High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[steamdrivenand]

Thanks
And you try telling Mancunians their city is on a spur. Heavens, they think London is the one on a spur

To be fair, Leeds is on a spur too.

Sheffield definitely isn't on a spur, but they're not happy. There again I suspect the South Yorkshire folk who complain about Meadowhall would probably complain if the line was due to run slap through the middle of Bramall Lane, the Crucible, the Winter Garden and the Yorkshire Relish factory

 

[swt_passenger]

nope - your recollection seems particular to you. I agree it is a somwhat confusing diagramme in the command paper; but it shows no northwards facing link back on HS2 Phase 2 north of Crewe and never has.

Now that I've had time I think I've worked out what I must have done - cos I was going mad thinking I'd been seeing things... I was reading up the whole western route from south to north, and probably didn't cotton on to the way route section HSM09 goes as far as Crewe, but then the next drawing in the sequence (if you are reading down the page) is the start of HSM10, but starts back down south of Crewe again, rather than being north of HSM09.

Teach me to read it all a bit too fast, sorry if I took a few people off on an unnecessary diversion...

 

[steamdrivenand]

They're not the easiest of things to read and north keeps wobbling about from page to page. You'd think they'd put some work into making it more readable to the general public. The pages are just as bad as Phase 1 and you'd have thought they'd have learned a bit by now and improved the presentation. Most off putting having a north/south railway depicted on screen as running east/west.

 

[JohnB57]

There again I suspect the South Yorkshire folk who complain about Meadowhall would probably complain if the line was due to run slap through the middle of Bramall Lane, the Crucible, the Winter Garden and the Yorkshire Relish factory

I think you might mean Hendersons Relish...

How long before you can set foot in Sheffield again?

 

[steamdrivenand]

I think you might mean Hendersons Relish...

How long before you can set foot in Sheffield again?

My father-in-law was a Sheffield lad and I was going to include The Sicey pub in the post, until I remembered it had already been knocked down.

I do love this bit from the spoof Hendo's website. It says about the factory 'And the water authorities often get upset as the plant uses 200 gallons of water to make one bottle of 284 ml. There are no by-products or smells, no rubbish is ever found in the bin around the back, and nobody is ever seen to go in or out of the building.
If you are still not scared, the postman delivers only one letter a week, on Monday morning'.

http://www.thewookie.co.uk/faceHair/hendos.htm

 

[D365]

Birmingham was in need of a new Spaghetti Junction of some sorts

Surely it won't be that complicated? :P

Thanks
And you try telling Mancunians their city is on a spur. Heavens, they think London is the one on a spur

London Euston (and St. Pancras) will be on spurs from the HS1/2 connector :P

 

[JohnB57]

I used to supply plastic bottles to Hendersons for sending the sauce by BFPO to overseas forces so back in the day, I visited them many a time.

We always have an active bottle plus a spare in the house. Wonderful stuff.

Anyway, thank goodness HS2 will have no impact at all on their factory! (Seemed only right to keep it on topic...)

 

[Train jaune]

Well said B57, I'm in two minds on my attitude to the news that HS2 won't be affecting my sauce bottles for at least the next 20 years

 

[LE Greys]

Well, we're not on much of anything.

I've just sent an FOI request to the DfT to see what consideration (if any) they have given to the effect the line will have on the southern ECML. I will let you know the result of that in due course.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Isn't the plan for southern ECML basically the same as the plan for WCML and maybe MML too. That is to cut all (or maybe most) fast long distance services, moving those passengers over to HS2. That'll leave paths free which will allow intensification of local services on southern portions of line as well as more freight paths.

That's the bit that people don't seem to have understood when they say that with extra travelling to the few HS2 stations the high speed advantage is negated and they may as well go on existing lines to London. Those existing lines will become slower with no express services, but more stoppers. So unless they want a very long journey into London people will opt for HS2. That's where the volume of passengers is going to come from for the new line. Trains on all three main lines south of HS2 that run into London will provide much better services to passengers who currently watch fast trains whisk by using paths that could ease their overcrowding. One of the clever things about designing HS2 the way they have is that they can 'funnel' long distance travellers from all three London bound main lines into one fast line because the stations on HS2 serve areas that currently pump passengers onto WCML, ECML and MML.

 

[IanXC]

Well, we're not on much of anything.

I've just sent an FOI request to the DfT to see what consideration (if any) they have given to the effect the line will have on the southern ECML. I will let you know the result of that in due course.

I've seen a document looking at service improvements once services are removed from classic to HS2 lins, I'll have a dig when I get home.

 

[JohnB57]

That's the bit that people don't seem to have understood when they say that with extra travelling to the few HS2 stations the high speed advantage is negated and they may as well go on existing lines to London. Those existing lines will become slower with no express services, but more stoppers. So unless they want a very long journey into London people will opt for HS2.

This is the nub of my confusion where HS2 is concerned. Is it about high speed or capacity? The answer in BCR terms is, of course, both.

I accept your reasoning about slower services, but if you live in, say Grantham or even Peterborough (or on EC, anywhere south of York really) and already commute into London, how will you feel about having to take a much slower service without any viable high speed option? I would suggest that if all EC, MML and WC services are inhibited by more stops or just slower timings, this will be a deliberate move to push people onto HS2, in the same way that many Kent services were slowed after the Javelins were introduced. I can't see this going down too well.

 

[Martin222002]

In regards to services on the ECML and MML after HS2 phase 2 has opened, you have to remember that between then and now there are plans to increase capacity on those routes, and that the cities of Peterborough and Leicester will still warrant fast services from London.

For the ECML Network Rail wants to upgrade the line to support 8 long distance tph (West Yorkshire, North East & Scotland).

South of Peterborough the ECML will see an increase in capacity with the start of Thameslink services in 2018. In the peak this will see, 4tph to Peterborough (2 from Kings Cross & 2 from Thameslink), 6tph to Cambridge (2 non-stop from Kings Cross, 4 from Thameslink, 2 fast & 2 semi-fast), 6tph to Welwyn Garden City (2 from Moorgate, 2 from Kings Cross & 2 from Thameslink), 8tph to Gordon Hill/Hertford North (all from Moorgate) and 2tph to Stevenage via Hertford North (from Moorgate).

In terms of what could change on the ECML after HS2 phase 2 opens in my opinion would be more calls in the Long Distance services added for Peterborough (were potential all service could call), Grantham, Nerwark North Gate, and (1-2 tph at) Retford. The only station south of Peterborough being served being Stevenage, so that the majority of services from Peterborough run non-stop.

A similar situation applies to the MML, where Network Rail is investigating bring back 4 tracks from London to Kettering in addition to electrification will increase capacity north of Bedford to support 6tph from the MML St Pancras platforms (2 semi-fast tph and 4 fast tph south of Leicester). As well as this from 2018 Thameslink will see 16tph in the peak south of Bedford.

As with Peterborough, Leicester will still warrant fast services to London after HS2 phase 2 has opened. In my opinion the most likely outcome would be either, one call added to each of the 4 long distance services south of Leicester (1 calling at Market Harborough (as now), 1 at Kettering, 1 at Wellingborough, & 1 at Bedford), or 2 trains continuing to run non-stop from Leicester and 2 calling at additional stations south of Leicester out of the 4 long distance services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I accept your reasoning about slower services, but if you live in, say Grantham or even Peterborough (or on EC, anywhere south of York really) and already commute into London, how will you feel about having to take a much slower service without any viable high speed option? I would suggest that if all EC, MML and WC services are inhibited by more stops or just slower timings, this will be a deliberate move to push people onto HS2, in the same way that many Kent services were slowed after the Javelins were introduced. I can't see this going down too well.

This is where things get confusing with the ECML. As slowing down could mean anything from more calls south of Peterborough, or not running non-stop from York to London. I would assume the latter, as HS2 services will effectively replace the current non-stop and fast services from York to London, and would allow calls at places like Peterborough and Grantham to be added.

You could have a calling patter between Doncaster and Kings Cross with 8tph like this:

2tph Doncaster-Peterborough-Kings Cross
2tph Doncaster-Newark North Gate-Peterborough-Kings Cross
2tph Doncaster-Grantham-Peterborugh-Kings Cross
2tph Doncaster-Retford-Newark North Gate-Grantham-Peterborough-Stevenage-Kings Cross

 

[jon0844]

For the new Thameslink franchise, it's fair to say there will be many slow/semi-fast trains to Peterborough just as there are now. For the Intercity franchise, besides possibly having all trains stop at Stevenage, I can't see any additional stops being created to make it any slower than it is today.

All I can see is that more services will stop at more existing Intercity stations that might be skipped today, not that they'll start stopping at the smaller stations and end up taking days to arrive in London!

 

[joeykins82]

I think that people are generally happy to see a slightly slower service if it is made more frequent; would you rather see 1 train per hour that takes 1h40 to reach its destination or a train every 15 minutes taking 2h (which, by stopping at all major intermediate stations also increases the journey opportunities from that service)?

 

[tbtc]

For the new Thameslink franchise, it's fair to say there will be many slow/semi-fast trains to Peterborough just as there are now. For the Intercity franchise, besides possibly having all trains stop at Stevenage, I can't see any additional stops being created to make it any slower than it is today.

All I can see is that more services will stop at more existing Intercity stations that might be skipped today, not that they'll start stopping at the smaller stations and end up taking days to arrive in London!

That's the way I see it.

I don't think that there's anything to worry about "the southern end of the ECML" as the current non-stop services from London to Doncaster/ York (etc) are of no benefit to those in places in Peterborough.

Taking the fastest trains out of the equation will free up space for more trains to stop at the current Intercity stations - as jonmorris0844 says (which isn't the same as stopping London - Yorkshire trains at every local station).

There's maybe also then more room (over Welwyn) for additional Cambridge services, or for more stops at places like Grantham which should improve connections to Lincolnshire stations.

 

[HSTEd]

There are only 18 trains a day that don't stop south of Doncaster.
(I looked it up)
You won't get more than one extra hourly intercity train out of that, and you won't get that if you want to use the space for more Cambridge trains.

 

[tbtc]

There are only 18 trains a day that don't stop south of Doncaster.
(I looked it up)
You won't get more than one extra hourly intercity train out of that, and you won't get that if you want to use the space for more Cambridge trains.

But the speed differential eats up paths - taking the fastest trains out of the equation will mean more than eighteen paths freed up for "100mph" services.

 

[HSTEd]

But the speed differential eats up paths - taking the fastest trains out of the equation will mean more than eighteen paths freed up for "100mph" services.

But 100mph London Bound trains don't go north of Peterborough so there are only two out of the InterCity stations that will benefit, so it is a bit disengenuous to claim that this will improve the service to them overall.

In reality it will have effectively no impact on the IC service to the Southern ECML.

 

[tbtc]

But 100mph London Bound trains don't go north of Peterborough so there are only two out of the InterCity stations that will benefit, so it is a bit disengenuous to claim that this will improve the service to them overall.

In reality it will have effectively no impact on the IC service to the Southern ECML.

The EC. HT/ GC trains stopping at Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark/ Retford may have 100mph top speeds, but they certainly aren't consistently running at that speed. They are getting caught up by the "fast" service behind them, which limits the scope for further stops at these stations.

At the moment places like Grantham are dependent upon long distance paths, rather than getting the actual service that they justify.

 

[HSTEd]

The EC. HT/ GC trains stopping at Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark/ Retford may have 100mph top speeds, but they certainly aren't consistently running at that speed. They are getting caught up by the "fast" service behind them, which limits the scope for further stops at these stations.

At the moment places like Grantham are dependent upon long distance paths, rather than getting the actual service that they justify.

....

Don't the EC, HT and GC trains all run at 125mph?

And when people around Grantham hear things like "actual service they justify" rather than "relying on long distance paths" they hear the telltale sound of a 365 replacing a Class 91.

That is what your talking about aren't you?

 

[JohnB57]

And when people around Grantham hear things like "actual service they justify" rather than "relying on long distance paths" they hear the telltale sound of a 365 replacing a Class 91.

I heard tbtc's comment as "Grantham deserves better". Sounds like you heard the opposite.

 

[LE Greys]

In regards to services on the ECML and MML after HS2 phase 2 has opened, you have to remember that between then and now there are plans to increase capacity on those routes, and that the cities of Peterborough and Leicester will still warrant fast services from London.

For the ECML Network Rail wants to upgrade the line to support 8 long distance tph (West Yorkshire, North East & Scotland).

South of Peterborough the ECML will see an increase in capacity with the start of Thameslink services in 2018. In the peak this will see, 4tph to Peterborough (2 from Kings Cross & 2 from Thameslink), 6tph to Cambridge (2 non-stop from Kings Cross, 4 from Thameslink, 2 fast & 2 semi-fast), 6tph to Welwyn Garden City (2 from Moorgate, 2 from Kings Cross & 2 from Thameslink), 8tph to Gordon Hill/Hertford North (all from Moorgate) and 2tph to Stevenage via Hertford North (from Moorgate).

In terms of what could change on the ECML after HS2 phase 2 opens in my opinion would be more calls in the Long Distance services added for Peterborough (were potential all service could call), Grantham, Nerwark North Gate, and (1-2 tph at) Retford. The only station south of Peterborough being served being Stevenage, so that the majority of services from Peterborough run non-stop.

A similar situation applies to the MML, where Network Rail is investigating bring back 4 tracks from London to Kettering in addition to electrification will increase capacity north of Bedford to support 6tph from the MML St Pancras platforms (2 semi-fast tph and 4 fast tph south of Leicester). As well as this from 2018 Thameslink will see 16tph in the peak south of Bedford.

As with Peterborough, Leicester will still warrant fast services to London after HS2 phase 2 has opened. In my opinion the most likely outcome would be either, one call added to each of the 4 long distance services south of Leicester (1 calling at Market Harborough (as now), 1 at Kettering, 1 at Wellingborough, & 1 at Bedford), or 2 trains continuing to run non-stop from Leicester and 2 calling at additional stations south of Leicester out of the 4 long distance services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This is where things get confusing with the ECML. As slowing down could mean anything from more calls south of Peterborough, or not running non-stop from York to London. I would assume the latter, as HS2 services will effectively replace the current non-stop and fast services from York to London, and would allow calls at places like Peterborough and Grantham to be added.

You could have a calling patter between Doncaster and Kings Cross with 8tph like this:

2tph Doncaster-Peterborough-Kings Cross
2tph Doncaster-Newark North Gate-Peterborough-Kings Cross
2tph Doncaster-Grantham-Peterborugh-Kings Cross
2tph Doncaster-Retford-Newark North Gate-Grantham-Peterborough-Stevenage-Kings Cross

I reckon it's going to be more like this:

Nix two of the above to allow for extra paths through Welwyn for outer suburbans.
1tph Doncaster-Newark North Gate-Peterborough-Kings Cross (from Newcastle)
4tph Doncaster-Retford-Newark North Gate-Grantham-Peterborough-Stevenage-Kings Cross (from Leeds, York and Hull)
1tph Newark North Gate-Grantham-Peterborough-Stevenage-Kings Cross (from Lincoln).

King's Cross will look decidedly empty, with all the suburban trains running down Thameslink or to Moorgate and absolutely nothing from Scotland.

 

[tbtc]

Don't the EC, HT and GC trains all run at 125mph?

Not when they are stopping at intermediate stations.

The point I'm making is that on a frequent railway (like the ECML) any train that stops at a local station like Grantham/ Newark/ Retford is quickly caught up by the "fast" train behind, which limits the amount of services that can stop there.

The fact that these are 125mph trains is irrelevant - the ones which stop have a slower speed than that.

Taking the "first stop York" services out of the ECML equation and you've got a lot more space for improved local services.

 

[steamdrivenand]

I reckon it's going to be more like this:

Nix two of the above to allow for extra paths through Welwyn for outer suburbans.
1tph Doncaster-Newark North Gate-Peterborough-Kings Cross (from Newcastle)
4tph Doncaster-Retford-Newark North Gate-Grantham-Peterborough-Stevenage-Kings Cross (from Leeds, York and Hull)
1tph Newark North Gate-Grantham-Peterborough-Stevenage-Kings Cross (from Lincoln).

King's Cross will look decidedly empty, with all the suburban trains running down Thameslink or to Moorgate and absolutely nothing from Scotland.

That would certainly make GNERs old coach 'tag line' look a bit sick :roll:

 

[LE Greys]

That's the way I see it.

I don't think that there's anything to worry about "the southern end of the ECML" as the current non-stop services from London to Doncaster/ York (etc) are of no benefit to those in places in Peterborough.

Taking the fastest trains out of the equation will free up space for more trains to stop at the current Intercity stations - as jonmorris0844 says (which isn't the same as stopping London - Yorkshire trains at every local station).

There's maybe also then more room (over Welwyn) for additional Cambridge services, or for more stops at places like Grantham which should improve connections to Lincolnshire stations.

I can see how that point of view might come about, but as I see it, it's wrong.

• If you're travelling to Scotland or Newcastle, it's obviously good to have through trains (especially if they stop at Peterborough or Doncaster)
• HSTs and 225s have buffets and big luggage racks, would they have them without Scotland passengers?
• The line saw massive investment by BR to speed up travel to Scotland
• Travel to London is much more commuter-based, so trains would be designed accordingly (higher seating densities)
• More widely, commuting would suburbanise the local economy, increasing house prices and probably reducing local jobs in everything except tertiary industry (mainly retail)
• Commuting would tie the local economy much more in with London
• Finally, there's the question of spending priorities. Does a future government invest in one of the two main lines to Scotland or a duplicate route to Yorkshire and Lincolnshire?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would certainly make GNERs old coach 'tag line' look a bit sick :roll:

It's if the Underground becomes 'St Pancras-King's Cross' that worries me!

 

[si404]

Nix two of the above to allow for extra paths through Welwyn for outer suburbans.

Which won't go on Thameslink, as that's full (unless they extend Crossrail 2 to WGC, which is highly unlikely), but that doesn't really matter.

1tph Doncaster-Newark North Gate-Peterborough-Kings Cross (from Newcastle)

Edinburgh (and beyond), not Newcastle. While obviously not the quickest service anymore, it looks like the EC services between Newcastle and Edi will stay, the XC will be replaced with TPX to Liverpool.

4tph Doncaster-Retford-Newark North Gate-Grantham-Peterborough-Stevenage-Kings Cross (from Leeds, York and Hull)

That's a bit overkill, especially given the 2tph extra at Newark, and the 1tph extra at Grantham. Also, no Sunderland?
I'd imagine something more like:
1tph Doncaster - Retford - Newark - Peterborough - Stevenage - Kings Cross (from Leeds)
1tph Doncaster - Retford - Newark - Grantham - Peterborough - Stevenage - Kings Cross (from York)
1tph Newark - Grantham - Peterborough - Stevenage - Kings Cross (from Lincoln)
1tph Doncaster - Grantham - Peterborough - Kings Cross (from Sunderland)
1tph Doncaster - Grantham - Peterborough - Kings Cross (from Hull)
1tph Doncaster - Newark - Peterborough - Kings Cross (from Scotland)

This gives Stevenage 3tph, Peterborough 3tph non-stop, Grantham 4tph, Newark 4tph and Retford 2tph. Seems about right.

King's Cross will look decidedly empty, with all the suburban trains running down Thameslink or to Moorgate and absolutely nothing from Scotland.

It will certainly look empty, but there will still be suburban trains (even if CR2 runs to WGC. Only Crossrail 3 could allow a full transfer of suburban services) and ex-Scotland trains. The role will have completely changed - direct (but slower) services to Scottish destinations, Intercity services to the second-tier cities of Hull and Sunderland, fast regional services to the east East Midlands (that also extend into Yorkshire, giving a slower alternate route) and commuter/regional services through Herts into Fenland.

 

[Chris125]

Apologies if it's been mentioned already but the HS2 economic case does include an analysis of released capacity - while purely indicative, to help HS2 model the potential benefits, and not an actual attempt at a timetable it does suggest for example that Leeds offers the greatest potential for releasing capacity.

Chris

 

[Martin222002]

Apologies if it's been mentioned already but the HS2 economic case does include an analysis of released capacity - while purely indicative, to help HS2 model the potential benefits, and not an actual attempt at a timetable it does suggest for example that Leeds offers the greatest potential for releasing capacity.

Chris

I have to agree with Chris here.

What is there are only suggestions, but one thing which makes me pretty much ignore this when it comes to potential furture service patterns post HS2 is that it only has 2tph going to Northampton for the majority of the day, which would actually be a reduction in service from today. The suggested calling patterns for the southern WCML are also very differnet to those proposed by Network Rail and Passenger Focus, in this report.

Going back to the ECML in particualr. I really don't understand why it has be suggested that XC services should be terminated at Newcastle and basically replaced by extending TPE services to replace them. I can't see any benefits in doing so.

 

[IanXC]

Well, we're not on much of anything.

I've just sent an FOI request to the DfT to see what consideration (if any) they have given to the effect the line will have on the southern ECML. I will let you know the result of that in due course.

I've seen a document looking at service improvements once services are removed from classic to HS2 lins, I'll have a dig when I get home.

Apologies if it's been mentioned already but the HS2 economic case does include an analysis of released capacity - while purely indicative, to help HS2 model the potential benefits, and not an actual attempt at a timetable it does suggest for example that Leeds offers the greatest potential for releasing capacity.

Chris

Thats the document I was thinking of.