High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[WatcherZero]

That is where you are completely wrong, there is widespread opposition around the country and will be a lot more when the phase 2 alignments are announced. I would hardly call Staffordshire County council a bunch of southern nimbies...

Of the approx 55,000 responses to the HS2 consultation nearly 3/5ths came from the route and 15,000 were in the form of a chain letter from the Chilterns.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Given that the paper consultations were only handed out to people on the route and that most would consider doing it online then any 'consultation' will favour the views of the local area. It does not reflect the national view.

 

[WatcherZero]

Given that the paper consultations were only handed out to people on the route and that most would consider doing it online then any 'consultation' will favour the views of the local area. It does not reflect the national view.

Theres a consultation response map in the document where you can see almost everywhere in the country submitted 1-100 responses (except Scotland outside the central belt and Northern Ireland not unsurprisingly) However only along the route were more than 500 responses but only in the Chilterns and around Leamington Spa did they recieve 1000-4000 submissions per square.

22,800 used the online form
12,800 used a paper based response form from a roadshow
4,200 were letters or emails
43 were detailed reports
14,910 were chain letters.

 

[HSTEd]

Really - my information is that the cost per metre for deep core tunnelling is approx 5 fold its equivalent surface construction.

Extending tunnels ad-infinitum is not cost effective (for the taxpayer picking up the bill) and in many cases is not even feasible due to topographical and engineering constraints.

And the anti-HS2 brigade located in Burton Green & surrounding areas are suggesting a new, additional, tunnel

Well... a surprisingly small amount of the cost of HS2 is actually going on the track, the big killers are city centre stations and the like with all the enormously expensive and unpopular compulsory purchase and demolitions.

Of course if the entire route was covered you could potentially go for Platform Edge Doors and have driver less trains since it would be an entirely controlled environment....

Although the driver can't really do anything at 320kph anyway since by the tie he identifies an obstruction and activates the emergency brake in most cases its far too late to stop.

 

[Padav]

@Philip Elliott: "That is where you are completely wrong, there is widespread opposition around the country and will be a lot more when the phase 2 alignments are announced. I would hardly call Staffordshire County council a bunch of southern nimbies..."

Nice try but to put it bluntly - pull the other one!!!

The analysis of consultation responses referred to by @WatcherZero illustrates the remarkable correlation between proximity to the approved ROUTE3 pathway and HS2 opposition. You only need to take a glance at the maps on page 13 of the report (you can download it here) to grasp this reality - and before anyone claims that the report is a self-interest driven fabrication, you can view an independent peer review of the analysis here

I live in Alderley Edge - a village that will soon erupt into a predictable outbreak of panic induced, ill informed claptrap, masquerading as reasoned debate, when the phase 2 plans are announced later this year, yet right now, ignorance is bliss and not a peep is heard about the project - out of sight = out of mind.

I repeat: "The vociferous anti-HS2 lobby IS almost exclusively located in a narrow corridor directly adjacent to the approved ROUTE3 pathway"

 

[Donny Dave]

Theres a consultation response map in the document where you can see almost everywhere in the country submitted 1-100 responses (except Scotland outside the central belt and Northern Ireland not unsurprisingly) However only along the route were more than 500 responses but only in the Chilterns and around Leamington Spa did they recieve 1000-4000 submissions per square.

22,800 used the online form
12,800 used a paper based response form from a roadshow
4,200 were letters or emails
43 were detailed reports
14,910 were chain letters.

Nice try but to put it bluntly - pull the other one!!!

The analysis of consultation responses referred to by @WatcherZero illustrates the remarkable correlation between proximity to the approved ROUTE3 pathway and HS2 opposition. You only need to take a glance at the maps on page 13 of the report (you can download it here) to grasp this reality - and before anyone claims that the report is a self-interest driven fabrication, you can view an independent peer review of the analysis here

I live in Alderley Edge - a village that will soon erupt into a predictable outbreak of panic induced, ill informed claptrap, masquerading as reasoned debate, when the phase 2 plans are announced later this year, yet right now, ignorance is bliss and not a peep is heard about the project - out of sight = out of mind.

I repeat: "The vociferous anti-HS2 lobby IS almost exclusively located in a narrow corridor directly adjacent to the approved ROUTE3 pathway"

If the DfT had actually advertised the fact there was a consulation about HS2 being done, then they will have got a lot more responses. I suspect that most of the people who responded but don't live near the chosen route are railway enthusiasts.

I suspect the DfT don't want to advertise that the very expensive WCRM was a failure, and that countless more billions need to be spent to rectify that mistake, even though it was a Labour government who wasted the money in the first place ....

 

[Batman]

That is where you are completely wrong, there is widespread opposition around the country and will be a lot more when the phase 2 alignments are announced. I would hardly call Staffordshire County council a bunch of southern nimbies...

Last time I checked, Staffordshire County Council were in favour of HS2, although this could change once it's formally announced that the line to the North West will run through their area, which it will.

 

[The Ham]

If this turns out to be true (which I have my doubts about, at least in the short term) it shows that the train operators are already looking at ways of getting extra seats on their trains:
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2012/07/13-union-claims-880-jobs-at.html

Anyway the point of raising it here is I would have thought that if there is plenty of capacity on the WCML then there would no need to worry about providing an extra 20 seats per train at the expense of the shop, especially given that most of the trains will be 11 coaches soon. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[WatcherZero]

I would imagine most of the changes the bidders have been discussing arent as drastic and are more likely minor seating alterations (increasing/decreasing first class) as well as how they would implement relivery to internal furnishings.

 

[Stats]

Last time I checked, Staffordshire County Council were in favour of HS2, although this could change once it's formally announced that the line to the North West will run through their area, which it will.

It is reported that Staffordshire CC are opposed to the rail link and are "alarmed" that there will be a junction connecting the phase 2 line to Manchester with the Phase 1 line.

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2012/07/05/hs2-rail-junction-plans-are-attacked/

Fresh plans for a major junction of the HS2 rail line near Lichfield are revealed today, sparking criticism from Staffordshire County Council chiefs.

Proposals for a major intersection between Lichfield and Fradley have been discussed with bosses at the county council, who oppose the £32 billion link.

 

[Snapper]

Incidentally, if any Hs2 supporters are on Twitter and want to help counteract the misinformation spread about Hs2. Visit the hashtag #hs2

 

[brianthegiant]

^^ Good idea, also keep an eye on the relevant Wikipedia pages for bias.

 

[6Gman]

Incidentally, if any Hs2 supporters are on Twitter and want to help counteract the misinformation spread about Hs2. Visit the hashtag #hs2

And equally important to counteract pro-HS2 misinformation I hope!

 

[tbtc]

You know those enthusiasts who've said that they are against HS2 because they are worried that it'll mean no money being spent on improving "classic" lines?

I wonder whether today's announcements will make them appreciate that HS2 is "on top of" spending on classic lines, and there seems to be a plan for infrastructure improvements regardless of HS2 (so the "HS2 is bad because it'll mean nothing will be invested on classic lines" argument seems a little weaker...).

Just a thought.

 

[WatcherZero]

You know those enthusiasts who've said that they are against HS2 because they are worried that it'll mean no money being spent on improving "classic" lines?

I wonder whether today's announcements will make them appreciate that HS2 is "on top of" spending on classic lines, and there seems to be a plan for infrastructure improvements regardless of HS2 (so the "HS2 is bad because it'll mean nothing will be invested on classic lines" argument seems a little weaker...).

Just a thought.

Based on their TV appearances today their message has done a 180 from 'HS2 will starve other lines of investment!' to 'now we have investment in other lines why do we need HS2? Surely this will be enough?'.

 

[The Ham]

Based on their TV appearances today their message has done a 180 from 'HS2 will starve other lines of investment!' to 'now we have investment in other lines why do we need HS2? Surely this will be enough?'.

The electrification of the East West rail link will actually make it a little cheaper to build HS2, as it was always planned to be used during the construction of HS2.

Also by providing a much better "classic" rail network makes it more likely that people will want to travel by train, so expect passenger growth of well above the 2% used as a basis for HS2.

This is may mean that HS2 can be delayed by a few years because of the schemes announced, but if the passenger numbers on the network are higher\earlier than the predictions used then the case for building it gets stronger not weaker.

its amusing that the anti HS2 groupings were saying that by building HS2 it would stave "classic" rail investment and that would be bad for the railways, but now the government appears to be doing both they are saying that we don't need both.

 

[hwl]

The electrification of the East West rail link will actually make it a little cheaper to build HS2, as it was always planned to be used during the construction of HS2.

Also by providing a much better "classic" rail network makes it more likely that people will want to travel by train, so expect passenger growth of well above the 2% used as a basis for HS2.

This is may mean that HS2 can be delayed by a few years because of the schemes announced, but if the passenger numbers on the network are higher\earlier than the predictions used then the case for building it gets stronger not weaker.

its amusing that the anti HS2 groupings were saying that by building HS2 it would stave "classic" rail investment and that would be bad for the railways, but now the government appears to be doing both they are saying that we don't need both.

East West Rail is also giving something to the local communities in the Chilterns so that some councils/MPs have less ammunition to oppose HS2. Throw in electrifying the rest of Chiltern network and the opposition would probably go down noticeably. EWR, Oxford Nuneaton electrification and W12 works would also remove some freight traffic from the southern WCML allowing better commuter services south of MK.

 

[tbtc]

Based on their TV appearances today their message has done a 180 from 'HS2 will starve other lines of investment!' to 'now we have investment in other lines why do we need HS2? Surely this will be enough?'.

Couldn't make it up!

East West Rail is also giving something to the local communities in the Chilterns so that some councils/MPs have less ammunition to oppose HS2. Throw in electrifying the rest of Chiltern network and the opposition would probably go down noticeably. EWR, Oxford Nuneaton electrification and W12 works would also remove some freight traffic from the southern WCML allowing better commuter services south of MK.

Good points - I hadn't thought of an electrified EWR as a "sop" to the Chiltern NIMBYs, but when you put it like that, it's a clever trick

 

[brianthegiant]

the Wendover antis will be too busy going to Oxford & Milton Keynes on shopping trips to notice when the HS2 construction starts

 

[WatcherZero]

Report in the Independent on the Mayors office work developing Crossrail 2 and trying to improve the linkage between HS1, HS2 and Crossrail 2. Again recognising that that Euston cant handle Crossrail 2 passengers most of the early design work has been thrown out, they have also ruled out a travelator between Euston and St Pancras. Their now working on the concept of Crossrail 2 sharing the HS2 corridor north of Euston and altering the height that HS2 enters Euston.

 

[Rational Plan]

Report in the Independent on the Mayors office work developing Crossrail 2 and trying to improve the linkage between HS1, HS2 and Crossrail 2. Again recognising that that Euston cant handle Crossrail 2 passengers most of the early design work has been thrown out, they have also ruled out a travelator between Euston and Paddington. Their now working on the concept of Crossrail 2 sharing the HS2 corridor north of Euston and altering the height that HS2 enters Euston.

I hope that was just a mis print or some engineer has wallowing in some consultancy fees.

 

[Nym]

Sorry, what route was Crossrail 2 supposed to take?

I thought that the Euston Slows would have been folded into Crossrail 1 with some new viaducting around Old Oak Common and platforms at Willesden Junction to widen out the Old Oak Common station complex to include Willsden Junction, of course with additional mainline platforms.

 

[WatcherZero]

I hope that was just a mis print or some engineer has wallowing in some consultancy fees.

Sorry meant St Pancras.

 

[Nym]

Just done some more reading, seems that the latest encarnation of Crossrail 2 is the Chelsey to Hackney line, or in it's latest TfL form, Clapham Junction with several SWT services feeding into it, out to take over services on the Lee Valley...


Wimbledon
Tooting Broadway
Clapham Junction
Chelsea
Victoria
Tottenham Court Road
Euston/St Pancras double-ended station serving both mainline stations and Euston tube station
Angel splits into two branches
Dalston Junction // *Hackney Downs / Hackney Central double-ended station
Seven Sisters // *Tottenham Hale
Wood Green // *Cheshunt
Alexandra Palace Terminates // Continuing to Hertford East (takeover or share the Great Eastern branch)

 

[Metrailway]

There is a thread on District Dave about Crossrail 2 and its potential options:

http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=crossrail&action=display&thread=19975&page=1

 

[Nym]

That makes much more sense than textual data, ta.

Wonder what the frequencies would be on these lines and if there would be any additional potential routes on the Northern end of the line...?

 

[WatcherZero]

The detailed design phase for HS2 phase 2 has been put out to tender, suggests the Transport Secretary is sitting on making the route public while the prefered route has already been chosen.

http://www.hs2.org.uk/assets/x/94414

 

[Chris125]

How does it suggest she's sitting on something? Its a framework for "engineering and environmental services" which will only be finalised "once transport secretary Justine Greening published her preferred route options in the autumn", as an article in construction news put it.

Chris

 

[WatcherZero]

Because while they cant confirm the award until she announces it they have to be able to tell the bidders the scope of works just like they did for HS2 phase 1. You cant bid for a contract you dont know the scale and work involved in.

 

[D365]

I thought that the Euston Slows would have been folded into Crossrail 1 with some new viaducting around Old Oak Common and platforms at Willesden Junction to widen out the Old Oak Common station complex to include Willsden Junction, of course with additional mainline platforms.

Do you mean the Watford DCs? I heard that these would either revert to Bakerloo only, or be coverted to OHLE and tunnelled under Euston to who-knows-where for Crossrail 3 (possibly Waterloo).

Oh right, it's the semi-fasts to Milton Keynes. Would be a great way to soak up some of Crossrail's wasted capacity and release space for HS2. An "Oakden" interchange? Exciting!