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High Speed Rail beyond HS2

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Double Decker trains sound good but you'd then restrict High Speed trains to only running on High Speed lines - which would complicate things.
I thought that was the plan for HS in the UK, a segregated High Speed line with a captive fleet to European UIC GB or higher.
The only access to HS2 as proposed in phase one, is to the depots and maintenance facilities, such as the one proposed to be sited near....is it Quainton? - plus the link into the classic network beyond Birmingham.
The extra capability is the "Classic Compatible" fleet needed to run off phase one onto the classic lines to Manchester and Leeds, until phase two is delivered to those destinations. That fleet may then be re-employed to run off the end to a few additional destinations as capacity allows.

Without reading back through this thread, I don't know if the discussion has covered who will own and run this line?
There's a very good chance it won't come under the Network Rail umbrella, and will be handed out to a management company, like HS1. That conversation is going on at the moment.
As such, HS2 will not be part of the normal rail network, either physically or in ownership and operation.

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JohnCarlson

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I thought that was the plan for HS in the UK, a segregated High Speed line with a captive fleet to European UIC GB or higher.
The only access to HS2 as proposed in phase one, is to the depots and maintenance facilities, such as the one proposed to be sited near....is it Quainton? - plus the link into the classic network beyond Birmingham.
The extra capability is the "Classic Compatible" fleet needed to run off phase one onto the classic lines to Manchester and Leeds, until phase two is delivered to those destinations. That fleet may then be re-employed to run off the end to a few additional destinations as capacity allows.

Without reading back through this thread, I don't know if the discussion has covered who will own and run this line?
There's a very good chance it won't come under the Network Rail umbrella, and will be handed out to a management company, like HS1. That conversation is going on at the moment.
As such, HS2 will not be part of the normal rail network, either physically or in ownership and operation.

.


My and I am sure others point of view has been that HS2 should operate on a "pile it high, sell it cheap" basis with double deck captive trains and longer classic compatible trains.


When HS2 was first mooted it sounded like it would definitely be a separate company running it and there would be a private cash contribution to its construction. It now sounds like the government is going to pay the whole cost so not sure what is going to happen.
 

Chris125

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This line will never be full without intermediate stations but oh well, we must build a line exactly like the french one.

If HS2 trains werent going beyond the High Speed network then i'd agree, and if it was built 'exactly like a french one' and used existing lines to access termini then i would be concerned too - thank god thats not the case then...

I thought that was the plan for HS in the UK, a segregated High Speed line with a captive fleet to European UIC GB or higher.

Correct - there will be 'captive' trainsets, equivalent to the TGV/AGV/Duplex trains on the continent but due to their size restricted to HS2.

Then there will be 'classic compatible', an equivalent of the Eurostar which will have to fit the UK loading guage.

Chris
 

HSTEd

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If HS2 trains werent going beyond the High Speed network then i'd agree, and if it was built 'exactly like a french one' and used existing lines to access termini then i would be concerned too - thank god thats not the case then...

Correct - there will be 'captive' trainsets, equivalent to the TGV/AGV/Duplex trains on the continent but due to their size restricted to HS2.

Then there will be 'classic compatible', an equivalent of the Eurostar which will have to fit the UK loading guage.

Chris

I was referring to the French model of huge distances between stations which is based on the rather anemic acceleration and (regen only) decelleration of conventional power car and trailer high speed formations such as conventional TGV (yes I know that TGVs aren't completely like that, but I hope you get what Im driving at) sets.

The UK's population distribution (especially in the London-Birmingham-Leeds/Manchester axis) is far more suited to a railway along the lines of the Shinkansen, with more stops and a mix of stopping and fast services which allows the railway to be more heavily used from day one and allows the Virgin services to do what they are supposed to do, switch to minor stations, rather than having to serve places such as Rugby and Milton Keynes.

Whether or not the French model provides more capacity is not really relevent because either way you are looking at an extreme increase capacity that could take decades to fill, meanwhile we are paying for the entire investment.

The more trains on the line the quicker the better. Intermediate stations would allow this occur more easily, and do so without significantly prejudicing the end to end travel time on express trains (I calced based on Shinkansen timetables ~45 minutes even for the more circuitous route I proposed via Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby and Coventry thanks to the drastically improved acceleration of said trainsets, and that was on a line where the trains have to tilt to sustain 170mph)
 

Chris125

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Where's the logic in that? A much more expensive, longer and slower route just to serve places which will see an improvement because of HS2 anyway.

Its all besides the point, because HS2 when phase 2 is finished will be catering for traffic from Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Sheffield, Nottingham, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh and a whole host of other destinations - coming up with schemes to use spare capacity seems bizarre.

Chris
 

HSTEd

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Where's the logic in that? A much more expensive, longer and slower route just to serve places which will see an improvement because of HS2 anyway.

Its all besides the point, because HS2 when phase 2 is finished will be catering for traffic from Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Sheffield, Nottingham, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh and a whole host of other destinations - coming up with schemes to use spare capacity seems bizarre.

Chris

Actually the route would be just as fast thanks to the insane acceleration of Shinkansen style trainsets :)
At 320kph the extra distance dissapears in about three minutes.

As it is Sheffield, Nottingham and York will recieve no captive services at all and simply have to make do with CC services, this way they get he full captive service and we get more passenger capacity because all those trains can be double decks. (Even a train that runs London-Birmingham Int.-East MIdlands AIrport-Nottingham-Sheffield cuts 35 minutes or more off the current best Sheffield time)

And are you seriously proposing you can fill 18 trains per hour or more in a reasonable amount of time without deliberately running short CC trains on the line indepedently to use up paths.

Yes, these places will see an "improvement" but the improvement will be tiny compared to the one they could have gotten with no serious inconvenience to anyone else.
 

LE Greys

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I was referring to the French model of huge distances between stations which is based on the rather anemic acceleration and (regen only) decelleration of conventional power car and trailer high speed formations such as conventional TGV (yes I know that TGVs aren't completely like that, but I hope you get what Im driving at) sets.

The UK's population distribution (especially in the London-Birmingham-Leeds/Manchester axis) is far more suited to a railway along the lines of the Shinkansen, with more stops and a mix of stopping and fast services which allows the railway to be more heavily used from day one and allows the Virgin services to do what they are supposed to do, switch to minor stations, rather than having to serve places such as Rugby and Milton Keynes.

Whether or not the French model provides more capacity is not really relevent because either way you are looking at an extreme increase capacity that could take decades to fill, meanwhile we are paying for the entire investment.

The more trains on the line the quicker the better. Intermediate stations would allow this occur more easily, and do so without significantly prejudicing the end to end travel time on express trains (I calced based on Shinkansen timetables ~45 minutes even for the more circuitous route I proposed via Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby and Coventry thanks to the drastically improved acceleration of said trainsets, and that was on a line where the trains have to tilt to sustain 170mph)

I'd prefer something more like the German model, where ICE is part of the conventional network, with trains running off and on the high-speed routes to serve far more places than in France - usually the original stations in city centres. ICE is basically an Intercity-style network with some fast bits. It's slightly slower, but serves more people overall. I don't know the economics of it, but that's probably cheaper as well. Our settlement patterns and population density are much more like Germany than France. Japan is a different case, since their classic lines are 3ft 6 gauge, so Shinkansen stock is incompatible.

That's why many of my high-speed ideas are essentially super-upgrades of existing routes. We have all the major stations we need (some aren't big enough, but that's another issue) it's how we connect them that's important. Essentially, we already have enough major routes as well, it's just a matter of how much capacity we put into them. I see HS1 as essentially part of the Kent Coast route that makes an end-on junction with LGV Nord. HS2 is therefore a new southern section of the WCML. I'll say that again. High-Speed 2 is a new southern section of the West Coast Main Line! Once the planners get that into their heads, then maybe they can start thinking slightly more sensibly about several additional lines in a radial pattern surrounding London.

I hate to bring the Serpell Report into it, but the Option A map is roughly very similar to the network I would design. Look at the top of the page.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2008/09/01-serpell-report-feature.html
 

HSTEd

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I did some more quick number crunching:

Currently the population of the three major cities that will benefit from the captive services on HS2 are as follows (excluding London obviously):

Birmingham: ~3,000,000
Manchester: ~2,600,000
Leeds: ~2,900,000 (assuming the huge Leeds economic areas population)

Total Population: ~8,500,000

While the populations of the cities/towns that would be connected weret he proposal redeveloped as a Shinkansen style line with little journey time inconvenience to the rest of the network (Leeds and Manchester 80 minute journey times remain feasible, as does ~45 minutes to Birmingham).

Rugby: 62,000
Milton Keynes: 240,000
Northampton: 212,000
Coventry: 651,000
Nottingham: 808,000
Sheffield: 1,300,000 (using the larger economic area figure as I did for Leeds)
Stafford: 122,000
Stoke On Trent/The Potteries: 362,000

Total Population: ~3,757,000

So I increase the total market for captive HS2 services (which are far more desirable from an operational point of view as they can be 400m long double decker trains with only one crew aboard, thus reducing the cost of operation and thus ticket prices and thus increasing the market for said journeys) by more than 40% and the only additional engineering challenges (other than things like the London tunnels and Manchester approach that are troublesome either way) is a slightly longer Chilterns tunnel and a probable tunnel and box station under Nottingham due to the lack of existing feasible routes.

Neither of which really increase the price of the route that much when you consider the benefits.
 
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TGV

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I was referring to the French model of huge distances between stations which is based on the rather anemic acceleration and (regen only) decelleration of conventional power car and trailer high speed formations such as conventional TGV (yes I know that TGVs aren't completely like that, but I hope you get what Im driving at) sets.

TGV-R sets have a higher power to weight ratio than any ICE/Velaro or and at 31hp/ton, only just less than the highest performance Shinkansen (Series N700) at 32hp per ton. And whereas the N700s top out at 300km/h, the TGV-R is 320km/h capable.

I've stood at Lille Europe and SPDC stations and seen TGV-R and Duplex sets depart and the word "anemic" is poorly chosen I'm afraid.
 
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I did some more quick number crunching:

Currently the population of the three major cities that will benefit from the captive services on HS2 are as follows (excluding London obviously):

Birmingham: ~3,000,000
Manchester: ~2,600,000
Leeds: ~2,900,000 (assuming the huge Leeds economic areas population)

Sheffield: 1,300,000 (using the larger economic area figure as I did for Leeds)
I'm confused by these figures as they don't bear any resemblance to any official figures, in various forms and combinations, or to the national census reports.

The most recent 2001 Census give.....
entire population of the west Midlands conurbation = 2.284 m
Greater Manchester Urban area = 2.244 m
entire West Yorkshire Urban area = 1.499 entire Sheffield conurbation (including Rotherham) = 640,720


.
 

HSTEd

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I'm confused by these figures as they don't bear any resemblance to any official figures, in various forms and combinations, or to the national census reports.

The most recent 2001 Census give.....
entire population of the west Midlands conurbation = 2.284 m
Greater Manchester Urban area = 2.244 m
entire West Yorkshire Urban area = 1.499 entire Sheffield conurbation (including Rotherham) = 640,720


.

This is because there are about fifty million different ways to define it.

If you go by the measure that puts the Sheffield conurbation at 640,000 you end up having to use the Leeds figure which puts the population at roughly 800,000 and thus be roughly the size of Nottingham. (the Leeds figure often quoted includes a huge area such as Wakefield and Huddersfield).

Additionally the Greater Manchester urban area is not contiguous with the area known as Greater Manchester, hence the differing figures.
The same applies for Birmingham with it "metropolitan area" being a vague term not contiguous with its "conurbation".

We could spend all day finding figures with supporting evidence that would give different answers every single time.


Yes, a TGV set accelerating may not be "anemic" but it is traction limited to a far higher speed than a Shinkansen set is, giving it a rather slow start to its acceleration to speed.
(Twelve powered axles tops on a 200m TGV set (do they all have the powered axles on the ends of the trailer formation?) compared to 32 on the 8 carriage N700-7000 sets, which would also have higher power to weight ratio due to not having the trailers from the long formation or due to lugging the tilting systems around that the 16 carriage trains carry).

I did some research on the N700s traction packages a while back and they seemed to be claiming they had reduced axle loading to 10.5t, which is confusing as that gives a different figure to the Wiki value, I shall investigate further - the Wiki value might be including passengers I suppose.)

Additionally the route is not designed for the use of TGV-R trainsets, it is designed with braking distances and times of far older stock due to it being built using the rather outdated UIC standards. (7700m stopping distances? the E5 can brake from 360kph in 4400m according to JR, using friction and rheostatic brakes only, and we have access to things like linear eddy current brakes - these are not carried in Japan due to concerns over overheating the rail which is apparently acceptable in Europe for emergency use)

These timings are derived from a timetable from the Tokaido and Sanyo Shinkansen which includes kilometre figures in the leftmost column, this route is the one I have used (despite most of it having 170mph or even lower speed limits) because it is the only timetable I can find published in english with the spacinig information.
 
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WatcherZero

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Its not been built yet, heck its not even in the final design stages, the figures are purely hypthetical in order to inform the predicted service patterns and economic data. When it is built they will do their own testing to determine permitted line speeds and braking distances and then build the timetable on top of that.
 
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This is because there are about fifty million different ways to define it.
That is very true, but I don't think there's any way you can concoct a figure of 2.9 million for the Leeds area, when that far exceeds the population figures for the whole of the West Yorkshire Urban area.

If you go by the measure that puts the Sheffield conurbation at 640,000 you end up having to use the Leeds figure which puts the population at roughly 800,000 and thus be roughly the size of Nottingham. (the Leeds figure often quoted includes a huge area such as Wakefield and Huddersfield).

The figure given for the Leeds City & Metropolitan district, is a population of 810,200.

The figure for the whole West Yorkshire Urban area (includes Leeds, Wakefield, Ossett, Dewsbury, Batley, Mirfield, Huddersfield, Holmfirth, Brighouse, Halifax, Bradford, Shipley, Keighley, Yeadon etc, etc,)
.....is given as 1.499 million.

That encompasses the bulk of the population centres around Leeds and the surrounding towns and covers a much larger area than Greater Manchester.. I can't see how you can almost double that figure by adding in the remaining settlements situated outside of that area?


.
 

TGV

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Yes, a TGV set accelerating may not be "anemic" but it is traction limited to a far higher speed than a Shinkansen set is, giving it a rather slow start to its acceleration to speed.
(Twelve powered axles tops on a 200m TGV set (do they all have the powered axles on the ends of the trailer formation?).

No, only TGV-SE and TMST (Eurostar) have that layout. The others are all confined to power cars only - 8 driven axles per 380t 200m set.

This, further supports your side of the debate though because the shinkansen philosophy is a train that can provide a more stop-start high speed service in a densely populated region whereas the TGV approach is a service that is wound up to max speed and left there for long distances stopping only once or twice on LGVs.

I think if the UK had a service from London to Glasgow, stopping 3 or 4 times, it falls neatly between the two approaches. Which one would be best is a compromise - as things usually are. I personally prefer the SNCF method, but I'm admittedly biased there... In reality, I doubt there would be much difference when applied to the UK. Other than the fact neither would fit off the HS lines!
 

LE Greys

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No, only TGV-SE and TMST (Eurostar) have that layout. The others are all confined to power cars only - 8 driven axles per 380t 200m set.

This, further supports your side of the debate though because the shinkansen philosophy is a train that can provide a more stop-start high speed service in a densely populated region whereas the TGV approach is a service that is wound up to max speed and left there for long distances stopping only once or twice on LGVs.

I think if the UK had a service from London to Glasgow, stopping 3 or 4 times, it falls neatly between the two approaches. Which one would be best is a compromise - as things usually are. I personally prefer the SNCF method, but I'm admittedly biased there... In reality, I doubt there would be much difference when applied to the UK. Other than the fact neither would fit off the HS lines!

That makes reasonable sense. Birmingham Int-Crewe-Preston-Carlisle on the current WCML when the first section is built, perhaps Birmingham Int-Manchester-Preston-Carlisle when the line is complete. Of course, it wouldn't be the only train on the route, but perhaps one per hour would use this stopping pattern, the other would cover Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie, Carstairs and Motherwell as well. The question would be whether to run it via Manchester on the new line or Crewe on the old line. There really ought to be one per hour via Milton Keynes and the WCML, but I don't think that's very likely.
 

HSTEd

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That is very true, but I don't think there's any way you can concoct a figure of 2.9 million for the Leeds area, when that far exceeds the population figures for the whole of the West Yorkshire Urban area.



The figure given for the Leeds City & Metropolitan district, is a population of 810,200.

The figure for the whole West Yorkshire Urban area (includes Leeds, Wakefield, Ossett, Dewsbury, Batley, Mirfield, Huddersfield, Holmfirth, Brighouse, Halifax, Bradford, Shipley, Keighley, Yeadon etc, etc,)
.....is given as 1.499 million.

That encompasses the bulk of the population centres around Leeds and the surrounding towns and covers a much larger area than Greater Manchester.. I can't see how you can almost double that figure by adding in the remaining settlements situated outside of that area?


.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how I managed to do that.....

But if you look at the map of West YOrkshire Urban area is riddled with bits that are excluded from it, so perhaps the entire population of West Yorkshire would be better (2.2 million).

EDIT:

Got it, I was using the Leeds City Region which is all of West Yorkshire and has bits of South Yorkshire and so on.
 
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NJTom

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Not wanting to appear quite as the Daily Mail reading Tory that I am .... does not the prospect of an independent Scotland completely negate the business plan for HS2?
 

HSTEd

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Not wanting to appear quite as the Daily Mail reading Tory that I am .... does not the prospect of an independent Scotland completely negate the business plan for HS2?

So Newcastle will be left to rot?

Not really, although I'm not sure independence will actually happen.
 

tripleseis

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The Scottish will still want/need to travel to London and the same for the English. A HS link will be built regardless of what happens north of Berwick-on-Tweed.
 

LE Greys

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The Scottish will still want/need to travel to London and the same for the English. A HS link will be built regardless of what happens north of Berwick-on-Tweed.

Not by the English if the great, protectionist president gets his way. :roll:
 

Badger

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That is very true, but I don't think there's any way you can concoct a figure of 2.9 million for the Leeds area, when that far exceeds the population figures for the whole of the West Yorkshire Urban area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_city_region

Wikipedia: ...This sub-region (defined by local labour markets and journey-to-work areas) covers the whole of West Yorkshire and parts of neighbouring North and South Yorkshire; that is, the ten local authority districts of Barnsley, Bradford, Calderdale, Craven, Harrogate, Kirklees, Leeds, Selby, Wakefield, and York. With close to 3 million people...

Not saying I agree, just pointing out where the figure comes from.

Metropolitan area figures aren't particularly useful for railways. For instance, Dudley, while in the Birmingham metropolitan area and the West Midlands conurbation, has no railway station! (with a population of ~300,000).

Edit: Apologies, I was a page behind!
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_city_region

Not saying I agree, just pointing out where the figure comes from.
That artificial region is a vehicle for the work of that particular economic development group.
It includes different regions (e.g. Barnsley, Harrogate, York etc,) that are not normally considered as "Leeds" and that are outside the West Yorkshire Urban area. So it's true you could come up with all sorts of spurious figures to make various claims.

The equivalent on the other side of the Pennines would see something like Greater Manchester lumped in with Macclesfield, Altringham, Warrington, Runcorn, Widnes and possibly Liverpool.

.
 

Waverley125

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Re: Leeds' population, if you take everywhere within a 30 minute rail journey of Leeds, you'll get

Bradford
York
Huddersfield
Pontefract
Castleford
Normanton
Wakefield
Dewsbury
Selby
Doncaster

which would bring the total population up to about 2m people. The same metric would also exclude Wigan, Altrincham, Marple, Littleborough and several other bits of Greater Manchester
 

tbtc

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So the people of Barnsley are counted as being both in Leeds *and* Sheffield at the same time?

Schrodinger's Whippet?
 

Gareth

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Leeds doesn't even cover several places within the Leeds City Council area, let alone within other local authorities.
 

Waverley125

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Gareth-Leeds an a continuous urban area, no, the obvious reason for this is the topography of the LCR which isn't conducive to urban sprawl. But as an economic & infrastructure area, it certainly does.

Tbtc-Barnsley's a border town, as is Doncaster. Put it this way, I'd expect for northbound journeys on HS2 (i.e. to Newcastle & Edinburgh in future) they'd go to Leeds, and for Southbound they'd go to Sheffield.
 

tbtc

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Tbtc-Barnsley's a border town, as is Doncaster. Put it this way, I'd expect for northbound journeys on HS2 (i.e. to Newcastle & Edinburgh in future) they'd go to Leeds, and for Southbound they'd go to Sheffield.

Yes, but you can't double count it in the way that it was being used in this thread (to beef up both the Sheffield and Leeds populations).
 

HSTEd

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Yes, but you can't double count it in the way that it was being used in this thread (to beef up both the Sheffield and Leeds populations).

Alright, I'l use it to beef up the Sheffield population, thus strengthening my argument :)

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics
 

Chris125

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Actually the route would be just as fast thanks to the insane acceleration of Shinkansen style trainsets :)
At 320kph the extra distance dissapears in about three minutes.

Its not that simple though. If you want to serve intermediate towns between Birmingham and London not only do you extend the route and journey times, but you have to route the line through built up areas and build stations central enough to be attractive - considerably increasing the cost of the line.

You suggest this needs to be done because HS2 will have too much spare capacity, which seems highly unlikely, yet you propose something which leaves the WCML underutilised instead. As your proposal would cost a lot more to build, sacrifice long-distance journey times and damage the business case for further extensions, i cant see the point.

Of course, even if there was a lot of spare capacity, providing new services via HS2 will produce much greater benefits than new services using space capacity on the WCML.

I'd prefer something more like the German model, where ICE is part of the conventional network, with trains running off and on the high-speed routes to serve far more places than in France - usually the original stations in city centres.

HS2 should be built to suit this countries characteristics, geography and journey patterns - capacity constraints (especially around London,
Birmingham and Manchester) and loading gauge make a dedicated line both viable and neccesary.

Chris
 
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HSTEd

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Its not that simple though. If you want to serve intermediate towns between Birmingham and London not only do you extend the route and journey times, but you have to route the line through built up areas and build stations central enough to be attractive - considerably increasing the cost of the line.

You suggest this needs to be done because HS2 will have too much spare capacity, which seems highly unlikely, yet you propose something which leaves the WCML underutilised instead. As this would cost a lot more to build, sacrifice long-distance journey times and damages the business case for further extensions i cant see the point.

Even if there was a lot of spare capacity, HS2 opens up far more possibilities
to use it than the WCML does.



HS2 should be built to suit this countries characteristics, geography and journey patterns - capacity constraints (especially around London,
Birmingham and Manchester) and loading gauge make a dedicated line both viable and neccesary.

Chris

1. The extension in the route's length is not significant, fast trains to Birmingham and Manchester/Leeds will not notice the difference in journey times. One might as well argue the case for building the line as a completely straight line between London and Birmingham.

2. Building the line through Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby and Coventry would require by my reckoning only an extension of the Chiltern tunnel and three additional short stretches of tunnel (at Milton Keynes, Northampton and Rugby)
This with the Rugby and Coventry stations built adjacent to or integrated into the existing stations and the new Milton Keynes station built inside the "grid pattern" of the city. (Hard to really say centre as MK is rather decentralised compared to many cities).
These tunnels come to a grand total of roughly 12 route kilometres.

The extension to the Chiltern tunnel is far harder to calculate due to the fact that it keeps changing in the current HS2 plans and the fact that the route is apparently being specced to quite conservative gradient requirements. (2.5% max gradient compared to the 4.0% on atleast one German HS route, you might even be able to cross the chilterns with no tunnels at all using the latter specification, although the NIMBYs would not like the resultant viaducts, embankments and cuttings).

Lets say 15 route kilometres of extra tunnel, using the costs published by HS2 Ltd here this comes to roughly £420m pounds.
Well add in additional costs such as inflation and viaducts or whatever to traverse the area around the Rugby station as in my rough proposal here and come up with a rough cost increase estimate of roughly a billion pounds including the extra stations (which would be simple two platform face, two through road affairs, probably with the through roads on the outside and a single island platform).

Even so, the cost of the extra trackage and tunneling pales in comparison with the overall cost of the project.

Now to the "it reduces capacity argument".

There is no shortage of capacity on HS2, unless you really think we are going to be abel to find tens of thousands of passengers flowing each way every hour. (Even during rush hour this is pushing it).

400m Double Deck trains (taking maximum advantage of the infrastructure) have a capacity of over 1200 seats a peice, therefore I cannot see any reasonable reason to assume more than 2tph to either Birmingham, Leeds or Mancehster would required, with 2tph also proving more than enough for any reasonable expansion of the network to Scotland if the more logical route via Newcastle was taken (the trains can all serve Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow in that case).

The possibility of stopping and semi fast services (serving the "stopping stations" on the phase 2 sections of track) becomes neccesary to ever have a hope of using up the 18tph available, especially if the sensible step of requiring CC trains to couple into 400m formations prior to travelling over the core section is taken. (And before anyone complains about that affecting journey times, journey times are so dismal to the places likely to recieve CC trains long-term as to make the time taken to couple them into said formations almost trivial in comparison to the savings gained by the use of the line).

As to the charge that doing this would leave the WCML "underutilised"...
The more paths freeed on the WCML the better, as those paths will be useful for improved intermodal and London MIdland services, as well as the remaining Virgin services which will provide a measure of "economy intercity" service to secondary stations on the route.

Further extensions north of Leeds or maybe Newcastle have pretty poor economic value anyway unless value is ascribed to eliminating the major domestic air axis.
Either way such extensions would at most require 2tph over the core section if done correctly (via Newcastle rather than any ill concieved attempt to shorten the journey by a few tens of kilometres (and the required trackage by even less than that due to the lack of a readymade HS route to Edinburgh as a consequence of reaching Glasgow) by cutting straight through the middle of the Peak district and leaving the North East to rot).


The fact remains that the Shinkansen model is far more suitable than the TGV model, and while the extreme Shinkansen model is probably not the best thing for us to adopt, it provides a far better fit than the TGV model.


EDIT:

Note my route proposal is extremely unpolished, and while I was reviewing it to gain tunnel lengths I realised I could divert the line via a route through the Chilterns closer to Tring and probably shorten the tunnel requirements considerably, I will have to recalculate once I have worked out if that is feasible.
 
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