High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[YorkshireBear]

HS2 is a high-speed network of end-to-end services. Trains will go A-B, B-C and A-C. Passengers for C will not have to sit at B, ever, as this defeats the object. So all stations are terminii by definition.

Sorry if i misunderstand.
But what are Old Oak Common? Birmingham International? East midlands/South yorkshrie parkway. The services to newcastle that stop at leeds? The services to scotland that stop at manchester?
I dont see how people will never stop at intermediate stations?

 

[HSTEd]

HS2 is a high-speed network of end-to-end services. Trains will go A-B, B-C and A-C. Passengers for C will not have to sit at B, ever, as this defeats the object. So all stations are terminii by definition.

Which means you fill the network up with trains that will never be full while only providing marginal service to each of your destinations.

Secondly, to remove conflicts from a through station you would need to double or possibly triple the number of tracks for a distance equal to the acceleration distance of an HS2 train, which is likely to be of the order of 10 miles at least. However, the "main lines" would still need have a 250mph alignment, which constrains where the station goes.

And yet the proposed phase 1 alignment is not built for 360kph running throughout, indeed large parts of it will only be aligned to allow 250kph running (in the approaches to OOC), and it has been calculated that a PSR of 250kph in the approach to OOC would mean that relatively short "slip" tracks would be neccesary. (This is from the capacity study published on the HS2 website).

A PSR of 250kph was calculated as adiding ~30s to the journey for trains that don't stop there.

And since we are not constrained by the requirement for 360kph alignments in urban areas, since large parts of the route are only going to be rated for 250kph anyway we can be far more flexible with the route.

So, why not have a terminus on a triangle? You get better alignment choices, only have constraints at one end of the station, you can have a cross-platform concourse fronting a street and you don't lose any functionality

It becomes impractical to run high speed services through the station since the driver has to fight his way down either the train or the platform that is likely filled with hundreds of disembarking and embarking passengers.
Through stations can get away with a couple of minutes of station dwell, reversals likely increase that to nearly ten.

Also you have to remember that current swingnose crossings are only good for ~180kph on the diverging line, which means you are going to have to slow down at the delta anyway depending on which route has been built as the "through" line.

 

[Chris125]

All stations? I think you'll find Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange, Manchester outskirts, East Midlands and S Yorks stations are all through stations.

As always its about striking the correct balance between cost and benefit - note that both OOC and Manchester Airport will be on slower sections of line approaching termini while Birmingham Interchange, East Midlands and South Yorkshire stations will be outside urban areas.

Chris

 

[YorkshireBear]

Apparently there was an unbias meeting for HS2 last night in midlands. 4 speakers against HS2 1 for HS2. And the 4 speakers against refused to accept that trains can travel off the high speed network to other destinations, and that it will ever get past Birmingham.... Source is only a journalist on Twitter though.

 

[nick.c]

My best guess for the North West England section still has the route east of Stoke - I can't see a station being sited within Staffordshire at all. My bet is that the final route is closer to the Peak District than most people envisage (although obviously it won't actually touch the National Park area).

Agree that if the line goes east of Stoke then well to the east would be easier (though still challenging) than a route that skirts around the eastern edge of Stoke.

I'm sure I read somewhere that HS2 Ltd thought the original Phase 1 route plans were published slightly prematurely - hence the numerous subsequent revisions. I think the hope is that the Phase 2 alignments will have been more thoroughly engineered before publication. If there were a number of front-running route proposals, it'll be interesting if these alternatives are also published.

 

[Padav]

@nick.c: "If there were a number of front-running route proposals, it'll be interesting if these alternatives are also published."

It would be nice to think that a number of proposed routes, exhibiting varying mixes of benefits and faults, could be placed in the public domain, for rational and objective deliberation.

Sadly that won't be possible because common sense and rational behaviour are the very first human traits discarded when it comes to matters of this nature.

At the merest hint of a route passing in close proximity to any particular community, a protest rally, petition (boasting all sorts of seemingly credible reasons why the aforesaid route is a very bad idea) signed by everyone living in the rumoured area and accompanied by obligatory lynchmob, braying for blood outside the office of the local MP, emerges almost overnight.

Property blight means there will only be one preferred phase 2 route published initially, although the alternatives discarded along the way will come out eventually. The route coming close (let's say less than 1000m distant) will be seen as bad news all round by those affected and it is clearly a physical impossibility for the chosen route to avoid everyone (by at least 1000m either side).

I've already posted my best guestimate for the Western Arm of phase 2 (linking in NW.England) on another HS2 related thread but I'll add it here again for interest

 

[tbtc]

I'm sure I read somewhere that HS2 Ltd thought the original Phase 1 route plans were published slightly prematurely - hence the numerous subsequent revisions. I think the hope is that the Phase 2 alignments will have been more thoroughly engineered before publication

Although the Government are damned if they do and damned if they don't here.

Fail to make amendments in the face of a local lynch mob and they are "arrogant" and ignoring the countryside (etc).

Make any amendments and they are blamed for not thinking their initial plans through.

There will always be someone living within half a mile of any High Speed route - what can you do?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Although the Government are damned if they do and damned if they don't here.

Fail to make amendments in the face of a local lynch mob and they are "arrogant" and ignoring the countryside (etc).

Make any amendments and they are blamed for not thinking their initial plans through.

There will always be someone living within half a mile of any High Speed route - what can you do?

This proposal left my lecturer speechless the other day

Building a high speed line costs something like 25 million per mile overground or 100 million per mile in tunnel. Don't build any in tunnels and use 25 million of the 75 million per mile saved to bribe locals. Thus saving 50 million per mile. Done.



On another note, who would be angry if you sent the Leeds HS2 in on a second level to current leeds station and re did the roof, its a miserable station and the roof is the main reaosn in my opinion?

 

[Rational Plan]

This proposal left my lecturer speechless the other day

Building a high speed line costs something like 25 million per mile overground or 100 million per mile in tunnel. Don't build any in tunnels and use 25 million of the 75 million per mile saved to bribe locals. Thus saving 50 million per mile. Done.



On another note, who would be angry if you sent the Leeds HS2 in on a second level to current leeds station and re did the roof, its a miserable station and the roof is the main reaosn in my opinion?

Building a two level Leeds station would be hideously expensive, especially if you wanted to keep the line open. Plus if you think the existing station roof is ugly, wait until you see a superelevated 600m long station on humungous pillars.

The station would need a new concourse between the existing station platforms and the new platforms. Considering the station is already on a viaduct, you'd be effective building a lovely concrete wall across the city. Not popular.

I'd be very surprised if Crown retail park was not chosen as the new station site. My solution would still have it as a terminal station, but with a new mini crossrail for Leeds linking the two stations with new eight carriage underground stations and new tunnels linking the lines to the West, South and East, which would also cater for the growth in commuting into Leeds and allow for a better distribution of passengers across Leeds.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Another point rasied in the lecture. HS2 has a flimsy buisness case. So does running all of Northerns routes. Thats where the government come in to subsidise. So whats wrong with the government building HS2? If it had a good buisness case then private companies would build it. It hasn't so the government is. Simples. Economic buisness case isn't everything when it comes to infrastructure.

 

[tbtc]

whats wrong with the government building HS2? If it had a good buisness case then private companies would build it. It hasn't so the government is

Presumably all roads have weak business cases because no private companies are competing to build private roads?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Presumably all roads have weak business cases because no private companies are competing to build private roads?

Is that a question? Most of them do not no. Its the social benefits that get roads built which is why the government build them. Im argueing that should be the same case for HS2.

 

[The Ham]

I have an intresting question about HS2.

Before phase 2 is built all the services north of Birmingham will run on the clasic network, is it likely that some of these will continue to run north of Birminham (to pick up passenges from the clasic network between the HS2 stations once phase 2 is built. If so are there any other locations where a junction onto the HS lines would be of benefit to link to the clasic network and do you think such junctions will be built?

As at least in the early years while the HS network will have plenty of paths north of Birmingham it would attract more passengers to use it and increasing the busines case for building it.

For istance you could have a train leave Manchester and run over the clasic lines to then join with another service at Birmingham, then run fast to London as well as the faster HS only services from Manchester. As although there will be those who want to get to London Quickley from Manchester who will use HS2, there will be other stations that would still require an express service to London or to Manchester which are located between the HS2 stations.

 

[tbtc]

Is that a question? Most of them do not no. Its the social benefits that get roads built which is why the government build them. Im argueing that should be the same case for HS2.

I was agreeing with you - just making the point that if you boil everything down to "economics" then most things we do aren't justifiable. Roads have social benefits, as does HS2, as you say.

A funny interview with the Mayor of Doncaster on BBC Radio Sheffield this morning, claiming that HS2 is a Leeds-based conspiracy to blight South Yorkshire... #fruitloop

 

[ainsworth74]

A funny interview with the Mayor of Doncaster on BBC Radio Sheffield this morning, claiming that HS2 is a Leeds-based conspiracy to blight South Yorkshire... #fruitloop

I wonder if he subscribes to the idea that HS2 is also a Manchester based conspiracy to sideline Liverpool?

 

[Batman]

I wonder if he subscribes to the idea that HS2 is also a Manchester based conspiracy to sideline Liverpool?

Or that it's a Birmingham conspiracy to sideline Coventry?

All the Coventry MP's are anti-HS2.

 

[LE Greys]

Or that it's a Birmingham conspiracy to sideline Coventry?

All the Coventry MP's are anti-HS2.

Or (in a bit of self-mockery) an evil WCML policy to kill the ECML!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was agreeing with you - just making the point that if you boil everything down to "economics" then most things we do aren't justifiable. Roads have social benefits, as does HS2, as you say.

Precisely!

To be a bit more serious, the big problem for much of the West Riding (and the West Midlands for that matter) would be any lack of connections under the same roof at major stations. Like all such problems, it's solvable, but expensive.

 

[nick.c]

Might be of interest - GreenGauge 21 has just published on their website several documents from 2009 looking at the potential of High Speed Rail. Includes various technical discussions plus (in Final-Report-Appendices-B-J I think) comparisons of different Anglo-Scottish route options. Certainly worth a look.

 

[HSTEd]

Might be of interest - GreenGauge 21 has just published on their website several documents from 2009 looking at the potential of High Speed Rail. Includes various technical discussions plus (in Final-Report-Appendices-B-J I think) comparisons of different Anglo-Scottish route options. Certainly worth a look.

Apparently they think that we will have two high speed lines to Scotland, so it is rather pie-in-the-sky.

They also seem to think that the Newcastle route won't be significantly faster to Edinburgh than trains are today which is patently ridiculous. You could easily cut an hour off the journey time, which is hardly "insignificant".
It also proposes gauge clearance of the line between Edinburgh and Newcastle which would be absurdly expensive.

EDIT:

They assume that any route via Leeds would be via Manchester as well... this document really is out of date

 

[jopsuk]

A funny interview with the Mayor of Doncaster on BBC Radio Sheffield this morning, claiming that HS2 is a Leeds-based conspiracy to blight South Yorkshire... #fruitloop

He's a nutter though, on pretty much every topic you care to mention.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry to bring the thread up again. Im just struggling with some research. Are classic compatible units going to split on route or run as shorter sets for the entire distance?

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Sorry to bring the thread up again. Im just struggling with some research. Are classic compatible units going to split on route or run as shorter sets for the entire distance?

As they used to say on a previous season of Q.I.


"Nobody knows"

 

[Chris125]

Sorry to bring the thread up again. Im just struggling with some research. Are classic compatible units going to split on route or run as shorter sets for the entire distance?

I believe that's the idea - hence why the fleet made is up of only a few 260m sets, most being 200m and so able to operate in multiple on HS2.

Chris

 

[Philip Elliott]

There no plans to split en route.

 

[The Ham]

There no plans to split en route.

But that would take up more paths on the southern section.

 

[Deerfold]

As they used to say on a previous season of Q.I.


"Nobody knows"

Or rather, lots of people know, but they don't all know the same thing.

No doubt some of them are right.

 

[HSTEd]

But that would take up more paths on the southern section.

Indeed, this is the point.

This means they can claim its a huge success by saying that the line is "75% full" when it really isn't since they are throwing paths away.

It also gives them an excuse to hike the fares on it still further.

 

[Chris125]

Indeed, this is the point.

This means they can claim its a huge success by saying that the line is "75% full" when it really isn't since they are throwing paths away.

It also gives them an excuse to hike the fares on it still further.

What are you on about? :roll:

 

[HSTEd]

What are you on about? :roll:

It is not in the interests of the government to build a high speed route that does not appear to be heavily used, they would be open to charges of it being a white elephant.

So they will endeavour to fill up all the slots available on the line even if they are effectively wasting slots by running short classic compatible trains independently rather than in 400m formations. (This way they can say the line is 90% full or some other nonsense even if the trains are 200m CC trains)

And if you actually think about it, the number of paths disrupted by having to wait for a late component of a lashup is actually the same as that component running independently late and missing its path. One.

Either way one train has missed its path, and if half the formation is very late you could just send the section that has arrived on time onto the core and cut back the late section of the train to somewhere like Birmingham International and transfer the passengers to a regular service.

 

[Geezertronic]

Where would they split services to avoid the possibility of delaying services behind?