• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Harbon 1

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2011
Messages
1,020
Location
Burton on Trent
Good, whats the point of spending £9b on upgrading the WCML and thinking "hmmmm, it's not as good as we first thought it would be...I know, lets build a whole new railway and forget it ever happened!" yes the west was expensive, but far less than HS2 would ever be. And lets face it, if it was built, it would be late, over budget, cut back and probably wouldn't work on the first day and the fares would be extortionate :roll:
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,518
Location
Southampton
From what I understand, the factors which affect line capacity are:
  • Signalling
  • Linespeed
  • Stopping patterns
  • Train length
The reason HS2 creates more capacity is because it has improvements in all of these catagories.

The WCML was supposed to get a variant of ETRMS installed, but this never happened. Even so, the linespeed is still limited to 140mph, so there wouldn't be the same capacity increase as there would be in opening a set of dedicated 186mph tracks for the fastest journeys.

The current WCML also suffers from a mixture of different train speeds and stopping patterns, so a new set of tracks, HS2 or otherwise, would help to alleviate this problem as well. Freight could possibly be sent via the Chiltern, but again more tracks would be needed to prevent freight from getting in the way of the passenger service.
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,270
Further to my previous comments in post #31, I also failed to be convinced by the "dramatic" decreases in journey time.

HS2 won't reach Birmingham for the foreseeable future, let alone Manchester and Leeds. With HS2 running to Birmingham and "classic compatible" trains running further afield, the claimed journey times to London are 49 minutes from Birmingham, 1h 40m from Manchester and 1h 50m from Liverpool. Compare this to the current fastest WCML journey times of 1h 12m from Birmingham, 1h 58m from Manchester and 2h 01m from Liverpool. The time savings are almost insignificant.

Now I know people will jump in and say "Ah, but those fast WCML journey time are for non-stop trains!" Well, yes, but so will be HS2. If HS2 did not proceed it might be possible for the then-WCML-franchise-holder to run 1 or 2 "fast" weekday trains from Wolverhampton, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow in each direction, along with slower services departing just after, calling at all of the Trent Valley stations plus Rugby, Milton Keynes (connecting into the planned East-West route) and Watford. That would please a lot of people.

Another related topic is IEP. At present 9-car 225's are running between Leeds and London. The DfT want to change this to 5-car trains. (This sounds remarkably like XC, don't you think, which is suffering from severe capacity problems at the moment?). And then the DfT claim that we "need" HS2 because we are "running out of capacity" on routes such as Leeds to London. Sometimes I really struggle to understand their decision making process. :roll:
 

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
Another related topic is IEP. At present 9-car 225's are running between Leeds and London. The DfT want to change this to 5-car trains. (This sounds remarkably like XC, don't you think, which is suffering from severe capacity problems at the moment?). And then the DfT claim that we "need" HS2 because we are "running out of capacity" on routes such as Leeds to London. Sometimes I really struggle to understand their decision making process. :roll:

Exactly why i'm afraid I'm never convinced by the arguments that railways ought to be run by the State...
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,284
Those 5 carriage IEPs will be running in double formations as 250m trains though.

As for the capacity arguments, all these improvements you suggest are really a drop in the bucket when you consider that 18 captive trains per hour ine ach direction over the core comes to a mighty 21,600 seats per hour in each direction.
Thats roughly 40 225 sets each and every hour.

It really is enormously more than you can fit onto the main lines today.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
Further to my previous comments in post #31, I also failed to be convinced by the "dramatic" decreases in journey time.

HS2 won't reach Birmingham for the foreseeable future, let alone Manchester and Leeds. With HS2 running to Birmingham and "classic compatible" trains running further afield, the claimed journey times to London are 49 minutes from Birmingham, 1h 40m from Manchester and 1h 50m from Liverpool. Compare this to the current fastest WCML journey times of 1h 12m from Birmingham, 1h 58m from Manchester and 2h 01m from Liverpool. The time savings are almost insignificant.

Now I know people will jump in and say "Ah, but those fast WCML journey time are for non-stop trains!" Well, yes, but so will be HS2. If HS2 did not proceed it might be possible for the then-WCML-franchise-holder to run 1 or 2 "fast" weekday trains from Wolverhampton, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow in each direction, along with slower services departing just after, calling at all of the Trent Valley stations plus Rugby, Milton Keynes (connecting into the planned East-West route) and Watford. That would please a lot of people.

Frequency of service is also important. How many trains per day from BHM take 1h12m?

Shouldn't this be in the HS2 megathread? ;)
 

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
Those 5 carriage IEPs will be running in double formations as 250m trains though..

And they'll probably be as inefficient in use of space as a pair of Voyagers, if they have to have all the crash protection that means that only half of the end carriages can be used for passengers, and of course they won't have end gangways, will they. Why not just make them 10 car to begin with?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Frequency of service is also important. How many trains per day from BHM take 1h12m?

Shouldn't this be in the HS2 megathread? ;)


Frequency of service can surely be maintained by 12 coach trains every half hour just as much as four or coach ones. Is there really any need for three trains to Manchester every hour in any case, or is it just to keep out anyone else and make sure they maintain their cut of the revenue?
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,284
This country is heavily in debt and we cannot afford to add to it. It is only our low cost of borrowing that is saving the nation from financial maltdown at the moment. HS2 should be postponed until we can afford to build it.

The lowest interest rates in over a hundred years is not when we can afford to build it?

Government debt is only at 1970 levels (as a fraction of GDP) currently, and the last time before that that it was below today's value was about 1915.

To be quite frank, the price of HS2 is a drop in the budget compared to the size of the economy, and the markets know this. £33bn may sound like a lot but even if it was paid for in one year that is only about 4 months of borrowing at the current deficit.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
This country is heavily in debt and we cannot afford to add to it. It is only our low cost of borrowing that is saving the nation from financial maltdown at the moment. HS2 should be postponed until we can afford to build it.

Cutting everything is like not eating in order to lose weight - dangerously unhealthy and will eventually kill.
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
Well, I'm one of the ones who supports HS2 on balance. I think it's been planned badly and should be considered much more as part of the current railway system and that more intermediate stops are needed, but I certainly don't want to see it canned. We should have been planning it twenty years ago (we were in BR days, but it came to nothing) and building it ten years ago, but simply as an extra part of the WCML.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,906
Location
Richmond, London
Cutting everything is like not eating in order to lose weight - dangerously unhealthy and will eventually kill.

Its not about cutting everything; with HS2 there is nothing to cut. Its all to do with reducing our debt levels before we look to add to it. Its only our excellent credit rating (and low borrowing rates) that has prevented us going the way of other nations in Europe.

Think about it; if you had high levels of personal debt at home would you add to it by buying a brand new car? No of course you wouldn't. A period of austerity in this country will do us no harm and will teach us a valuable lesson.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,052
Location
Reston City Centre
People STILL have this idea that if HS2 were to be cancelled, then £32 billion would automagically be available for other projects

There is not a pot of money that can suddenly be spent on other things, it simply doesnt work like that - the idea that the treasury would go 'hey, lets give the DfT another couple of billion per year to spend on rail from 2017 to 2033 instead' is laughable.

Chris

I agree with you both - HS2 funding didn't come from the railway budget and scrapping HS2 won't add to the railway budget.

But smaller-scale projects (e.g. a nice big 172 order - at Derby - to replace those Pacers, boost GW capacity etc etc) would kick-start the economy much more quickly!

The HS2 budget won't be used to buy 172s instead. It may be used on additional airport runways etc though.

Shouldn't this be in the HS2 megathread? ;)

Yes (but I don't have a good record when it comes to suggesting threads be merged etc recently :oops:)

The lowest interest rates in over a hundred years is not when we can afford to build it?

Government debt is only at 1970 levels (as a fraction of GDP) currently, and the last time before that that it was below today's value was about 1915.

To be quite frank, the price of HS2 is a drop in the budget compared to the size of the economy, and the markets know this. £33bn may sound like a lot but even if it was paid for in one year that is only about 4 months of borrowing at the current deficit.

Glad someone else isn't fooled by the current deficit hysteria

Its not about cutting everything; with HS2 there is nothing to cut. Its all to do with reducing our debt levels before we look to add to it. Its only our excellent credit rating (and low borrowing rates) that has prevented us going the way of other nations in Europe.

Think about it; if you had high levels of personal debt at home would you add to it by buying a brand new car? No of course you wouldn't. A period of austerity in this country will do us no harm and will teach us a valuable lesson.

Isn't this the same Government which is trying to borrow money from pension schemes to invest in infrastructure elsewhere in the economy?

Because they realise that spending money today will keep people in jobs and will save money in the long run. If you have high levels of personal debt you'd still consider spending money that would save you money in the long run.

Or maybe we should just take the Crown Jewels down to Cash4Gold? :lol:
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Think about it; if you had high levels of personal debt at home would you add to it by buying a brand new car? No of course you wouldn't. A period of austerity in this country will do us no harm and will teach us a valuable lesson.

That may not be the best analogy. If you would need a new car in order to get to a better job, then it may be sensible to add to the debt in the short term in order to bring in more money and clear the debt more quickly. Also, it would depend on the cost of the new car, and the level of debt already incurred.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,906
Location
Richmond, London
That may not be the best analogy. If you would need a new car in order to get to a better job, then it may be sensible to add to the debt in the short term in order to bring in more money and clear the debt more quickly. Also, it would depend on the cost of the new car, and the level of debt already incurred.

Alternatively you would get your current car serviced or buy something that cost less money i.e. not brand new. Its the "lets buy this, lets buy that" attitude from consumers when they can't afford it that has added to our debt problems.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,052
Location
Reston City Centre
Alternatively you would get your current car serviced or buy something that cost less money i.e. not brand new. Its the "lets buy this, lets buy that" attitude from consumers when they can't afford it that has added to our debt problems.

The problem with your analogy is that we can't go out and buy a second hand High Speed railway...

As I said, the Government seem to realise that investing in infrastructure is one way of getting the economy moving again (hence trying to encourage pension funds to lend money to them).
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Alternatively you would get your current car serviced or buy something that cost less money i.e. not brand new. Its the "lets buy this, lets buy that" attitude from consumers when they can't afford it that has added to our debt problems.

Yes, it all depends on the circumstances, which would have to be assessed on their merits. It may be worth the investment, it may not. I don;t think it's clear cut either way, but I thought you were using the example to suggest that it clearly wouldn't be a good decision.

A bit like HS2, which I am not in favour of, but the reason is not because we are heavily in debt!

And of course, without consumers spending money, and buying things, we have no growth! And so the debate goes on...;)
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
Has anyone considered solving the future WCML capacity issue by raising fares high enough to constrain demand? I'm not too bothered about HS2 as we can always play with high speed trains in mainland Europe. The UK doesn't really do transport. If high speed rail really is critical to economic growth then the UK will lag behind, and there is no shame in that. There is no definite reason why the UK needs to be as prosperous or wealthy as other European countries.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,906
Location
Richmond, London
The problem with your analogy is that we can't go out and buy a second hand High Speed railway...

As I said, the Government seem to realise that investing in infrastructure is one way of getting the economy moving again (hence trying to encourage pension funds to lend money to them).

You're right we can't go and buy a second hand railway but as we have the option to service the car we could also improve what we already have. In other words Pendolinos can extended further as can London Midland services.

Yes, you're also right that infrastructure projects can improve the economy but they need to spent on projects that will make a difference. In no way will HS2 benefit the north; it will simply allow people to travel to the south quicker.
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
This article is rubbish, and is pure speculation.

Just a few days ago the All-Party Parliamentary Group for High-Speed Rail published a report concluding that HS2 is the only solution to long term capacity problems beyond 2020. Yes, adding the odd coach here and there will help, but only to a point. There comes a point you simply cannot push an essentially Victorian network anymore, especially if you want to run more trains in the peak and a mixed traffic railway.

The full report is here

http://www.appghsr.co.uk/upload/APPG for High-Speed Rail Inquiry Report.pdf

As for debt, it's a drop in the ocean, about the same as free bus travel for pensioners per year.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,906
Location
Richmond, London
And of course, without consumers spending money, and buying things, we have no growth! And so the debate goes on...;)

Well, there is one other way and thats through exports! I would rather see money spent on education. From what I can gather you are the same age as me; 46; education standards have certainly slipped since we left school!
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
A four track 140mph railway would probably cost more than the currently proposed 300-320-360kph twin track route.

It would only be an 140mph railway in branding.

I doubt if there is much difference whatsoever in the building of a brand new 140mph railway or a 186mph railway. 4-tracking just saves time and disruption in the future.

The locals aren't protesting about a railway, they're protesting about a *high speed* railway.

A bog-standard, railway using ordinary stock capable of operating no faster than that which has been used on the ECML for 20 years or the WCML for 10 would probably delight them.

After a few years run a few 186mph services and see if anyone really notices the difference trackside.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,821
Its not about cutting everything; with HS2 there is nothing to cut. Its all to do with reducing our debt levels before we look to add to it. Its only our excellent credit rating (and low borrowing rates) that has prevented us going the way of other nations in Europe.

Think about it; if you had high levels of personal debt at home would you add to it by buying a brand new car? No of course you wouldn't. A period of austerity in this country will do us no harm and will teach us a valuable lesson.

Yet those on the Red side of the political divide say that we should be spending in big ifrastructure projects to create jobs and encourage growth - which this certainly wold do as the supply chain would be massive accross the country and thus tax reciepts would then go up from the suppliers and the workers from all divisions..

Id say lets just get on and do it. And build another runway at bloody heathrow whilst were doing it too.

Whatever happened to just getting on with things. Too much talking and debating is ruining this sodding country.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,052
Location
Reston City Centre
The locals aren't protesting about a railway, they're protesting about a *high speed* railway

From what I've seen, they are protesting about a railway that won't benefit them. The M40 cuts through that neck of the woods too, but at least there are junctions for locals to use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Whatever happened to just getting on with things. Too much talking and debating is ruining this sodding country.

I believe its called democracy.

Democracy is great. But we have Governments elected with manifesto commitments, then still needing to go through all the hoops to get things done.
 

Waverley125

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2008
Messages
1,010
Location
Leeds, West Yorkshire
Ok, so here's some economic reality, and some thoughts on HS2

Firstly, cutting HS2 doesn't make any money available anywhere. The £32bn being spent is the same money currently being spent on Crossrail. When crossrail finishes, the annual funding is to switch to HS2. If HS2 is cancelled, that money goes straight back to the treasury. There is no 'cancel HS2 and spend the money on pacer replacement' option. Moreover, within CP5 there is already funding allocated for futher projects, such as pacer replacements. The entire idea, peddled by the NIMBYs that it'd a 'new trains now or HS2 in 15 years' dichotomoy is absolutely false. Cancelling HS2 produces one thing-no HS rail in Britain. No more, no less.

Secondly, the 'we can't afford this' argument is absolute bunkum. Firstly because with the pound being used as a haven currency by the world (along with the Dollar and the Swiss Franc), means our borrowing costs are incredibly low. Also, lenders are incredibly willing to lend money for things that actually produce hard assets at the end of them, such as HS2. Such things are realistic long-term projects which you can collateralise. Lenders do not want to lend to pay for things like welfare payments, because they produce nothing, and can't be collateralised. Loans specifically tied to HS2 will not be hard to come by. The idea of the 'national debt' and comparing it to a household budget may be politically nice, but it's nothing less than economic BS.

As for HS2, I' very much for it. It's all very well saying 'well, there aren't capacity problems off peak', but that's just something that's trivially true, and doesn't speak to the problems HS2 is designed to solve-i.e. the peak capacity problems on the WC, Midland & EC MLs. The simple truth is that there are only so many paths to put trains through, no matter how long or short they are. The associated costs of severe train lengthening makes such projects even less economical as HS2, without producing the journey time savings that HS2 does.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,906
Location
Richmond, London
Democracy is great. But we have Governments elected with manifesto commitments, then still needing to go through all the hoops to get things done.

But thats the great thing about democracy, everyone gets to have their say. The Chinese are building high speed railways like there's no tomorrow but their constitution doesn't allow for anyone to question what they are doing. I know what I would rather have.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Well, there is one other way and thats through exports! I would rather see money spent on education. From what I can gather you are the same age as me; 46; education standards have certainly slipped since we left school!

I definitely agree with that final point! Not that it will be a popular opinion with younger people!

Back on topic, I would also like to see money spent on improving what we already have rather than HS2, but I've been told over and over again that if HS2 does not go ahead, it will not mean any more money for the rest of the network.

I also don't think there's much mileage in the story that led to this thread. It would be a much bigger u-turn than the pasty tax!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top