High Speed Rail beyond HS2

[LE Greys]

Oh well, I tend to do most of my shopping online these days anyway, carn't remember the last time I went to Nottingham City Centre shopping.

Anyway back on topic I do agree that Toton seems the most obvious choice for a high speed rail station, but what are the chances for a connection to the classic lines so that services could serve Nottingham or Derby city centre stations directly for say a High speed rail sevive from Nottingham > Notts/Derby Parkway > Sheffild (parkway?) > Leeds or York > Newcastle?

Well, it's not exactly easy to serve without major re-routing of everything. My money is on East Midlands Parkway (or a version of it at Trent Junction) to link in with the MML's existing services.

 

[PR102]

Hmmm, time to join the real world old chap... There is just too many holes to pick in your obvioulsy biased Logic. For a start you obviously are not clued up enough to realise the HS2 picture is and always has been bigger than just reducing journey times between London and Birmingham so whilst Birmingham will have reduced journey times, so will Manchester and Scotland especially from Day One of opening. The rest of your waffle is just that...

Pfft.

 

[brianthegiant]

Well, it's not exactly easy to serve without major re-routing of everything. My money is on East Midlands Parkway (or a version of it at Trent Junction) to link in with the MML's existing services.

Hmm, isn't East Mids parkway is a bit far south, for a HS line from Bham-Sheffield? you'd need some big curves to get the radius?
A station at Trent Junction would offer the best classic line connections, but I think would be problematic for dispersal by road as its a long way from a decent trunk A road.

My money is on Toton:
- Politically neutral being on near boundary of Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire, placates Nottingham vs Derby rivalry a bit.
- 2 x 2 tracks from south currently underutilised (hence minimal demolition / tunneling
- Large amount of brownfield land available on the flat, esp where former sidings have been removed to east of site
- Good road access with new junction on A52 (near M1 J25),
- Tram would only need to be extended a further 1/2 a mile from currently planned terminus at Bardills roundabout.
- Classic line connections would be a bit more complex - with some additional Chords to north of Toton you could maybe route Nottingham-Matlock and Lincoln-Leicester trains via Toton without having to change direction, then you would cover most stations in East Midlands Region with minor journey time increase
- South end of Toton sidings is actually closer to Long Eaton town centre than current Long Eaton station
- Good bus connections in the area (Indigo etc)
- Cycle connections via Erewash Valley trail and NCN 67
- Our local councillors & MP seem to think Toton is on the cards.
I guess we'll finally find out for sure within the next few months when the phase 2 route is announced...

 

[Nym]

Have to say congrats, thats the first decent idea for the EMP station I have seen...

Now just to hammer out Leeds and Sheffeild... (I'm a fan of using the car park at Leeds and Nunnery Square at Sheffeild, combined with re-opening for passengers the line to Penistone from Victoria and building a hybrid station to take some pressure off Midland, laying the foundations so if Woodhead re-opened the space in Sheffeild is there)

 

[LE Greys]

Hmm, isn't East Mids parkway is a bit far south, for a HS line from Bham-Sheffield? you'd need some big curves to get the radius?
A station at Trent Junction would offer the best classic line connections, but I think would be problematic for dispersal by road as its a long way from a decent trunk A road.

My money is on Toton:
- Politically neutral being on near boundary of Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire, placates Nottingham vs Derby rivalry a bit.
- 2 x 2 tracks from south currently underutilised (hence minimal demolition / tunneling
- Large amount of brownfield land available on the flat, esp where former sidings have been removed to east of site
- Good road access with new junction on A52 (near M1 J25),
- Tram would only need to be extended a further 1/2 a mile from currently planned terminus at Bardills roundabout.
- Classic line connections would be a bit more complex - with some additional Chords to north of Toton you could maybe route Nottingham-Matlock and Lincoln-Leicester trains via Toton without having to change direction, then you would cover most stations in East Midlands Region with minor journey time increase
- South end of Toton sidings is actually closer to Long Eaton town centre than current Long Eaton station
- Good bus connections in the area (Indigo etc)
- Cycle connections via Erewash Valley trail and NCN 67
- Our local councillors & MP seem to think Toton is on the cards.
I guess we'll finally find out for sure within the next few months when the phase 2 route is announced...

Well, it does make sense in some ways. I still don't quite buy the notion of planting a station in the middle of a goods yard, but that's probably just me. I was thinking along the lines of somewhere that would require minimal rebuilding, already has a station where EMT expresses pass through, was pretty much equidistant from Nottingham, Derby and Loughborough, with good access from Leicester (and possibly Corby and Burton-on-Trent), reasonable access to the M1 and East Midlands Airport, and finally makes EMP useful for something. I'd expect the line to be diving underground near Toton, to resurface somewhere around the GCR alignment, then hopefully heading for Sheffield Victoria - where I believe there is still plenty of open space for a station.

 

[Martin222002]

Hmm, isn't East Mids parkway is a bit far south, for a HS line from Bham-Sheffield? you'd need some big curves to get the radius?
A station at Trent Junction would offer the best classic line connections, but I think would be problematic for dispersal by road as its a long way from a decent trunk A road.

My money is on Toton:
- Politically neutral being on near boundary of Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire, placates Nottingham vs Derby rivalry a bit.
- 2 x 2 tracks from south currently underutilised (hence minimal demolition / tunneling
- Large amount of brownfield land available on the flat, esp where former sidings have been removed to east of site
- Good road access with new junction on A52 (near M1 J25),
- Tram would only need to be extended a further 1/2 a mile from currently planned terminus at Bardills roundabout.
- Classic line connections would be a bit more complex - with some additional Chords to north of Toton you could maybe route Nottingham-Matlock and Lincoln-Leicester trains via Toton without having to change direction, then you would cover most stations in East Midlands Region with minor journey time increase
- South end of Toton sidings is actually closer to Long Eaton town centre than current Long Eaton station
- Good bus connections in the area (Indigo etc)
- Cycle connections via Erewash Valley trail and NCN 67
- Our local councillors & MP seem to think Toton is on the cards.
I guess we'll finally find out for sure within the next few months when the phase 2 route is announced...

I full agree. Toton is a much better location than the current East Midlands Parkway station site, which in my mind is just a bit out of the way for people in Derby and Nottingham plus the surrounding areas.

An important thing to point out is that for people living south of Loughborough wouldn't see any journey time benefits from using the HS2 East Midlands station, and even for Loughborough there would only be a 2 minute saving on the current fastest direct journey time to London of 1 hour 22 minutes, which is set to become less once 125mph operation starts on the MML in December, and this is even factoring in a 10 minute change at the HS2 station, which could easily be higher than that. So the focus of this station should be very much on serving the people of Nottingham, Derby and the surrounding towns and communities, which I think Toton is the best site I know of.

As brianthegiant said, you have the potential to link it to the extended Nottingham tram network, giving excellent links to the station for people in Beeston and the south west of Nottingham.

As for conventional rail links, no work really needs doing over than building platforms. Services wise, the current Northern Leeds to Nottingham service could be routed via Toton and Beeston (as it already ocationaly does in the early morning and evening) and potential increased to a half hourly frequency (extending the second on the Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley services), which would give Chesterfield, Alfreton, Langley Mill and Nottingham fast direct service to the HS2 station. In addition to potential 2 Leeds to Nottingham services, the Worksop/Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham could be extended from Nottingham to the Toton HS2 station, giving Nottingham 4tph to Toton as well as linking HS2 to places on the Robin Hood Line.

As for linking Derby to the HS2 station I would suggest running non-stop shuttle service every 15-20 minutes. I wouldn't divert any of the current services between Derby and Nottingham, as it would have a time penalty whatever you do which would detract from the passenger flows between the two cities. Also to consider is the capacity, as the Nottingham to Matlock services can get very busy at peak time, and as such wouldn't be able to serve the HS2 station without causing major overcrowding on this service.

As for Sheffield. I think the best location would be the old Victoria station site, being located on the edge of the city centre. I prefer a city centre location for the Sheffield station over a station to the north east of the city for the pure point that it would take people south and west of Sheffield substantially longer to get to, having to drive into the city centre before heading out to an edge of city station, and potentially adding around 20 minutes to there overall journey. Also, given that some of Sheffield's most prosperous suburbs are to the south west of the city, this would be affecting what would be some of Sheffield's most frequent HS2 users.

A station on the old Victoria site could be easily linked to the Supertram network with a small branch off in the city centre at Castle Square with a triangular station/junction, where half of the current services could be diverted to serve the station. Conventional rail services from Lincoln and some services from destinations via Rotherham Central could easily diverted into the Victoria from the Midland station. However I can see a way that Barnsley (and places on the Barnsley line) could be linked to Victoria by rail.

 

[LE Greys]

I full agree. Toton is a much better location than the current East Midlands Parkway station site, which in my mind is just a bit out of the way for people in Derby and Nottingham plus the surrounding areas.

An important thing to point out is that for people living south of Loughborough wouldn't see any journey time benefits from using the HS2 East Midlands station, and even for Loughborough there would only be a 2 minute saving on the current fastest direct journey time to London of 1 hour 22 minutes, which is set to become less once 125mph operation starts on the MML in December, and this is even factoring in a 10 minute change at the HS2 station, which could easily be higher than that. So the focus of this station should be very much on serving the people of Nottingham, Derby and the surrounding towns and communities, which I think Toton is the best site I know of.

As brianthegiant said, you have the potential to link it to the extended Nottingham tram network, giving excellent links to the station for people in Beeston and the south west of Nottingham.

As for conventional rail links, no work really needs doing over than building platforms. Services wise, the current Northern Leeds to Nottingham service could be routed via Toton and Beeston (as it already ocationaly does in the early morning and evening) and potential increased to a half hourly frequency (extending the second on the Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley services), which would give Chesterfield, Alfreton, Langley Mill and Nottingham fast direct service to the HS2 station. In addition to potential 2 Leeds to Nottingham services, the Worksop/Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham could be extended from Nottingham to the Toton HS2 station, giving Nottingham 4tph to Toton as well as linking HS2 to places on the Robin Hood Line.

As for linking Derby to the HS2 station I would suggest running non-stop shuttle service every 15-20 minutes. I wouldn't divert any of the current services between Derby and Nottingham, as it would have a time penalty whatever you do which would detract from the passenger flows between the two cities. Also to consider is the capacity, as the Nottingham to Matlock services can get very busy at peak time, and as such wouldn't be able to serve the HS2 station without causing major overcrowding on this service.

As for Sheffield. I think the best location would be the old Victoria station site, being located on the edge of the city centre. I prefer a city centre location for the Sheffield station over a station to the north east of the city for the pure point that it would take people south and west of Sheffield substantially longer to get to, having to drive into the city centre before heading out to an edge of city station, and potentially adding around 20 minutes to there overall journey. Also, given that some of Sheffield's most prosperous suburbs are to the south west of the city, this would be affecting what would be some of Sheffield's most frequent HS2 users.

A station on the old Victoria site could be easily linked to the Supertram network with a small branch off in the city centre at Castle Square with a triangular station/junction, where half of the current services could be diverted to serve the station. Conventional rail services from Lincoln and some services from destinations via Rotherham Central could easily diverted into the Victoria from the Midland station. However I can see a way that Barnsley (and places on the Barnsley line) could be linked to Victoria by rail.

That's interesting, a split between the former LNER and LMS routes in Sheffield might well help with congestion. If the diagrams on this page are anything to go by, then the former LNER lines could be routed through Tinsley, with an improved connection to Rotherham Central and possibly the reopening of Rotherham Masborough. The Woodhead end of the route is highly unlikely, but it's an option worth considering. Might be useful if it was gauged for HS2 stock as a diversionary route/link between the two arms of the "Y".

As for Loughborough, as I've said before, people might want to go north on HS2 rather than south.

 

[HSTEd]

As I understand it the bottom floor of the Victoria Centre these days is just a car park.

Could you not build a box station into a slightly enlarged bottom level of the centre?
Would reduce the cost compared to building an all new station box.

 

[LE Greys]

As I understand it the bottom floor of the Victoria Centre these days is just a car park.

Could you not build a box station into a slightly enlarged bottom level of the centre?
Would reduce the cost compared to building an all new station box.

Probably a bit difficult underpinning the entire Victoria Centre to do so, and you would have to recut the tunnels to cope with it. Still, it's worth looking at as an option.

 

[HSTEd]

Probably a bit difficult underpinning the entire Victoria Centre to do so, and you would have to recut the tunnels to cope with it. Still, it's worth looking at as an option.

Or even just using the car park as the "concourse" for the station and putting the platforms below it in tubes.

 

[brianthegiant]

the current Northern Leeds to Nottingham service could be routed via Toton and Beeston (as it already ocationaly does in the early morning and evening) and potential increased to a half hourly frequency (extending the second on the Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley services), which would give Chesterfield, Alfreton, Langley Mill and Nottingham fast direct service to the HS2 station. In addition to potential 2 Leeds to Nottingham services, the Worksop/Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham could be extended from Nottingham to the Toton HS2 station, giving Nottingham 4tph to Toton as well as linking HS2 to places on the Robin Hood Line.

hadn't thought about Nottingham-Leeds, very good idea, like it

As for linking Derby to the HS2 station I would suggest running non-stop shuttle service every 15-20 minutes. I wouldn't divert any of the current services between Derby and Nottingham, as it would have a time penalty whatever you do which would detract from the passenger flows between the two cities.

good point
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, it does make sense in some ways. I still don't quite buy the notion of planting a station in the middle of a goods yard, but that's probably just me.

I think the thing is that you need a lot of Land for a HS station, longer trains more passengers to disperse, lots of space for parking, pick up/drop off, taxis, buses etc.

There is already a hot debate around Beeston/Broxtowe about green belt development, so if you can build on a brownfield site you'll get less opposition locally.

We would be talking about a major development on (probably the eastern) edge of Toton, so it would exist fairly independently of the rest of Toton, as such it would be no different form other stations which are near to NR / freight yards.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

As I understand it the bottom floor of the Victoria Centre these days is just a car park.

Could you not build a box station into a slightly enlarged bottom level of the centre?
Would reduce the cost compared to building an all new station box.

Probably a bit difficult underpinning the entire Victoria Centre to do so, and you would have to recut the tunnels to cope with it. Still, it's worth looking at as an option.

The cutting should be long enough to accommodate 400m trains (Wiki says the site is 590m long) and the original station had 390m platforms. How much of that is taken up by the foundations of the Victoria centre I do not know. The tunnels would have to be extended because of the trams and because someone has built a centre for Contemporary Art in front of the south tunnel entrance

 

[ole man]

I have two questions regarding HS2.

Who will run HS2, i mean infrastructure maintainance, will it be NWR?
And the new station at OOC will it affect FGW and Heathrow Express?

 

[HSTEd]

I have two questions regarding HS2.

Who will run HS2, i mean infrastructure maintainance, will it be NWR?
And the new station at OOC will it affect FGW and Heathrow Express?

I assume the infrastructure maintenance will be kept seperate so its easier to sell off to the lowest bidder.
Heathrow Express is going to cease to exist before then thansk to crossrail anyway isn't it?

 

[ole man]

I havent a clue, never heard that, so Crossrail will go into Heathrow?.
Where will whoever runs those services stable there trains overnight, if HS2 is to have a station at OOC?, i mean surely the station at OOC will take up a bit of room.

 

[HSTEd]

I havent a clue, never heard that, so Crossrail will go into Heathrow?.
Where will whoever runs those services stable there trains overnight, if HS2 is to have a station at OOC?, i mean surely the station at OOC will take up a bit of room.

Apparently Heathrow Connect and possibly express will be folded into Crossrail, and as for stabling I'm not sure but they will almost certainly have issues with locating sufficient sidings now that a bunch of OOC ones will be displaced by the new station.

 

[LE Greys]

Apparently Heathrow Connect and possibly express will be folded into Crossrail, and as for stabling I'm not sure but they will almost certainly have issues with locating sufficient sidings now that a bunch of OOC ones will be displaced by the new station.

Connect might be, but BAA have been refusing to let Express go. They seem to think that (A) passengers will prefer to take a taxi or change at Paddington and (B) the dedicated non-stop service to "Central London" is important. The sky-high fares might also have something to do with it. :roll:

 

[Chris125]

Its a bit early to know precisely what will happen at OOC but im pretty sure platforms on the GWML are included - with the Heathrow link coming later Heathrow Express will almost certainly call there, whether it remains a stand-alone service or becomes part of Crossrail.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

Its a bit early to know precisely what will happen at OOC but im pretty sure platforms on the GWML are included - with the Heathrow link coming later Heathrow Express will almost certainly call there, whether it remains a stand-alone service or becomes part of Crossrail.

Chris

The latest DfT sketches only show a Heathrow spur to/from the north. I think they might be gradually coming round to the sensible idea that a HS link from
London through Heathrow isn't necessary, because that role is satisfied by Hex and/or HConn.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I havent a clue, never heard that, so Crossrail will go into Heathrow?.
Where will whoever runs those services stable there trains overnight, if HS2 is to have a station at OOC?, i mean surely the station at OOC will take up a bit of room.

Crossrail has always been planned to take over from Heathrow Connect, running 4 tph to the airport rather than the current 2 tph.

The Crossrail depot site, although relatively large, is basically up against the northeast side of what is very much a triangular site - so doesn't impact on the HS2 station.

However the HS2 station does seem to overlap with the current HEx depot.

DfT have a map showing how it all goes together: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-maps-20120110/hs2arp00drrw05301issue3.pdf

 

[Rational Plan]

Connect might be, but BAA have been refusing to let Express go. They seem to think that (A) passengers will prefer to take a taxi or change at Paddington and (B) the dedicated non-stop service to "Central London" is important. The sky-high fares might also have something to do with it. :roll:

BAA's control over the airport express expires in 2023. As crossrail is looking to ramp up services in stages. That would probably be perfect timing for a recast of the Great Western.

 

[Zoe]

BAA's control over the airport express expires in 2023. As crossrail is looking to ramp up services in stages. That would probably be perfect timing for a recast of the Great Western.

They do however own the line from Airport Junction to Heathrow. Do they have to allow any train the DfT tell them to use that line?

 

[HSTEd]

They do however own the line from Airport Junction to Heathrow. Do they have to allow any train the DfT tell them to use that line?

Well DfT could probably just say there were no paths available for non Crossrail Services.
Open Access requirements are as the network allows remember......

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Out of curiosity what kind of infrastructure improvements would the great western mainline need to support 140mph line speeds (beyond re-signalling), given that IEP trains will be capable of such speeds with modifications. If the line can be improved to support such speeds then a dedicated high speed line to the south west seems unlikely.