to Spalding and in case would certainly be positioned on the section prior to the Stamford line diverging, which means there is plenty of trackwork there to support a station with some minor remodelling)
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
the fundamental point of HS2 is to release paths for stopping services - places like Rossington, Bircotes, Tuxford, North Peterborough, Yaxley, etc will be wanting stations on the ECML, Clay Cross and Ilkeston on the MML and similar places on the WCML

places like Doncaster Carr, Rossington, Bawtry and Ranskill

Stations at Tuxford etc? Is this an attempt to panic people into thinking that post-HS2 the "classic" services are going to become "hail and ride", stopping at every road end?

I can see the logic in Ilkeston and Clay Cross, but they'd presumably happen regardless (the Ilkeston line sees very little "Intercity" service anyway).

Since those are all journeys of under 100 miles or 1 hour, it's fairly clear what the dominent traffic pattern will be. What of Leicester-Sheffield, Peterborough-Leeds or Northampton-Manchester?

How much traffic is that? Peterborough still has a direct service to Sheffield/ Manchester/ Liverpool - I reckon there's scope for a direct service from East Anglia to West Yorkshire too (maybe giving Stansted/ Cambridge a direct link to "the north", rather than everything having to come from London).

Similarly, Leicester to Sheffield is presumably still a big enough market to justify a direct service, but the southern end of the route may be Thames Valley/ Bletchley/ Bedford (since the "East West" link will have opened by then).

Northampton hasn't had a proper Manchester service for some time, but the Trent Valley service may be extended further north (if HS2 isn't serving Stoke etc).

Hopefully HS2 will allow "classic" lines to provide new links at the southern end, rather than everything having to go into central London.
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,101
Location
Sheffield
Just to clarify, I'm just throwing my random thoughts about based upon my experience in the LTP and recent Transport Fund processes - I'm not a rail professional, but often get drawn into discussions over new stations, recent ones being Elland, Haigh (M1 J38 P&R), Oakenshaw and Bradley Park (M62 J25 P&R), plus discussion in both my current and previous job about Leeds Airport "rail" links.

It would be expected that most trains from Kings Cross on the ECML will likely terminate further south than Doncaster, with Doncaster recieving only a comparable service to what they recieve now (and Retford recieving lots of calls on the Doncaster trains).

Yes, I'd imagine that, gradually reducing the further north, with spare paths becoming attractive to local and freight services - extending rail freight at Doncaster could be a reasonable proposition.

There should be paths spare.... I think.

I'd hope so, given the money poured into the new backbone route - less paths further south I'd guess

Bessacarr (is that what you mean by Doncaster Carr?) can be served by platforms on the joint line which should reduce conflicts with the ECML to similar to today's levels, which isn't much with that mass of flyovers going in all directions.

No, sorry I was unclear - thinking of a new station next to the A6182 - to service the retail, office and leisure within a mile of a site potential for P&R to service Meadowhall HS2 - some "wealthier" commuter areas to the west and south east of Donny currently.

The other three places... Ranskill is a bit small judging by aerial photography and you could probably serve atleast one of the other two without eating up all your available paths... but I don't know.

Not so much Ranskill Village, but the catchment area around - again, some rich homes in the area who would otherwise need to drive to Doncaster, Retford or Worksop.

There doesn't appear to be a practical place to put any new ECML stations between Peterborough and Retford.
Which is quite a long way.

Nah, agreed, apart from as I suggested, Tuxford - for the catchment rather than the village

(Any north Peterborough station would probably either be on the line to Spalding and in case would certainly be positioned on the section prior to the Stamford line diverging, which means there is plenty of trackwork there to support a station with some minor remodelling)

Plenty of farm land for a P&R site too - some great potential as a terminus site for some express services to London
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Stations at Tuxford etc? Is this an attempt to panic people into thinking that post-HS2 the "classic" services are going to become "hail and ride", stopping at every road end?

Ha ha... You have never had to sit through Ward Forum meetings have you ;)

Seriously though, the people that travel currently from Doncaster and Retford live in these smaller places - a shorter trip to a free car park has a great attraction even for Mr Range Rover - picking up at several smaller places north of Peterborough then charging onwards to London could still deliver a few peak period services with realistically shorter overall commutes from home to office when you have a car park next to the platform rather than several minutes walk away after a unreliable journey into the urban locations of Doncaster, Retford, Peterborough etc... The average commuter is very easy to sway with a bad train experience back into the car
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
How much traffic is that? Peterborough still has a direct service to Sheffield/ Manchester/ Liverpool - I reckon there's scope for a direct service from East Anglia to West Yorkshire too (maybe giving Stansted/ Cambridge a direct link to "the north", rather than everything having to come from London).

Similarly, Leicester to Sheffield is presumably still a big enough market to justify a direct service, but the southern end of the route may be Thames Valley/ Bletchley/ Bedford (since the "East West" link will have opened by then).

Northampton hasn't had a proper Manchester service for some time, but the Trent Valley service may be extended further north (if HS2 isn't serving Stoke etc).

Hopefully HS2 will allow "classic" lines to provide new links at the southern end, rather than everything having to go into central London.

Someone ran a study a few years ago, analysing Norwich-Windermere as an example of the cross-country network in the country. The quickest route was via Liverpool Street, the Circle Line and Euston, but it cost twice the equivalent of a 'not via London' route. Essentially, that ammounts to Peterborough-Oxenholme. They identified seven routes (I gave the magazine issue away recently, but they passed variously through Leicester, Nottingham, Leeds or Newcastle; then Manchester, Lancaster or Carlisle). Speeding up the MML to 125 might help the Leicester or Nottingham options, but the biggest problems are delays around underdeveloped sections of the route.

Section 1, Norwich/Cambridge-Peterborough
It's slow, only just having its semaphore signalling replaced and dependent upon 158s and Turbostars. Speeding that route up and increasing capacity (perhaps with cascaded Voyagers after IEP comes in) would make it easier for the in-and-out traffic to travel directly to Peterborough.

Section 2, West Riding
Well, more a network than a section. Here's where a proper approach with HS2 might be really helpful. Get a lot of traffic running via Meadowhall and speed up the time it takes to cross Yorkshire, and that should lead to increased traffic. Similarly, speed up the routes in and out of Leeds (the Hambledon curve would have helped here, although it would isolate Wakefield). I would have preferred to see Sheffield Victoria in use for this, the Woodhead might have cut an hour from Nottingham-Manchester times, but that is presumably impossible.

Section 3, East Lancashire
This is why the western branch of HS2 ought to run through central Manchester, it would enable people to change there and travel northwards more easily. Hopefully, Manchester Airport can provide a similar facility, but I reckon that loses 10-30 minutes on a Sheffield-Preston journey compared with a through station at Piccadilly (the same applies to Bristol-Preston with Birmingham).

Section 4, Franchising
Why was the Norwich-Liverpool route not transferred to XC with most of the other Central Citylink routes? It would have made sense, since it is clearly an inter-regional express route, but for reasons which I have never understood, EMT got it. It's about time that was put right.

However, I reckon that HS2 will only serve to attract people towards the southern end. Especially if it results in 'via London' prices falling, and there's always the political concern that it has to be seen to succeed. Mind you, I'll add East Anglia-North West to the 'under-developed rail corridors' thread. I know a lot of people use it, and many more would use it if services were improved. I'll also look at domestic route from Norwich and Stansted Airports, just for comparison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There doesn't appear to be a practical place to put any new ECML stations between Peterborough and Retford.
Which is quite a long way.
(Any north Peterborough station would probably either be on the line to Spalding and in case would certainly be positioned on the section prior to the Stamford line diverging, which means there is plenty of trackwork there to support a station with some minor remodelling)

North Peterborough would probably have to be at Werrington, before the Joint Line diverges (previous proposals have included a flyover crossing the fast lines there to allow goods trains direct access from a reinstated down slow). Farther north, the only place that might gain an extra station is East Markham (or 'Tuxford Parkway' if you like) and AIUI it is smaller than Corsham or Wooton Bassatt. And if neither of those can have their station reopened, it's unlikely. Besides, that would rely on having regular stoppers traversing the route, which is unlikely to happen without more stations and would eat into goods paths. I suspect a few more of them is more likely than an all-shacks service.
 
Joined
27 Jan 2011
Messages
203
Location
North Staffs/Cheshire border
I've just read an article on the BBC News site that says that a property in Turweston nr Brackley (Phase One) has been valued at £0 for mortgage purposes, making it virtually unsellable.

I've had a look at the property on Google Maps and also where HS2 is to run near the village.

It's a gorgeous looking place in a beautiful setting, albeit requiring repairs and updating. It's on the opposite side of the village to the HS2 route and the article says it's 500m from the route which looks about right. The route runs to the north west of the property and at its nearest point is in a short stretch of 'green' tunnel. The A43 dual carriageway around Brackley runs a similar distance from the village to the west.

My own personal view is that the property in question probably suffers more noise pollution due to the prevailing wind from the existing dual carriageway, than it will from HS2. Whilst the plans for HS2 might slightly depress the value of such a property, I can't see that a mortgage company wouldn't take it on as security and suspect it might have something to do with it's condition etc.

If that cottage is unsaleable then the rest of the village, which is virtually all nearer the line, is too.

If I was in the market for that area I'd certainly have a look at the place and HS2 wouldn't put me off, but the A43 might.

We've a few properties round where I live that won't sell and have been left to get into poor repair and are in poor positions because of proximity to busy roads etc, but HS2 has nothing to do with it.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,856
Location
UK
Does that make every house in London near a rail or tube line worthless too? Houses backing on to the line, with gardens that afford a perfect view of trains flying by?

Once completed, I can't see how a property owner half a kilometre away is going to even notice the line is there let alone anything else. A bit more noise? Well, are aerodynamic high speed trains on modern track that noisy?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,664
Its like people in Church Fenton at the moment going mental, they already have a 4 track mainline running right through the middle of the village, with heavy freight. They have a campaign saying increased noise etc etc etc. Because they think the trains will pass them at 250mph.... lack of understanding of the project and overestimates particularly of the noise are hampering people to make their own decision.
 
Joined
27 Jan 2011
Messages
203
Location
North Staffs/Cheshire border
Does that make every house in London near a rail or tube line worthless too? Houses backing on to the line, with gardens that afford a perfect view of trains flying by?

Once completed, I can't see how a property owner half a kilometre away is going to even notice the line is there let alone anything else. A bit more noise? Well, are aerodynamic high speed trains on modern track that noisy?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

My grandparents lived in a bungalow backing onto the Uxbridge Met line when I was a lad. The line was in a cutting and my grandad used the land between his back fence and the cutting as an allotment. In fact he used the land behind his two neighbours as well. Their garden wasn't massively deep (say 40ft) but you couldn't hear or see the trains from indoors. As a little 'un it was great fun waiting for the steam hauled daily coal train and waving to the drivers.

Now I doubt HS2 drivers would even see someone waving but there seems to be a lot of ill founded hysteria around.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,856
Location
UK
I believe that trains on HS2 will likely be quieter. I wonder if (if true) this point has been mentioned to those who are worried about the noise. Likewise the lack of (direct) pollution from the electric trains whizzing by.
 

si404

Established Member
Joined
28 Dec 2012
Messages
1,267
If that cottage is unsaleable then the rest of the village, which is virtually all nearer the line, is too.
A lot of this comes from the homeowners themselves (though more the Chiltern-ites) over-hyping the scheme's destruction.

A lot of the annoyance in Missenden is lowered house prices and not being able to get compensation. Who were the muppets who lowered the house prices outside of the areas that will actually be effect? Not HS2, but the people who live near but not close!

When people walk out of sound level simulations (the people of Missenden won't be able to hear the line over the bypass) and call it a lie and then spread their disbelieve about the line's quietness all over the place, you don't do the homeowners of Missenden any favours. Likewise Brackley, Aylesbury, Wendover...

OK, it was on the original through-the-Old-Town tunnel route at Amersham, but I overheard someone half-a-mile away from the tunnel and up on the hill (the tunnel being at the bottom of the valley) complaining that HS2 took half the price of his house away. Why should it, unless there was a load of scaremongering about 'destroying' the area, etc, etc?

It's a problem they've rained on themselves in 90% of cases.
 
Joined
27 Jan 2011
Messages
203
Location
North Staffs/Cheshire border
Well we've lived with the WCML about half a mile west of us for the last 3 years or so and you only hear it when the winds in the right direction, even then it's not at an invasive level. The plans for HS2 have it running a few hundred yards even further west behind a small line of hills, so I doubt we'll be disturbed, if we're spared that long.

I bet the people in the up market, secured, hotel/golf course/housing development at Wychwood Park, just down the road are concerned though. Some are only a small field away from the WCML and the plans have the grade separated junctions roughly parallel with the housing. What price a 7 year old 6 bedroom footballers mini mansion with an annual £2,000 security and landscaping charge? Mind I guess they've got 15 years before building commences.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
Why was the Norwich-Liverpool route not transferred to XC with most of the other Central Citylink routes? It would have made sense, since it is clearly an inter-regional express route, but for reasons which I have never understood, EMT got it. It's about time that was put right

On a practical level, I wonder how much of the reason for this was because of the maths of splitting up the 158s and 170s. EMT got all of the ex-Central 158s, the 170s were split between LM and XC.

Regardless of my feelings of 100mph 170s on routes like the Chase Line, I can see the logic in trying to keep fleets "simple".

Operationally, this is the kind of route that needs to be run either from the middle or from both ends. EMT certainly cover the former category. They run other services on the route from Sheffield to Nottingham to Gratham, so have some parallel presence.

Practically, I don't know what difference it would make under XC (same stock, just a different colour scheme). As for it being an "inter-regional express route", EMT do run "Intercity" services to London, so it's not like leaving the route with a wholly-local TOC.

Really, it's an odd-ball route. Whoever you give Liverpool - Norwich to, it'll sit badly with them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top