High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[RichmondCommu]

Good, the nation can't afford it. It would be far better to upgrade the WCML and ECML to 140mph and extend electrification to Plymouth and Sheffield.

Thank god someone has seen sense!

 

[Michael.Y]

Agreed shame if its true however we will need something to replace it perhaps a new railine with a top speed of 125-140mph or something

The infrastructure is there, we just need to upgrade it to allow the trains that already exist (390s and 91s) to reach their full potential. Richard Branson went out and bought future-proofed 140mph trains but is not allowed to run them. If thats not discouraging to the private sector then I don't know what is.

 

[NJTom]

Realistically it was never even alive. Even the most optimistic business plans for HS2 would be swamped by the costs of borrowing the money to build it, especially given the direction of Euro lending rates.

 

[6Gman]

The infrastructure is there, we just need to upgrade it to allow the trains that already exist (390s and 91s) to reach their full potential. Richard Branson went out and bought future-proofed 140mph trains but is not allowed to run them. If thats not discouraging to the private sector then I don't know what is.

Richard Branson did not buy anything.

He is not allowed to run them for very good safety reasons!

 

[Monty]

A shame, not only do we miss out on the foundations of a high speed network, we also miss an opportunity to having a domestic line built to the larger continental loading gauge. :/

 

[6Gman]

My problem with HS2 is that it was neither one thing nor another.

I'd be happier with a more ambitious scheme offering Dover - London - Oxford - Birmingham - NW - West Scotland AND Brighton - London - Cambridge - Yorkshire - NE - East Scotland.

Would cost a fortune but would be a credible network.

 

[Ascot]

HS2 isn't dead. Re-read the article and actually quote where it is written "HS2 will not go ahead". There would be much more media attention.

The title of this thread is very misleading.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jonny]

Courtesy of the NIMBY/anti-speed lobby who want the whole country to go at walking/tractor pace because they can't be bothered to catch up.

The main reason I want to see HS2 to succeed is more to spite Andrea Leadsom - one of the NIMBY MPs who is bothered about it - than anything else after she had the cheek to propose a "death by dangerous cycling" offence/bill that went out the window with the Queen's speech ( IMO )

Equally though, on a different note, I would prefer an ECML-parallell route from London to Tyneside and on to Scotland; the classic line could then take on more stops and even be all stops north of York (with works as needs be) on trains to Newcastle (to encourage pax onto the new services instead).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would the route of HS2 have anything to do with matters seen to be detrimental to the political well-being of certain MP's constituencies and of the members concerned ?

Perhaps the amount of thread space on this forum that has been taken up on this matter and the concurrent matter of Manchester Mayfield station can now be devoted to other topics.

But as you all know...I am just an old cynic..:roll:

 

[williamn]

Upgrading to 140mph running would shave a tiny amount off journey times and wouldn't solve capacity issues. It's not the answer.

 

[Temple Meads]

HS2 should not go ahead, it's a waste of money that could be spent on many other projects to benefit the railways we already have.

 

[NSE]

Good. We have plenty of problems that need solving without creating a new line, which will be over budget and will produce more problems because it will be built shortsightedly without any view for expansion. Inject the money to further electrification, replacement of pacers, refurbishment of tracks, sorting out problem junctions and single track etc etc

 

[SS4]

Needless to say it's the previous government's fault, just like rain in June is the previous government's fault :roll: . They've been in office two years - blaming the previous lot will not cut it

I wonder what novel and interesting way the Tories will come up to **** the country this month?

 

[NSEFAN]

Funny how all the objections suddenly come out of the woodwork.

People STILL have this idea that if HS2 were to be cancelled, then £32 billion would automagically be available for other projects. The government doesn't just sit on a pot of money and write cheques all day. Funnily enough, it's the same scaremongering argument which was used against the alternative voting system.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Very very sad, if it's true.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/politics/2012/june/tory-minister-hs2-is-effectively-dead

This rag is a right-wing Tory magazine owned by the Telegraph people (Barclay brothers).
They want money spent on their pet projects (eg Heathrow expansion) rather than slicing up the Chilterns to suit those horrid northerners.

I'd at least put a question mark in the thread title.
DfT do need to keep up the momentum though, or the anti-lobby will win by default.
The worsening financial crisis could actually help HS2, as Osborne & Co look for a "Plan B" to kick-start the economy.

 

[Chris125]

HS2 should not go ahead, it's a waste of money that could be spent on many other projects to benefit the railways we already have.

There is not a pot of money that can suddenly be spent on other things, it simply doesnt work like that - the idea that the treasury would go 'hey, lets give the DfT another couple of billion per year to spend on rail from 2017 to 2033 instead' is laughable.

Chris

 

[route:oxford]

This is probably just wishful thinking on the part of one (un-named) minister...

Even if it is not built as "HS2", I strongly believe that this route should be re-built and open as a "standard" 4-track 140mph railway.

With the signalling system the WCML should have had and all non-MK Pendolino services routed this way - it would release a significant amount of capacity on the WCML and at Birmingham New Street.

 

[Schnellzug]

I do like the way that any Conservative-supporting publication is automatically dismissed as a right-wing rag, notwithstanding whatever calibre of journalists it may have writing for it, if it reports something or states an opinion contrary to what one thinks ought to be done.

 

[6Gman]

The worsening financial crisis could actually help HS2, as Osborne & Co look for a "Plan B" to kick-start the economy.

But smaller-scale projects (e.g. a nice big 172 order - at Derby - to replace those Pacers, boost GW capacity etc etc) would kick-start the economy much more quickly!

 

[Masbroughlad]

HS2 must go ahead - for the good of the country - now and tomorrow.

 

[6Gman]

Even if it is not built as "HS2", I strongly believe that this route should be re-built and open as a "standard" 4-track 140mph railway.

With the signalling system the WCML should have had and all non-MK Pendolino services routed this way - it would release a significant amount of capacity on the WCML and at Birmingham New Street.

What a very good idea.

 

[HSTEd]

A four track 140mph railway would probably cost more than the currently proposed 300-320-360kph twin track route.

 

[Donny Dave]

If plans for HS2 are being scrapped, then good....

Oh, I'm not jumping on the bandwagon against HS2, as I have been opposed to it right from the start. Here's some quotes from posts I made over 2 years ago when the route was being discussed ....

I'm against high speed rail in the UK, as apart from the Channel Tunnel link, we don't need it.

In response to the part of the quote I've highlighted, the big difference between, the likes of France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Japan, is that they have the space to build a network of high speed lines. The UK doesn't.

I would much rather see the countless billions needed to build the HS line (and stock) used to upgrade the current network, instead of building a huge white elephant. This would provide work for people and companies, same as building the HS line, but with more overall benefit to the country as a whole.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=415639&postcount=12

Japan is a different matter to the UK as they did have the space to build high speed lines. This in turn led to the regeneration of towns along the route as they had a fast connection to the major cities. This effectively means they built around the Shinkansen .....

Another factor about the Japanese network, is that it is over 1600km (1000 miles) from end to end (Hachinohe - Tokyo - Osaka - Hakata). The only route that is likely to be cost effective in the UK is London to Scotland. Assuming the principle stations along the route will be Birmingham, Manchester, Preston and Carlisle (or Leeds and Newcastle if going to Edinburgh), that means you literally have to bulldoze your way through the heart of 4 or 5 cities (plus London and which ever Scottish city the line terminates at) which is going to be extremely expensive. The alternative is to build sections of high speed line, then have them run on classic lines through the cities which will defeat the object of time savings anyway !

As I said in my original post in this thread (and others have said), We don't need the high speed route. What we do need however is a lot of capacity increases on current routes, and any other diversionare toutes that need building and/or upgrading.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=387325&postcount=47

Entire thread - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31127

 

[Oswyntail]

Needless to say it's the previous government's fault, just like rain in June is the previous government's fault :roll: . They've been in office two years - blaming the previous lot will not cut it

I wonder what novel and interesting way the Tories will come up to **** the country this month?

Again, what's with the cynicism? (And you must remember the Labour attempts at the last election to say they were still sorting out the other lot's mess - still a long way to go to beat that).
I do believe the country needs a new "spine" line, but whether it should be high-speed, or London-Brum is dubious. I do not believe the railways can continue to plan on the basis of growing passenger use, but there is massive potential for modal shift on freight, and that is where I believe the infrastructural projects to revitalise the economy should be.

 

[All Line Rover]

I am bemused by the lack of similar articles from other authoritative sources, which suggests that the title of this article is less definitive than it first seems.

It is true, however, that HS2 is nowhere near to being "confirmed." I for one am in two minds over the project.

On the one hand, if HS2 goes ahead, the extra capacity and slightly faster services would of course be much appreciated, although I have concerns over WCML services being slowed to a crawl and the HS2 fares being sky high.

On the other hand, I fail to be convinced by the pro-HS2 claims that the WCML south of Rugby is "full." How can a line be "full" if 5-car Voyagers and 4-car Desiros are running up and down the line, day in, day out? How can a line be "full" when a certain class of train that can run in 12-car formation is currently running in 9 and 11-car formation? And how can a line be "full" when many Off-Peak and shoulder-peak intercity services are nowhere near full capacity? If...

• All Pendolino's were lengthened to 12-car, with one First Class coach converted to Standard Class
• All Voyagers were doubled-up to create 10-car formations
• Desiros ran as a minimum of 8-car formation
• A greater emphasis was placed on Off-Peak travel
• And peak restrictions were adjusted to encourage shoulder-peak travel

...capacity would be increased dramatically, and with a much, much lower cost than HS2.

 

[Schnellzug]

I am bemused by the lack of similar articles from other authoritative sources, which suggests that the title of this article is less definitive than it first seems.

It is true, however, that HS2 is nowhere near to being "confirmed." I for one am in two minds over the project.

On the one hand, if HS2 goes ahead, the extra capacity and slightly faster services would of course be much appreciated, although I have concerns over WCML services being slowed to a crawl and the HS2 fares being sky high.

On the other hand, I fail to be convinced by the pro-HS2 claims that the WCML south of Rugby is "full." How can a line be "full" if 5-car Voyagers and 4-car Desiros are running up and down the line, day in, day out? How can a line be "full" when a certain class of train that can run in 12-car formation is currently running in 9 and 11-car formation? And how can a line be "full" when many Off-Peak and shoulder-peak intercity services are nowhere near full capacity? If...

• All Pendolino's were lengthened to 12-car, with one First Class coach converted to Standard Class
• All Voyagers were doubled-up to create 10-car formations
• Desiros ran as a minimum of 8-car formation
• A greater emphasis was placed on Off-Peak travel
• And peak restrictions were adjusted to encourage shoulder-peak travel

...capacity would be increased dramatically, and with a much, much lower cost than HS2.

I do tend to agree with thaat. That's why the Shinkansen are so efficient; it's not just the speed, it's that every train is 16 coaches or so, that's why they so efficient at shifting crowds. See also TGV Duplex. The WCML could indeed offer many times the capacity it does now while running the same number of trains.

 

[Badger]

On top of those suggestions the Chiltern line could be upgraded to carry much larger units than it does currently.

 

[SS4]

On top of those suggestions the Chiltern line could be upgraded to carry much larger units than it does currently.

Wouldn't upgrading the Chilterns also run into the NIMBY patrol?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm in two minds about HS2. On the one hand, a HSR from Euston to Manchester and Scotland sounds like a good idea (esspecially if it could go via Birmingham, but I appreciate that would be difficult). However, a HSR service from Euston to Birmingham would be rediculous. Now a 4-track, continental loading guage, HS2 with 2 200mph tracks for Euston - Manchester - Glasgow services and 2 125mph tracks for Euston - Birmingham trains and perhaps some freight would probably be a good idea.

If HS2 is to be shelved/delayed, make your mind up DfT and put the money planned to be spent on prelimenaries for HS2 in the current parlement into extending GW electrification to finally kill the IEP bi-mode. Tell Hitachi to build an INTERCITY EMU fleet instead, or allow other firms to bid.

 

[Badger]

Wouldn't upgrading the Chilterns also run into the NIMBY patrol?

Well, when I say "upgrade" I mean the trains, and platforms, not sure what else would be involved but not as much as HS2 would cause.

Not saying it's an adequate replacement of course, but still something that could be added to other things to build some kind of replacement.

I don't know much about it but 12 car trains along it would vastly increase capacity from those that run at the moment.