High Speed 2

[Geezertronic]

well, normally they just borrow the money for projects like this

Who off?

 

[j0hn0]

Who off?

banks, private equity firms, shareholders, governments, the usual really. That debt can then be traded in the same way that brought the recession. But this time it is good debt because they are building appreciating assets. A project like this would stimulate the economy enormously, not just in jobs, infrastructure and skills, but financially too.

I honestly do not think that there will be any issue with the financing. It is a very long term investment, but a very sound one that will stimulate activity in the markets.

There will no doubt be a fair amount of public spending on it too, but not in one 20bn lump

 

[Wendover35]

Would you like to sign a Number 10 petition arguing for the HS2 route to be built asap? If so, the petition is available here:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Fast-trains/

Please spread the word if you agree.

I'm nnterested to know what others think of the High Speed 2 route proposals. I live in the Chilterns and the local press and forum groups are, predictably, loudly opposed to it. Whether or not that means they are in the majority is another matter, but they are certainly vocal.

Personally, I'm all for it and think many of the concerns raised are just born out of fear of change, ignorant of facts. However, I'd be interested to know what others with an interest in railways think.

Look forward to reading people's comments.

Ian

Concerns are raised not due to ignorance of facts, but because of the poor choice of route that is being proposed. Destroying beautiful villages, towns and Chiltern hills is uncomprehendable. I can think of places that I would like to see a rail link through - but serious concern should be given to the impact to Chilterns. There are alternative routes that would impact much less on our countryside, villages and towns.

It is clear that the political motive behind choosing the Chiltern route as the first option is solely due to cost (rather than tunneling through High Wycombe - a costlier option - but less environmental impact).

Further, the M1 corridor route option should also be resurrected.

 

[Geezertronic]

Ignorance of the facts is rife amongst the camapigners against HS2, you only have to check out the Anti HS2 group on Facebook to recognise that.

"Who is going to benefit from a High Speed line to Birmingham" is a key comment, this totally ignores the fact that the plans for HS2 include a connection to the West Coast Mainline around Lichfield which means cites such as Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow and many others could benefit from decreased journey times using HS2 and either new high speed rolling stock or even Pendolinos running at 140mph

I'm not saying the right route has been chosen, but anti HS2 campaigners don't help themselves by not understanding the plans as they stand.

 

[LE Greys]

"Who is going to benefit from a High Speed line to Birmingham" is a key comment, this totally ignores the fact that the plans for HS2 include a connection to the West Coast Mainline around Lichfield which means cites such as Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow and many others could benefit from decreased journey times using HS2 and either new high speed rolling stock or even Pendolinos running at 140mph

I think a lot of it comes from seeing the WCML go through an expensive upgrade, and then effectively getting even more investment while other lines soldier on as usual. I'm still not convinced that the levy on ECML profits which partly broke GNER did not go partly on subsidising the WCML upgrade. That's why I'd have much rather seen an East Midlands route (even if not based on the GCR) thus helping out a route that has not seen much investment since the 1980s.

Don't get me wrong, HS2 is a great thing for the country. It's just it seems that somebody has got their priorities slightly wrong.

 

[Kneedown]

Sorry, but i won't be signing either. There are already two major routes to Scotland, and a choice of two routes to Birmingham. The money should be spent on improving and electrifying existing routes, bringing them up to a standard that is acceptable in this day and age, and also on the rolling stock to run on them.
Don't get me wrong, i support HS2, but not until existing routes are fully sorted out.

 

[Geezertronic]

I can't find the quote to hand at the moment but I have read somewhere that HS2 will be funded separately and won't be to the detriment of existing projects/proposals for legacy lines. We'd be waiting forever if that was the case

 

[jopsuk]

Concerns are raised not due to ignorance of facts, but because of the poor choice of route that is being proposed. Destroying beautiful villages, towns and Chiltern hills is uncomprehendable. I can think of places that I would like to see a rail link through - but serious concern should be given to the impact to Chilterns. There are alternative routes that would impact much less on our countryside, villages and towns.

It is clear that the political motive behind choosing the Chiltern route as the first option is solely due to cost (rather than tunneling through High Wycombe - a costlier option - but less environmental impact).

Further, the M1 corridor route option should also be resurrected.

Not in your back yard?

 

[j0hn0]

true, i would also like to see other peoples suggested routes which will be any better, which will of course blight other people.

Yesterday was a lovely sunny day, I went to a pub in hunningham just outside leamington by the river leam. Lovely it was, but hs2 is likely to pass very close to this area. Do i care? no, because it has to go somewhere and there are many many more places like this in the country.

 

[LE Greys]

true, i would also like to see other peoples suggested routes which will be any better, which will of course blight other people.

Take a look at this link:

http://www.greengauge21.net/

 

[TGV]

To the point of "who will benefit from a high speed line to Birmingham" - it's not existing to purely serve B'ham but points beyond, but it would be stupid to build a high speed line from London (the largest city in Eurpoe) and ignore Birmingham the 2nd largest city in the UK (and 8th largest urban area in Europe). Once built, I think you'd find that hundreds of thousands of people would use and therefore benefit from it. It's hypothetical to say that it "only" saves 20 minutes or so. The WCML wouldn't die - far from it - it would become a much more flexible local and freight route.

To the point that "There are already 2 main lines to Scotland" - yes, and neither can compete with Air travel times to the major cities north of the border - so if you want to capture that (significant) business and at the same time reduce the national carbon footprint - which is an international agreement we are committed to in the UK - then you can see the sense behind High Speed Rail, the whole way.

I've said it elsewhere - the UK is almost the perfect shape and size for high speed rail. The optimum journey distances are between 100 and 400 miles - that means that London to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh are all in the "sweet spot" where HSR can easily beat driving and flying times.

There is the usual question of "not in my back yard", but the truth is the bloody thing has to go somewhere. They managed to build a high speed line through the middle of Kent - the "Garden of England", so I don't see why we can't manage this using some sensible rules such as following where possible main roads or existing railways like we did with HS1. And if anyone asks - yes if the line was to travel past my house, i'd not care. And you have that in writing.

 

[Kneedown]

To the point that "There are already 2 main lines to Scotland" - yes, and neither can compete with Air travel times to the major cities north of the border.

Is that actually the case? Stations are generally pretty central to cities, but airports generally aren't. When you take into account getting to the airport which mat be a considerable way out of the city, checking in, clearing security, short flight to Scotland, wait for luggage, find way to city, is it really any quicker?
Perhaps someone has tried it?

 

[87015]

Is that actually the case? Stations are generally pretty central to cities, but airports generally aren't. When you take into account getting to the airport which mat be a considerable way out of the city, checking in, clearing security, short flight to Scotland, wait for luggage, find way to city, is it really any quicker?
Perhaps someone has tried it?

That relies on people actually going from city centre to city centre though. A large number will be coming from elsewhere and there are plenty places where Stansted/Luton are just as easy to get to if not easier than Euston or Kings X. The policy of making all the Scotch's first stop Warrington/York has basically handed everyone who travels from the home counties to Scotland to easyjet. It was marginal before, now its much easier aswell as usually cheaper and quicker.

 

[LE Greys]

That relies on people actually going from city centre to city centre though. A large number will be coming from elsewhere and there are plenty places where Stansted/Luton are just as easy to get to if not easier than Euston or Kings X. The policy of making all the Scotch's first stop Warrington/York has basically handed everyone who travels from the home counties to Scotland to easyjet. It was marginal before, now its much easier aswell as usually cheaper and quicker.

Quite right. Sooner or later, the Government is going to work out that not only is London not the centre of the universe, it's not even the centre of the country. That's why the pre-Beeching network was set up to provide direct links between many smaller places, not just lines radiating out from London. We ought to remember that while planning the new line.

HS1 got it about right with stations at Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Stations at Heathrow and Brackley would absorb a lot of the Home Counties passengers without forcing them to go into London (although Brackley relies on having connecting lines from Aylesbury, Milton Keynes and Banbury/Oxford). I'm used to changing at Peterborough or York to get to where I'm going, but then I'm an active twenty-five-year-old. It would be very awkward if I had mobility problems.

 

[90019]

well, normally they just borrow the money for projects like this

Who off?

"Hello, is that Ocean Finance?"

 

[j0hn0]

Take a look at this link:

http://www.greengauge21.net/

well, they actually endorse the route proposed by HS2

 

[LE Greys]

well, they actually endorse the route proposed by HS2

Not quite, they want a triangular junction with HS1 at St Pancras and a spur to Heathrow. Both sound like a very good idea.

 

[Bill EWS]

Talking about HST2! Today I caught the 07.55 from Aberdeen to Kings Cross, which arrived slightly early. I then got through the undeground at record speed, in that I got a ticket almost instantly and a Hammersmith train arrived as I got to the platform allowing me to catch the 15.30 HST for Weston Super Mare and arrived in Didcot approx 16.15 and was indoors at 16.20. That was one of the quickest timings I have ever done and can't imagone how you could do it any quicker.

Aberdeen to Didcot via Kings Cross in eight and a half hours is pretty good going, and there is still room for improvement by increasing restictions below 125 mph.

The first time I make this journey back in 1965 it took 15 hours. It seems today that we take it all for granted in our hurried World and all want to be at our destinations before we have left home!

The performance of the Aberdeen HST was noticeable from the word go in how quickly that unit exellerated and held it's speed every step of the way and I couldn't believe how the miles simply sped past. The drivers did an excellent job of timekeeping.

If only the Underground could be so guaranteed, that sort of journey could happen daily. Normally, I miss the 15.30 from Paddington.

My only grumble with the Eastcoast HST is the rather austeric livery, what a shame the grand old master's have been reduced to such a bare-bones, cheap looking livery.

 

[j0hn0]

Not quite, they want a triangular junction with HS1 at St Pancras and a spur to Heathrow. Both sound like a very good idea.

read further, yes you can see the route that they proposed almost a year ago, but read their response to the governments proposals.

We support...... etc etc

And if you read the report properly from the government, they are still examining the best way to link to HS1 and Heathrow.

For the initial stage, due to cost benefit ratios, these connections have not been included because a) it will be mostly tunnels through the centre of london and b) heathrow has 5 terminals, where would YOU put the HS2 station?

how can they possibly commit to anything more than they currently have done?

For me the connection to HS1 is the most pressing issue with the plans, but they are still evaluating the best way to do it

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think they need to at very least make sure there is a link to HS1, even if it's via the classic lines (NLL). Heathrow though, I can't see the point. Like people have said, regardless of where the Heathrow station was, people would end up changing trains to get to the terminal. Better to just have a station (as proposed) on the main line, where people can then change onto HEX/HC/Crossrail direct to the terminal. I think the original idea of a station at Heathrow was that it would be the main station, with people then getting the HEX or Underground into London.

 

[j0hn0]

I think they need to at very least make sure there is a link to HS1, even if it's via the classic lines (NLL). Heathrow though, I can't see the point. Like people have said, regardless of where the Heathrow station was, people would end up changing trains to get to the terminal. Better to just have a station (as proposed) on the main line, where people can then change onto HEX/HC/Crossrail direct to the terminal. I think the original idea of a station at Heathrow was that it would be the main station, with people then getting the HEX or Underground into London.

totally

I had a thought yesterday that they could maybe use the crossrail tunnel to Stratford for through trains.

Come off HS2 at Old Oak Common and then follow the GW to Paddington, through the crossrail tunnels and then a link at Stratford to HS2

Feasible?

- would have to make crossrail tunnels bern gauge (if not already) and include ERTMS which has probably not been costed in

 

[jopsuk]

Wouldn't be the capacity I'd have thought.

 

[j0hn0]

Wouldn't be the capacity I'd have thought.

yeah, was thinking that myself, I guess it would depend on frequency of crossrail trains which will I assume will be high

 

[Geezertronic]

I was looking at the GreenGauge website yesterday at their proposal for HS2 and their view of the configuration of HS2 around Birmingham looks a bit naive to me. Their proposal has the spur to Birmingham before the Birmingham Interchange station and is only London facing.

At least the proposal in the DfT documentation is for a proper spur after Birmingham Interchange that allows trains from Birmingham to go North as well as South.

 

[LE Greys]

Looking at the overhead imagery for St Pancras, you can see a spur off HS1 facing towards Camden Road. The idea was to allow services to run through Primrose Hill onto the WCML. Since HS2 will go into Euston anyway, I wondered if there was some way to link up with the spur there. International services would run directly off HS2, round the north curve and stop at Stratford, avoiding both Euston Road stations. Quadrupling Camden Road might just be possible (but expensive) otherwise you would need to run above or below the current route.

At Heathrow, I'd simply expand West Drayton or Iver and vastly increase the local car parking. That could also serve as a park & ride for London and an easy way to make connections with Great Western expresses. There's even the potential of extending the Reading-Manchester XCs (perhaps onwards to Gatwick and Brighton as well). Link it to the airport either by a Gatwick-style people mover alongside the M25 or an extension of the ULTra system. I also like the idea of using Crossrail for more than just local services. It would be a great opportunity to link HEX and StanstEx with each other and various places in London (although I'm not sure about connections at Stratford).

Of course, West Drayton International will be very useful when they get around to HS? to Bristol, Cardiff and Plymouth.

 

[Nym]

In reference to connections to HS1, has anyone read that part of the HS1 proposals? two of them use a line following the alignment of the NLL through london joining in at startford. another tunneling past stratford (there isn't space for another tunnel portal at startford int.)

 

[brianthegiant]

Good news for HS2: The coalition government have made a commitment to High Speed 2 in their Coalition agreement. In addition to a commitment not to build a 3rd runway at Heathrow.
http://www.libdems.org.uk/latest_ne...ents&pPK=2697bcdc-7483-47a7-a517-7778979458ff

 

[Geezertronic]

Good news for HS2: The coalition government have made a commitment to High Speed 2 in their Coalition agreement. In addition to a commitment not to build a 3rd runway at Heathrow.
http://www.libdems.org.uk/latest_ne...ents&pPK=2697bcdc-7483-47a7-a517-7778979458ff

That's good, I just hope between them and whoever the replacement for Adonis is (does anyone know?), they choose the correct route.

Having read the Bow Group report on routing HS2 via Heathrow I can see the point of doing so and I guess the cancellation of the 3rd Runway at heathrow kind of confirms that routing. I just don't understand how they would get a high speed through station in Birmingham City Centre as the Bow Group report suggested?

 

[Pumbaa]

New Sec of State is Philip Hammond; MP for Weybridge and Runnymede. Small personal fortune and limited experience on the transport select committee.

 

[Old Timer]

New Sec of State is Philip Hammond; MP for Weybridge and Runnymede. Small personal fortune and limited experience on the transport select committee.

BUT a believer in less centralised Regulation and interference. He has considerable Treasury experience which will be needed and which is why he was appointed.