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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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HSTEd

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as in understand it the chinese high speed train was not on a high speed section of line and was not therefore travelling at 360kph in any case. lightning struck signalling so this accident could have happened on an ordinary speed line as it in fact did.

400 kph is the max design speed of hs2 with i believe 360 kph the normal max line speed which is not much above the speeds achieved by trains now albeit not in service now. if aircraft designers had followed this rational we would be flying in turboprops not jets as these would not have been developed
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...mental-430-kmh-high-speed-train-unveiled.html
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Wildcard how do you explain the current large investment programme which includes two huge projects thamesloink and crossrail, which is costing the same amount per year as will hs2 phase1 ? Why do you believe that investment will dry up with HS2 ? Some of your projects are being implemented and east west looks to go ahead in the next spending period as does midland electrification

... I've read some of the reams of academic material produced for the FASTECH 360 project, the consensus among the people behind that project is that 360kph running is a waste because the seconds in additional travel time savings gained over 320kph running are purchased with 26% greater power requirements and drastically increased equipment wear.
 
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Nym

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But when this new type of boogie (hypothetical) gets designed in 5 or 10 years with lessons learned from current 360km/h running, then this can be incorporated into a new design that can have 400km/h running without the issues of track wear as stated, and the power usage can provide a marginal but significant time saving (the UK populous is fickle, get things below an hour and they're happy!) and we have a railway only designed for 320 because we only thought of technology as it is now, then we'd look pretty thick for not future-proofing our brand new flagship line.
 

brianthegiant

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The long drawn out delivery of this scheme is one of the reasons I am against HS2 . We need a number of smaller , quickly implementable, geographically diverse rail investments which can promote growth now or at least sooner , not in decades time. A package of measures such as
• Extend MML electrification
• Chiltern line electrification
• Great Western electrification
• Bicester – Bletchley
• Bedford- Northampton
• Hertford North to East
• Either Northampton – Market Harborough or Rugby – Wigston
• Luton – Stevenage or something similar
• Freight on WCML throughout the night
would enable maximum use of the main lines out of the Thames Corridor.

Plus for good measure
• Discontinue First class accommodation on London Midland
• Nationwide Oyster style smart ticketing ( revenue lost through fare evasion dramatically reduces )

many of these will have any of these are already planned to be done in the medium term, and will be operational long before HS2.

I think electrification and a new HS network fulfill different objectives so it's not an either or decision. Electrification makes improvements in journey times, energy consumption and track wear. but doesn't make anything like the capacity increase that you get with a new line potentially runnning up to 18tph 18 car trains.

So there is no argument of WCML or MML leccy VS HS2, because the plan is to do both anyway.
 

Padav

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@brianthegiant - Exactly!

This devious tactic forms a central plank in the mendacious arguments propagated by the anti-HS2 brigade.

The goal is obvious - bamboozle the public by repeating a list of seemingly reasonable investments in the classic line that are NOT happening because all the money is being spent on HS2!

This provides a double whammy result for the naysayers, imply (by use of sneeky language) that huge sums are already allocated to HS2 (THEY AREN'T) whilst worthwhile projects are being shelved (THEY AREN'T EITHER!)

Records sums ARE being invested in the classic line right now
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2011/09/29-network-rail-unveils-its-grand.html
In fact if we take this argument to its logical conclusion - what is needed is cancellation of a current project underway right now and consuming large amounts of capital budget - I can only think of one item that fits the bill - CROSSRAIL

So if the anti-HS2 brigade really do want a massive new injection of funding into the classic line network they know where to look for the money - somehow I don't think Boris would be too chuffed with the idea?
 

jon0844

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I heard that the Government is thinking about allowing savers to invest in big projects, securing a bigger return than a bank - but over a longer period of time.

I don't have loads of savings, but having recently had a child, I am now beginning to think that it's time to be putting some money away. I'd be quite interested in investing in a big capital project, for a minimum return and the chance of maybe making a bit more.

I think it's fair to say that any rail investment will pay off. Fuel costs are rising, so rail travel might one day be the only option to some (or only viable option for long journeys) and it's also pretty green. I can't see that you wouldn't be able to profit.

What do other people think about the idea? Could it enable the Government to go ahead with more schemes, and quicker? Would the public go for it, or be cynical and refuse to let the Government on their hard earned?
 

dggar

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I heard that the Government is thinking about allowing savers to invest in big projects, securing a bigger return than a bank - but over a longer period of time.

I don't have loads of savings, but having recently had a child, I am now beginning to think that it's time to be putting some money away. I'd be quite interested in investing in a big capital project, for a minimum return and the chance of maybe making a bit more.

I think it's fair to say that any rail investment will pay off. Fuel costs are rising, so rail travel might one day be the only option to some (or only viable option for long journeys) and it's also pretty green. I can't see that you wouldn't be able to profit.

What do other people think about the idea? Could it enable the Government to go ahead with more schemes, and quicker? Would the public go for it, or be cynical and refuse to let the Government on their hard earned?

Intersting comments about this can be found here:--

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4000673
 

jon0844

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Intersting comments about this can be found here:--

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4000673

Thanks. I hope not all the comments on there are going to be too political though. It's either a good idea, or it isn't. Simply being for or against because of your political views isn't very productive!

(Edit: Does seem to have a lot of chat about using the money for toll roads, rather than bigger projects, and then going off on whether we should pay taxes at all!)
 

Chris125

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Architect’s vision of four-mile cycle track on top of rail tunnels would follow route of HS2 project

"We cycle happily next to canals. So why not on top of a rail tunnel? The trail would start at Euston with a bike hub allowing parking and repairs. From there, commuters could take a bike and head to north London. First stop would be Parkway, then Primrose Hill and onwards to Old Oak Common"

"Tunnels will be 30 feet deep and 16 metres below the existing West Coast railway line, which will be decommissioned, the meeting heard."

...oh dear.

Chris
 

Greenback

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Thanks. I hope not all the comments on there are going to be too political though. It's either a good idea, or it isn't. Simply being for or against because of your political views isn't very productive!

(Edit: Does seem to have a lot of chat about using the money for toll roads, rather than bigger projects, and then going off on whether we should pay taxes at all!)

I'm all for it. Those who support HS2 will, I'm sure, be queuing up to invest! :lol:

Seriously though, when private companies are expected to help to fund projects, and naturally expect to earn a good return on it, I don't see why this should not be extended to private individuals. Some will have already invested in such schemes through their pension providers or shareholdings anyway.
 

HowMuch?

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I'll invest so long as the Daily Mail promises to mount a campaign to get money back for "Hard-working ordinary (ie white, able-bodied, heterosexual, middle-class) people who were conned into investing" when the company goes bankrupt. Everyone thinks the private sector is brilliant until their shares become worthless and then want bailing out by the taxpayer.

R*******k anyone?
 

HSTEd

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How would they possibly manage to decomm the WCML and fit in the additional HS2 trains onto only four tracks?
 

LE Greys

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How would they possibly manage to decomm the WCML and fit in the additional HS2 trains onto only four tracks?

It's possible that they were not in possession of all the facts (or sufficient sandwiches to make a picnic). ;)
 

nerd

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I am very pro-HS2, just to make that clear.

The Torygraph have one of their whinges :


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...2-were-exaggerated-secret-report-reveals.html

This is old news - the supposedly suppressed report was in 2009, three years ago. The whole scheme now looks very different.

The key point, as is said repeatedly, but is commonly ignored, is that HS2 is justified by increased capacity, and increased capability of satisfying suppressed demand for long-distance travel. It is not justified because it allows more time for productive work; it is justified because it is productive work. For the most part, business travellers who work on the train are engaged in work that relates to their trip - preparation, communication, dissemination; if they did not have the opportunity to travel, there would not be that specific benefit.

There was a discussion of this issue in the papers released by DfTin January this year. This pointed out that - if HS2 were to be evaluated allowing for productive work while travelling - then the Benefit/Cost ratio for HS2 improves. That is obvious when you think about it. If business travellers on HS2 are engaged in productive work while travelling, then the costs to their employers are the same (cost of ticket plus hourly wages and on-costs); but the beneifits increase. But the same is not true to the same extent for alternative modes of long-distance travel. It is not possible to do productive work safely while driving - for obvious reasons. Productive work while flying is restricted by bans of internet connection. Conventional trains do allow a degree of productive work, but all studies show that this is heavily constrained by over-crowding.
 

Badger

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But if you get them to an office half an hour earlier they'll have a much more fit for purpose place to prepare and communicate. That it can be done on a train doesn't mean it should, I'm sure there are much more preferable places for these things.
 

NSEFAN

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That article is by Andrew Gilligan. He isn't exactly pro-HS2 himself.

It makes you wonder if he has a house in the Chilterns. ;)
 

jon0844

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I am very pro-HS2, just to make that clear.

The Torygraph have one of their whinges

I don't know if it's the opinion of the paper, or just Andrew Gilligan who seems to have written loads of anti-HS2 stories. I presume he, or someone close to him, is affected by the route.
 

Batman

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Does anyone know if it's now been categorically ruled out that there won't be platforms built for local trains at Birmingham Curzon Street?

I think it would be extremely short sighted and a real shame if the station were to be built with only high speed platforms and approach tracks.

The station would only need three 150m platforms for the 6 local/regional trains I anticipate to use the station and it would also mean that the Bordesley Cord is no longer required.

Let me know if you want me to go into more details of what I have in mind.
 

Chris125

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Does anyone know if it's now been categorically ruled out that there won't be platforms built for local trains at Birmingham Curzon Street?

I've seen this discussed many times by people over the years, and the conclusion usually reached is that even if it could be done at a reasonable cost, which is questionable, the cost couldnt be justified.

Regarding Gilligans article, there's a rather critical blog post about it here - Gilligan Is Still A Disgrace

Chris
 
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Batman

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I've seen this discussed many times by people over the years, and the conclusion usually reached is that even if it could be done at a reasonable cost, which is questionable, the cost couldnt be justified.

Chris

By platforms for local trains, I don't mean an entirely new station intended for use by WCML trains, I mean 3 extra platforms at Curzon Street and 2 extra approach tracks for trains from the Derby/Leicester line.
 

Chris125

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By platforms for local trains, I don't mean an entirely new station intended for use by WCML trains, I mean 3 extra platforms at Curzon Street and 2 extra approach tracks for trains from the Derby/Leicester line.

Apologies, i thought you were referring to platforms on the existing lines - that said, i still dont see how the cost could be justified.

Chris
 

Batman

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Apologies, i thought you were referring to platforms on the existing lines - that said, i still dont see how the cost could be justified.

Chris

Ok, here's what I had in mind.

There would be 6tph from the 3 local platforms, a combination of existing services diverted from New Street and new services.

These would be:

1tph XC to Nottingham, calling: Kingsbury, Tamworth, Burton, Willington, Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.

1tph XC to Stanstead Airport (calling patten as at present).

1tph XC to Leicester (calling patten as at present, except only calls at Water Orton in peaks and hourly call at South Wigston).

1tph XC to Tamworth, calling: Kingsbury, Wilncote, Tamworth).

2tph LM to Wolverhampton, calling Walmley, Sutton Town, Streetly, Aldridge, Walsall, Pleck, Darlaston James Bridge, Willenhall, Wolverhampton.

My thinking when formulating this idea was to see how local platforms at Curzon Street could be utilised whilst still maintaining some cross-city connectivity on the Cardiff/Worcester-Tamworth/Nuneaton axis as suggested in the West Midlands RUS. The hourly Cardiff - Nottingham service would continue to run through New Street, and so would a new hourly Worcester - Coventry service.

This would provide 2tph from Worcester to New Street and would give Coleshill and Nuneaton 3tph to Birmingham (as well as an hourly service at Water Orton and a direct hourly service to university) as well as a direct Birmingham service for Bedworth and the new stations on the Coventry - Nuneaton line.

I've added an extra 1tph to Tamworth as the RUS suggests, but this terminates at Curzon Street instead of going cross city. My thinking for this is that Tamworth already has an hourly service to Univeirsty, so if the other cross city service per hour went to Coleshill and Nuneaton, it would give those stations an hourly university service too.

I've mentioned the new station at Kingsbury, but not at Fort Parkway, as having looked at the detailed maps for HS2 in the area, a don't think enough land will be available for the construction of a station.

My reasoning for the Sutton Park line passenger service is based on very rough journey time calculations. Under the proposed Birmingham - Walsall - Aldridge service, a Birmingham - Aldridge journey would take 36 minutes, but a DMU service going via Sutton could get from Aldridge to central Birmingham in just 29 minutes (36 minutes from Walsall). This is based on the rough assumption of a 14 minute journey time from Curzon Street to Walmley, 5 minutes Walmley to Sutton Town, 5 minutes Sutton Town to Streetly, 5 minutes Streetly to Aldridge and 7 minutes Aldridge to Walsall.

I believe this would be more cost effective than building a terminus station at Aldridge and electrification for a Birmingham service via Walsall and would provide a rail service for other parts of north Birmingham as well as a usefull Sutton - Walsall service.

Now the paths that have been freed at New Street would allow for a 3tph service to operate on the Camp Hill Line to King's Norton, meaning that the Bordesley Cord would not be needed. I've calculated them to depart New Street at xx18, xx39 & xx57 once minor re timings to other services have been taken into account. That does of course depend upon freight traffic being removed from the Camp Hill line onto the re-opened South Staffordshire line (Stourbridge - Walsall) and assuming that the Sutton Park line will be able to handle additional freight traffic and a 2tph passenger service. It will probably require re signaling of the line from Saltley to Water Orton and the re-doubling of the cords at the eastern end of the Sutton Park Line.

I believe the Sutton Park service should extend onto Wolverhampton with local stations at Pleck, Darlaston James Bridge and Willenhall as a cheaper alternative to extending the Midland Metro to Walsall.

And the central Birmingham HS2 station needs to be called Birmingham Eastside, not Birmingham Curzon Street, to refer to the more general part of the city in which it will be located.
 

HSTEd

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I've seen this discussed many times by people over the years, and the conclusion usually reached is that even if it could be done at a reasonable cost, which is questionable, the cost couldnt be justified.

Regarding Gilligans article, there's a rather critical blog post about it here - Gilligan Is Still A Disgrace

Chris

That blog goes on about freight paths again.....
Where are these magical freight paths going to come from?

Unless all conventional WCML trains to Manchester and Birmingham are being withdrawn (which I believe everyone keeps saying won't happen because the intermediate destinations would go crazy if they were) there will be hardly any paths saved.

What is far more likely to happen is the withdrawal of the 11 coach pendolinos to be replaced with 6 coach "mini" ones, with the 11s moving to other routes that will hopefully be fully electric by then (like XC).

But anyway, the freight paths argument is massively overstated and I wish people would stop going on about it when there are far better arguments for HS2.
 

Chris125

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No one is suggesting removing Manc/Brum services on the existing WCML, but every sensible suggestion i've seen would see existing fast services become semi-fast and relieving the slow lines of traffic from places like MK, potentially allowing for an increase in freight paths - especially with the role out of ERTMS and hopefully increased use of electric loco's on such trains following further electrification.

While all this could see Pendolino's cascaded, i think the most likely replacement on such semi-fast services would be higher capacity, non-tilt rolling stock rather than a 'baby pendo'.

...that said, who knows what will actually end up happening? I think its pretty safe to say though that HS2 will benefit freight much more than many, if not all of the other half-serious alternatives to a new high speed line.

Chris
 

williamn

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Very very sad, if it's true.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/politics/2012/june/tory-minister-hs2-is-effectively-dead

The Spectator said:
Tory minister: HS2 is ‘effectively dead’

Why was David Cameron so lukewarm in his endorsement of HS2 at PMQs today? (In response to a question about the project's future, he offered, 'I believe we should go ahead with HS2', which is rather than different to asserting that it will go ahead.) The project is – as one Tory minister has told The Spectator – ‘effectively dead’. Ross Clark has investigated why in the cover story of tomorrow’s issue. Here’s what he found:

1). George Osborne has turned against it. The chancellor and Tories’ strategic brain was once HS2’s biggest cheerleader, but experience of office has made him realise that Britain’s limited airport capacity is a bigger threat to economic growth. (Was this behind Cameron’s refusal at PMQs to rule out a U-turn over expansion at Heathrow?)

2). The replacement of Philip Hammond by Justine Greening as Transport Secretary. Hammond, like his former boss Osborne, was a believer; but Greening was never convinced, and she listens to her parliamentary colleagues’ reservations sympathetically.

3). Cost and commercial sense. There was no mention of a HS2 bill in the Queen’s Speech because the Cabinet Office was sitting on a report that demolished the commercial logic for the scheme, which fuelled arguments for investment in other parts of Britain’s transport infrastructure. A senior Treasury insider tells us that ‘momentum is draining’ in consequence.

4). Weak public support. The lack of enthusiasm for HS2 among those groups it is supposed to impress has damaged the cause. Businesses, councils and people in the Midlands and the North have always been perplexed by the sense of such colossal spending on such a limited project, while the Scots complain that the line would never reach them. Polls have found that only 30 per cent of northern residents believe that HS2 is a good use of public money.

These factors have conspired against HS2 and we are told that it has been kept on ‘life support’ by David Cameron’s backing. Now, even that seems to be tempered. Yet again, an already costly vanity project looks set for the long grass.
 

anthony263

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Agreed shame if its true however we will need something to replace it perhaps a new railine with a top speed of 125-140mph or something
 

Schnellzug

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oh dear, and everyone was whooping in triumph just a month or two ago.
It might have been useful as a relief line for the WCML, but otherwise it was always a bit of a vanity project, wasn't it, although I bet Nigel Harris will be furious (how many millions of jobs was it going to create)? :roll:
 

northwichcat

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Agreed shame if its true however we will need something to replace it perhaps a new railine with a top speed of 125-140mph or something

What about additional 'fast lines' on both the WCML and ECML which are 140mph capable? The 'fast lines' could be making 6 track sections in some places and in others where a 6 track section would not be appropriate a 2 route section via an alternative route.
 
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