• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
9 Feb 2009
Messages
807
When was the bridge built? i take it must of been after it was three tracked?.Maybe the reason for the three tracking was the M6 bridge.

The route was widened into 3-track somewhere between 1900-1910 I believe. This section was never reduced however between Brinklow and Rugby it was cut from four to three in 1986 before being replaced as part of the Rugby remodelling process. The M6 bridge isn't a problem - the additional track can go through a separate span. The M69 bridge would need rebuilding though.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

TinManDerby

Member
Joined
13 Mar 2010
Messages
7
Location
South Normanton, Derbyshire
THis info may me related to HS2 survey work or may not but thought I should mention it, others may want to comment. I live close to the old Great Central allignment where it goes under the A38 (Main Derby - M1J28 - Mansfield road) at Sutton In Ashfield. We noticed the other day What appears to be a large hole being dug & equipement working in the field next to the old Great Central allignment, a few hundred yards east of the East Midlands Designer Centre (McCarther Glen). Some months ago we also noticed some guys walking along the GCR allignment in Hi-Vis !. I remembered seeing a post re route of HS2 from East Mid Hub to Leeds mentioning the GCR allignment near to the Designer Centre. Could this be survaying for tunnels orther other ? See attached location.
 

Attachments

  • HS2 Route copy.jpg
    HS2 Route copy.jpg
    237.7 KB · Views: 42

bailey65

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2011
Messages
131
Iwould like to see hs2 shelved and the billions saved used to help the economy.
In a recession it is ridiculous to waste billions duplicating existing routes just to shave a bit of time off journeys.
The cost is bound to double or more and £ 32 billion is a lot to squander in a recession,apparently the treasury are having second thoughts.
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,518
Location
Southampton
Iwould like to see hs2 shelved and the billions saved used to help the economy.
In a recession it is ridiculous to waste billions duplicating existing routes just to shave a bit of time off journeys.
The cost is bound to double or more and £ 32 billion is a lot to squander in a recession,apparently the treasury are having second thoughts.

Several problems:

-Stopping HS2 won't automagically mean more money for other things. The government doesn't just sit on a pot of money and write cheques all day.
-The main reason for the line is not speed, but capacity. An upgrade to the WCML would cause many years of delays, as we saw the last time an major upgrade was planned. Building a new line avoids this problem.
-Projects like infrastructure upgrades are actually good for the economy; hoarding money won't fix an economy based on the exchange of wealth.
 

brianthegiant

Member
Joined
12 May 2010
Messages
588
here we go again..... :)

Bailey65, did you not notice that journeys have more than doubled in the last 10 years, are now at record levels, and continuing to rise, that many services are extremely overcrowded, that the WCML is running close to capacity, that trying to upgrade the WCML last time was a disaster.

How is investing in capital infrastructure which will benefit business not helping the economy?
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,609
Iwould like to see hs2 shelved and the billions saved used to help the economy.
In a recession it is ridiculous to waste billions duplicating existing routes just to shave a bit of time off journeys.
The cost is bound to double or more and £ 32 billion is a lot to squander in a recession,apparently the treasury are having second thoughts.

In addition to what has already been said, the overwhelming majority of the spending for HS2 won't actually happen for years yet. That means those billions of pounds you propose saving aren't actually available right now, but even if they are what would you propose spending them on? Ah yes the best action we can take to stimulate the economy is to invest in infrastructure projects...

 

eMeS

Member
Joined
12 Jun 2011
Messages
954
Location
Milton Keynes, UK
This morning, Monday 4 June, I heard Lord Adonis on the radio, saying that he was concerned that HS2 wasn't in the Queen's Speech. He was concerned that other legislation had taken preference.

Perhaps HS2 is being allowed to wither on the vine?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,248
This morning, Monday 4 June, I heard Lord Adonis on the radio, saying that he was concerned that HS2 wasn't in the Queen's Speech. He was concerned that other legislation had taken preference.

Perhaps HS2 is being allowed to wither on the vine?

We already discussed the Queen's speech 'non issue'. The published timetable for the bill to be presented, in late 2013, puts it firmly into the next Queen's speech. IIRC the timetable is pretty much as was expected under Labour anyway.

Basically, Adonis is being misleading, as were a number of news articles that took the line at the time.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,864
Location
UK
Iwould like to see hs2 shelved and the billions saved used to help the economy.
In a recession it is ridiculous to waste billions duplicating existing routes just to shave a bit of time off journeys.
The cost is bound to double or more and £ 32 billion is a lot to squander in a recession,apparently the treasury are having second thoughts.

Oh dear. Not again.

That money is not sitting in a high interest account waiting to spent on HS2 or building a load of new hospitals.

The money invested will pay for a lot of jobs (pay to people who will in turn pay tax on it, and hopefully spend the rest of the money and boost the economy elsewhere - or invest in savings, which might boost pension pots etc).

The project will then do things like take vehicles off roads (thus, as a driver, I'm happy for things like HS2 if it makes the motorways a bit easier to drive on) and boost the economy in a multitude of different ways.

As for the conclusion that it will definitely overspend.. HS1 didn't. When you look at certain projects, like the Jubilee line extension ahead of the opening of the dome, the Olympics, building Wembley Stadium etc - they all had time critical deadlines. The companies can easily be held to ransom for things like this, demanding pay rises and threatening strikes where possible.

I'd hope that HS2 won't be seen to be the same time critical job and so we won't see such opportunism to bump up charges. I hope that HS1 is proof of this, as well as the many other large projects completed on time and on budget. How many large office blocks, shopping centres, bridges, airports and the like are always ending up having cost double?

The 'it will end up costing a gazillion pounds of tax payers money that could be used to build schools and hospitals, and fund more police officers to catch rapists' is a rather typical argument against HS2, but I think it's - frankly - b**locks!!
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,864
Location
UK
Thank you!

HS2: Your money for a high speed line to Birmingham to be used by rich bankers and corporate thieves, or nurses to look after your children. Your choice...

helen-lovejoy.jpg


:)
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
HS2: Your money for a high speed line to Birmingham to be used by rich bankers and corporate thieves, or nurses to look after your children. Your choice...

And staffed by people who may be in the same unions as the nurses, the teachers, the council workers...

Did anyone see the article on page 22-23 of the "Unite Works" magazine?

It did make me giggle. The sub-title is "Not everyone in banking is a bloated fat cat". Unfortunately the article concerns a unite member working in customer service staff who can best be described as rubenesque...
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,784
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Why is the new line being built as a High Speed line?

Would it not cost half the price if it were built as a regular line?

No.

The additional costs for the route as set to make it 186, 200, 220 or 250mph compared with 125 with incoming EU regulations and standardisation of signalling systems are marginal compared to the cost of civils required regardless of linespeed.

Lets not forget that 125mph is classed as a "High Speed Railway".
 

wildcard

Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
120
In addition to what has already been said, the overwhelming majority of the spending for HS2 won't actually happen for years yet. That means those billions of pounds you propose saving aren't actually available right now, but even if they are what would you propose spending them on? Ah yes the best action we can take to stimulate the economy is to invest in infrastructure projects...


The long drawn out delivery of this scheme is one of the reasons I am against HS2 . We need a number of smaller , quickly implementable, geographically diverse rail investments which can promote growth now or at least sooner , not in decades time. A package of measures such as
• Extend MML electrification
• Chiltern line electrification
• Great Western electrification
• Bicester – Bletchley
• Bedford- Northampton
• Hertford North to East
• Either Northampton – Market Harborough or Rugby – Wigston
• Luton – Stevenage or something similar
• Freight on WCML throughout the night
would enable maximum use of the main lines out of the Thames Corridor.

Plus for good measure
• Discontinue First class accommodation on London Midland
• Nationwide Oyster style smart ticketing ( revenue lost through fare evasion dramatically reduces )

There are probably a dozen or more schemes north of Birmingham as well to add to the list. I don’t see why the majority of these ( except the ticketing ) could not be complete within a decade.
My fear is HS2 will suck up all the other investment planned for rail over many years – much along the lines of “you’ve had your turn - now its time for hospitals & schools”. And of course if you’ve north of Birmingham you might not see anything in your lifetime.
 

Holly

Member
Joined
20 May 2011
Messages
783
... incoming EU regulations and standardisation of signalling systems are marginal compared to the cost of civils required regardless of linespeed. ...
Agreed the equipment cost is relatively minor compared with real estate and civils. Real estate and civils depend on choice of route, and to an extent also on loading gauge.

Choice of route depends on linespeed and gradient. A freight speed/gradient line and a high speed/gradient line would choose different routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
... Plus for good measure
* Discontinue First class accommodation on London Midland
As Harry Perkins said "We are all first class you see".

Covert all second class accommodation to first class, not vice-versa.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,784
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Agreed the equipment cost is relatively minor compared with real estate and civils. Real estate and civils depend on choice of route, and to an extent also on loading gauge.

Choice of route depends on linespeed and gradient. A freight speed/gradient line and a high speed/gradient line would choose different routes.

Hence why I qualified it as "For this route".

But really, why is it we're seeing a new wave of stupidity in this thread when they can't just go back a few pages to see why the're wrong and not make the sensible ones on here type it all out again.

Just while I'm on the subject of equipment costs, am I the only one hoping that it won't be signalled using only GSM-R and will have some form of trackside induction comms system?
 

nick.c

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2012
Messages
64
No.

The additional costs for the route as set to make it 186, 200, 220 or 250mph compared with 125 with incoming EU regulations and standardisation of signalling systems are marginal compared to the cost of civils required regardless of linespeed.

Lets not forget that 125mph is classed as a "High Speed Railway".

I think the HS2 business case states that a 250mph railway would cost an extra 10% compared to a standard 125mph line. Not bad considering the former offers far more attractive journey times!

For those concerned about the "huge" cost of HS2 could I suggest that they march up and down Oxford Street waving placards complaining about the huge cost of Crossrail (within a billion or so of the cost of HS2 stage one). After all Crossrail only serves London.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,281
Running at 250mph is stupid, there is a reason nobody does it operationally any more, the Chinese gave up after an accident and the Japanese came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it during that FASTECH 360 project.

320kph is fast enough.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,609
The long drawn out delivery of this scheme is one of the reasons I am against HS2 . We need a number of smaller , quickly implementable, geographically diverse rail investments which can promote growth now or at least sooner , not in decades time. A package of measures such as

As has already been mentioned, the cancellation of HS2 would not automatically make those funds available for other rail projects. Or even transport projects, the budget would go straight back to the Treasury and rail might not get anything to replace it at all.

There is no reason why such a package of projects as you describe won't happen. Looking at the macro economic landscape its pretty clear that we are going to see a change in the governments response to the recession. I'd make a note in your diary for the Spending Review, "Plan A+" may well be very beneficial to transport investment.

 

Manchester77

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2012
Messages
2,628
Location
Manchester
The long drawn out delivery of this scheme is one of the reasons I am against HS2 . We need a number of smaller , quickly implementable, geographically diverse rail investments which can promote growth now or at least sooner , not in decades time. A package of measures such as
• Extend MML electrification
• Chiltern line electrification
• Great Western electrification
• Bicester – Bletchley
• Bedford- Northampton
• Hertford North to East
• Either Northampton – Market Harborough or Rugby – Wigston
• Luton – Stevenage or something similar
• Freight on WCML throughout the night
would enable maximum use of the main lines out of the Thames Corridor.

Plus for good measure
• Discontinue First class accommodation on London Midland
• Nationwide Oyster style smart ticketing ( revenue lost through fare evasion dramatically reduces )

There are probably a dozen or more schemes north of Birmingham as well to add to the list. I don’t see why the majority of these ( except the ticketing ) could not be complete within a decade.
My fear is HS2 will suck up all the other investment planned for rail over many years – much along the lines of “you’ve had your turn - now its time for hospitals & schools”. And of course if you’ve north of Birmingham you might not see anything in your lifetime.

Hi new to this forum. You could add to that list resonating of WCML and ECML with a proven in cab signalling technique.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,075
Location
Redcar
Running at 250mph is stupid

Unless something's changed then there isn't any intention of running at 250mph out of the gate. My understanding was that it was expected that the running speed would initially be 200-220mph with the option to increase that to 250mph should the need arise in the future. By building it to standards for 250mph running they are rather sensibly future proofing it.

You could add to that list resonating of WCML and ECML with a proven in cab signalling technique.

That's already on the drawing boards. Whilst I can't remember the exact dates ERTMS will eventually be deployed on both those routes and will include in-cab signalling.
 

vtiman

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2009
Messages
59
Location
Whirlwind Gdn City and Windermere sometimes. Previ
as in understand it the chinese high speed train was not on a high speed section of line and was not therefore travelling at 360kph in any case. lightning struck signalling so this accident could have happened on an ordinary speed line as it in fact did.

400 kph is the max design speed of hs2 with i believe 360 kph the normal max line speed which is not much above the speeds achieved by trains now albeit not in service now. if aircraft designers had followed this rational we would be flying in turboprops not jets as these would not have been developed
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...mental-430-kmh-high-speed-train-unveiled.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wildcard how do you explain the current large investment programme which includes two huge projects thamesloink and crossrail, which is costing the same amount per year as will hs2 phase1 ? Why do you believe that investment will dry up with HS2 ? Some of your projects are being implemented and east west looks to go ahead in the next spending period as does midland electrification
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top