High Speed 2 - do we really need it?

[YesToHS2]

I know we all want to use the untimely demise of WMSR to suit our agendas, but you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel there :roll:

You should have seen how many times it was posted by anti HS2 campaigns on twitter. I normaly comment but it wasn't worth the effort.

 

[vtiman]

yes i have posted a response on the stop HS2 site asking what the story had to do with hs2 - i am not making myself very popular. ! I suggested that hs2 will release capacity on the classic lines which would make it easier to accomodate open access operators.

so some of the reasons for not having hs2 is that it made this operator go out of business, that electric railways make children seriously ill and that as it might be a potential target we shouldnt build it. You really wont be taken seriously with suggestions like that.

stophs2 also suggested that the planned speed of hs2 is much higher than in europe or the new planned california hsl, which i reminded them voters there have actually approved. new lines in spain and france and california have a planned max service speed 0f 350 kmh / 220 mph. HS2 has been planned to accomodate trains up to 400 kmh / 240 mph but the planned max service speed is .........envelope please.......drum roll ........ - 350kph/220mph

hs1 carried 6.5 million domestic and 9.5 million international passengers in 2010. this is not as high as projected but the trend is on the up. towns in kent have in general benefitted from hs1 with development in ashford in particular being a good example. The towns south of birmingham could have a hs2 service but i dont think the resultant potential spread of development would be welcome there.

My suggestion is to reopen and electrify the east west line and electrify it and then build a connection from hs2. services could then run from oxford / chilterns and milton keynes using javelins extended from kent. Services could also run down the chiltern line onto hs2 via the east west line but obviously then that line would need electrifying also. i will open this as another thread.

 

[MCR247]

The electric lines that make children ill?

I don't see anything wrong with using foresight and making the line and stock capable of doing faster in the future....

 

[Geezertronic]

The electric lines that make children ill?

You couldn't make it up could you.... apparently no one has considered that OHLE has been around for a while and I would have thought pylons carrying much higher currents (or whatever the value is) of electricity would be worse than OHLE?

 

[YesToHS2]

A call to all supporters of HS2

Don't be a silent supporter.

 

[vtiman]

they were referring to the type of pylon and voltage of the type that connects the national grid and then believing that it applied to 25kv catenary. i am aware studies of the former took place but they were not conclusive
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
just been looking at stophs2 and they point out that they should not be classed as nimbys but their critique of every single aspect not only of hs2 but seemingly every high speed line anywhere plus their proximity to the route might suggest that that is the real reason why although i also dislike the "n" word myself.

they routinely suggest that it is the top speed that seems to cause them the most discomfort as it means that the line cannot curve as much to the contours of the countryside. i have asked them if they would therefore be more supportive if the speed were lowered to allay their fear about the environment. i believe the worst case scenario for the emissions of hs2 is that emissions might increase by 0.3% and that is based upon the carbon mix of current power generation not what it will be when the line opens. Since no-one knows that yet hs2 has been truthful and applied the current mix.

the construction of hs2 will obviously cause disruption and effects to the local environment and will be a man made feature that isnt there at the moment. many such projects caused controversy but now we accept them as part of the landscape.

a common criticism of hs2 is that the business case is flawed because the project passenger number will never be met and that people wont travel as much in the future . my counter to this is to ask if people dont stop travelling then how will the transport system cope and what will be the effect on emissions.

if more people travelled on rail and high speed rail within the uk on holidays rather then flying abroad then overall emissions would reduce. hs2 could be a real alternative to the car for certain journeys. the idea that you could travel on hs2 and complete your journey by bus, tram, tube or locally hired electric car or even fuel efficient diesel taxi seems to be a compelling one in my opinion.

 

[grey_man]

Excellent. Now what are the guarantees about service levels and costs for passengers? A first class return on the train tomorrow from Manchester which is usually the only way I could guarantee a seat at short notice would cost me a basic £399 and prices are currently rising at way above inflation. A flight would cost half that. State your guarantees that HS2 will make rail competitve with air travel and then we'll know that this isn't all wishful thinking.

I know the word 'passenger' and 'cost' is something that doesn't usually enter the thinking of the pro campaigners, but give it a go anyway. A guarantee backed up with evidence that HS2 will compete with air and road on price.

 

[Invincibles]

Excellent. Now what are the guarantees about service levels and costs for passengers? A first class return on the train tomorrow from Manchester which is usually the only way I could guarantee a seat at short notice would cost me a basic £399 and prices are currently rising at way above inflation. A flight would cost half that. State your guarantees that HS2 will make rail competitve with air travel and then we'll know that this isn't all wishful thinking.

I know the word 'passenger' and 'cost' is something that doesn't usually enter the thinking of the pro campaigners, but give it a go anyway. A guarantee backed up with evidence that HS2 will compete with air and road on price.

That is easy, if it does not compete then there will be no demand and if there is no demand there is no payback on the investment. No payback and no line.

However, if you want to use sensationalist figures then of course that can be done. But from Manchester to London there will be seats for the standard class fare, just get into the unreserved coach (E?) on the Pendolino close to the time when it boards. Air travel requires being at the airport before take off so doing this for a train is not absurd.

HS2 is a very important first step into the high speed rail world, something which other nations are well ahead of us in. It will be an important part of the economic development of the country in the future, and to stop it over the current price comparison of first class rail fares and walk up plane tickets (do they exist on Manchester - London?) seems a bit short sighted.

Competition is more than price do not forget, the aim is market share and profit not to be the cheapest.

 

[Geezertronic]

Excellent. Now what are the guarantees about service levels and costs for passengers? A first class return on the train tomorrow from Manchester which is usually the only way I could guarantee a seat at short notice would cost me a basic £399 and prices are currently rising at way above inflation. A flight would cost half that. State your guarantees that HS2 will make rail competitve with air travel and then we'll know that this isn't all wishful thinking.

I know the word 'passenger' and 'cost' is something that doesn't usually enter the thinking of the pro campaigners, but give it a go anyway. A guarantee backed up with evidence that HS2 will compete with air and road on price.

Don't go First Class then and book the day before. Even I with my changable schedule can do that. And if you don't want to wait for a specific train, you will pay more. I always book on a specific train into London (from Birmingham) and get an offpeak ticket for the way back, this is cheaper. You obviously want First Class at specific times which is why you will always pay more.

If you don't want to go Standard, be flexible about the time you travel, and book the day before then you cannot complain about the price.

 

[grey_man]

That's not so easy when you are working on business. Those figures are not sensationalist. They are the reality for businesses. Fares are inflexible and expensive. HS2 won't change that. Even standard class is ridiculously expensive and there is no guarantee of a seat. The idea of 'off-peak' keeps being moved as well doesn't it?

You talk like armchair passengers. I am more and more convinced that there is little focus on reform of the problems with existing systems before we spend {insert own figure] billions on this.

 

[tbtc]

You talk like armchair passengers

(insert joke about the comfort of Pendolino seats being equivalent to armchairs)

 

[Invincibles]

That's not so easy when you are working on business. Those figures are not sensationalist. They are the reality for businesses. Fares are inflexible and expensive. HS2 won't change that. Even standard class is ridiculously expensive and there is no guarantee of a seat. The idea of 'off-peak' keeps being moved as well doesn't it?

You talk like armchair passengers. I am more and more convinced that there is little focus on reform of the problems with existing systems before we spend {insert own figure] billions on this.

The unreserved nature of coach E is a fact, Virgin Trains policy and as such there will always be seats in standard from Manchester Piccadilly.

However I will confess I do spend a lot of time in China (which is why my posts are always timed in the early morning) but when I am in England I am based in Manchester and have travelled the route a lot.

If you want to see truly inflexible tickets try getting a train in China, many is a time I have been in Shanghai at 20:00 but been unable to travel that evening. I would love to find a place on the train to stand but they do not allow it.

If we switched to the Chinese system for HS tickets then maybe they would be cheaper (the HS fares in China are much higher £4.10 from Shanghai to Jiaxing instead of £1.30 on the classic) because they dont have the idea of very expensive last minute fares (I would happily pay £20 not to have to mess around with hotels or taxis).

What reforms you advocate I do not know, but I still see no evidence of cheap walk up air fares.

 

[Geezertronic]

That's not so easy when you are working on business.

You seriously cannot do a days notice to book the day before?

Those figures are not sensationalist. They are the reality for businesses.

Not all businesses, only those who choose them

Fares are inflexible and expensive. HS2 won't change that. Even standard class is ridiculously expensive and there is no guarantee of a seat.

Then book one...

You talk like armchair passengers....

You talk like you don't know what you are on about. You do a lot of moaning but not much else...

I do Birmingham International to London Euston 2-3 times a week (sometimes less, sometimes more) and due to the nature of my business I only usually decide the day before that I need to travel.

With a bit of careful ticketing and booking the day before, I can do this journey and back for under £100 (or £104.50 if you include a Zone R12 travelcard - £121.50 if a Anytime Day return to St Albans is included) by travelling there in the peak and back in the offpeak. I always book a reserved seat on the VT services and the only time I have not had a seat is when I missed my booked train and had to catch the one after (and the it was standing to Milton Keynes Central)

So although I have used my journey as an example, it is possible to get cheaper tickets if: a) you book the day before, b) you go Standard Class instead of First Class

 

[jon0844]

Once again, a full price open return is compared to flying, probably with a fixed advance ticket.

If I bought a nice open ticket with BA, I bet it would be more than Virgin - and if I left it late enough I might not get a seat anyway. You can't stand on planes yet, so I'd rather take my chances on a train - knowing the next one might only be 30 minutes from now, and I'm at the front of the queue to get my seat on the unreserved carriage.

Flying is my choice for long journeys, but I'd probably NEVER fly internally as it's all the hassle of arriving early (unless you're going business), going through security, sitting in a departure lounge, walking ages to the gate, then the long walk after, waiting to get bags (if I've paid extra to take them) and then getting from the airport to the town centre. For the tiny amount of time on the flight, my small seat probably doesn't let me use my laptop - and it has to be turned off during takeoff and landing.

On the train, I might be on it 15 minutes before leaving and nicely set up right up to the point I arrive.. so much more civilised. In fact, maybe HS2 will be too quick as it will stop me being able to work (or watch a movie)!!

 

[vtiman]

the fact that the ticket prices can in certain situations be incredibly expensive probably only proves that extra capacity is needed. and you may need to travel on the day but you perhaps dont need to go first class. it is worth noting that a review into the costs of the entire industry is ongoing.

the taxpayer also paid for most of the countries airport and runways and trivial little details like connecting roads and public transport. airlines pay landing fees but their use of the skies is free. they can choose which destinations that they fly to dont have to meet franchise requirements and best of all do not pay any fuel taxes.there is also a very strong airline lobby. the sky really is the limit.
shame about those who have to live near them think about them next time. hs2 will not be nearly as intrusive and wont pollute as much and will reduce car journeys also.

if high speed rail is so expensive why is eurostar carrying 9.5 million passengers and also domestic hs1 is carrying 6.5 million passengers.

brent oil has now reached $100 a barrel again. we need to get off our oil addiction and we need to really focus on how to make travel less polluting. it is interesting however that the typical houses loses 25% of its energy. and housing contributes more to pollution then does transport.

for longer distances the only viable option is planes. new technologies are coming out and trials have begun with biofuels. however for short haul mostly overland duties the high speed train is more efficient and pollutes less.

i think it is about time that we stop thinking of hs2 as being some new unproven concept. the countless other places where they have had hsr and continue to build it cant all be wrong. the places vary from very mountainous densely populated countries like japan to wider open spaces in parts of china france and spain. hs2 isnt some unproven experiment that will damage the lives of your unborn children,it is not a scandalous white elephant vanity project for fat cats that will open the gates of armageddon. sorry just repeating what stophs2 keep saying !

 

[grey_man]

You seriously cannot do a days notice to book the day before?




Not all businesses, only those who choose them




Then book one...




You talk like you don't know what you are on about. You do a lot of moaning but not much else...

I do Birmingham International to London Euston 2-3 times a week (sometimes less, sometimes more) and due to the nature of my business I only usually decide the day before that I need to travel.

With a bit of careful ticketing and booking the day before, I can do this journey and back for under £100 (or £104.50 if you include a Zone R12 travelcard - £121.50 if a Anytime Day return to St Albans is included) by travelling there in the peak and back in the offpeak. I always book a reserved seat on the VT services and the only time I have not had a seat is when I missed my booked train and had to catch the one after (and the it was standing to Milton Keynes Central)

So although I have used my journey as an example, it is possible to get cheaper tickets if: a) you book the day before, b) you go Standard Class instead of First Class

I don't think that a £100 return from Birmingham assuming all the chips fall into place is reasonable in any way. I refer you to a number of points I made a few pages ago about what my extensive experience is. I run a very small business and we can spend the equivalent of somebody's salary on a handful of journeys to London each month. The economic alternative when there have been two or three people isn't the plane, it's the car.

I even gave an example of what happened when I tried to book a hypothetical ticket in advance. Inflexible. Expensive. No seats available on the return journey. If I'd made the trip, I'd also expect it to be overcrowded and grubby.

So I do know what I'm talking about. I have to endure it about 60 or 70 times a year and have to pay through the nose for it. Sometimes it's pretty good, and well priced, but usually it's not. I'm all for HS2, but - as I keep repeating - without a complete fresh look at the structure of the railways it's going to end up being more of the same ****.

So I'm pleased you have positive experiences on your own journeys and have the sort of schedule that means you can get on the exact train you've booked. But use a lilttle imagination. It's not like that for everybody.

 

[j0hn0]

I don't think that a £100 return from Birmingham assuming all the chips fall into place is reasonable in any way. I refer you to a number of points I made a few pages ago about what my extensive experience is. I run a very small business and we can spend the equivalent of somebody's salary on a handful of journeys to London each month. The economic alternative when there have been two or three people isn't the plane, it's the car.

I even gave an example of what happened when I tried to book a hypothetical ticket in advance. Inflexible. Expensive. No seats available on the return journey. If I'd made the trip, I'd also expect it to be overcrowded and grubby.

So I do know what I'm talking about. I have to endure it about 60 or 70 times a year and have to pay through the nose for it. Sometimes it's pretty good, and well priced, but usually it's not. I'm all for HS2, but - as I keep repeating - without a complete fresh look at the structure of the railways it's going to end up being more of the same ****.

So I'm pleased you have positive experiences on your own journeys and have the sort of schedule that means you can get on the exact train you've booked. But use a lilttle imagination. It's not like that for everybody.

Well said

 

[jon0844]

I am not going to say that ticket prices are cheap, but nor is a flight when you turn up and go.

Given Intercity trains have unreserved carriages, I'm not sure how London to Birmingham could ever see you having no seats for the return? As long as you don't board a few minutes before departure, you'll get a seat. And, unlike a plane, if you don't get a seat - you can stand (if you don't wish to wait for the next train). Or, you could take a slower route - another option that might not be available to you by flying.

The fact is, if you need to send staff, or yourself, from Birmingham to London 60-70 times a year, it's going to be expensive FULL STOP. Getting a company car and paying all the necessary tax would cost a lot too, including fuel and parking charges (plus the extra time that driving would almost certainly take more often than not, whether using the M1 or M40, and driving around the M25 and into town as required).

HS2, with more capacity (perhaps more important than speed) can only help bring down costs further. If nothing else, the current route would become cheaper as it tries to compete.

TBH, I can't believe that given rail is probably the most economical option of transport (besides cycling, but I figure you're not going to cycle to London from Birmingham) there is even a debate at all.

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't think that a £100 return from Birmingham assuming all the chips fall into place is reasonable in any way.

To do the same journey by car to the centre of London, I would claim £61 in mileage (244 miles @ 0.25ppm), £30 car parking, and depending on the office location £10 congestion charge. So in comparison, £100 by train is on par with me doing the journey by car plus I have the added bonus of relaxing on the train.

I refer you to a number of points I made a few pages ago about what my extensive experience is. I run a very small business and we can spend the equivalent of somebody's salary on a handful of journeys to London each month. The economic alternative when there have been two or three people isn't the plane, it's the car.

Or maybe not take First Class but settle for Standard Class instead? My cousin who runs a small business often takes the VT services between Euston and either Liverpool & Manchester and he always takes Standard Class to keep his business expenses down. He almost always takes offpeak trains as well but that is more to do with the nature of the times he travels

I even gave an example of what happened when I tried to book a hypothetical ticket in advance. Inflexible. Expensive. No seats available on the return journey. If I'd made the trip, I'd also expect it to be overcrowded and grubby.

I can always book a ticket a day in advance and get a seat. The grubby remark doesn't really wash either (pun intended) since VT have staff who walk the train collecting rubbish and recycling on a regular basis

So I do know what I'm talking about. I have to endure it about 60 or 70 times a year and have to pay through the nose for it. Sometimes it's pretty good, and well priced, but usually it's not. I'm all for HS2, but - as I keep repeating - without a complete fresh look at the structure of the railways it's going to end up being more of the same ****.

So I'm pleased you have positive experiences on your own journeys and have the sort of schedule that means you can get on the exact train you've booked. But use a lilttle imagination. It's not like that for everybody.

I do use imagination, that is why I get the tickets I do. If I stuck to my guns and insisted I turn up and go then I would pay through the nose. If I insisted on First Class, same applies. But I get the tickets that are the cheapest I can get so my expenses bill is lower. Flexibility is the key

I am not going to say that ticket prices are cheap, but nor is a flight when you turn up and go.

Given Intercity trains have unreserved carriages, I'm not sure how London to Birmingham could ever see you having no seats for the return? As long as you don't board a few minutes before departure, you'll get a seat. And, unlike a plane, if you don't get a seat - you can stand (if you don't wish to wait for the next train). Or, you could take a slower route - another option that might not be available to you by flying.

It is me that travels to/from Birmingham, I believe Grey_Man does the same from Manchester

 

[YesToHS2]

Yes To High Speed 2, HS2. for the economic and green future of the UK

 

[grey_man]

Geezertronic

You seem to not be listening to what I'm saying. I'm not daft. I don't rock up at stations buying First Class tickets. It's my own business so I always book standard class in advance. I said First Class was sometimes the only way of booking a seat, and it is. What I do instead is pay silly fares - more often than I'd like to stand for two hours in standard.

I'd also love to be able to claim back the mileage or the rail fare, but it's not like that. Whatever I pay out comes directly out of my own pocket. That is why we do not use it when, say, three people are travelling together. As I pointed out before, one cheaper alternative then on some journeys would be to hire a stretch limousine for the day. That can't be right.

We try to book on specific trains to keep costs down. If we miss a train for any reason - say when a meeting changes or overruns - usually we have to pay for another ticket.

None of this is opinion. It's fact for small businesses like mine. I have seriously considered turning down ostensibly profitable contracts in the South East because of the sheer cost of servicing them for one reason only - the cost of travel. Far from underpinning the economic prosperity of this country, the railways are beginning to choke it.

Are you even getting any of this? I'll say again. I'm not arguing against HS2. I'm arguing against us having yet another ludicrously expensive, poorly performing piece of infrastructure. I've seen the for and against arguments and the pro case doesn't begin to address any of these sorts of concerns. Passengers and fares are hardly mentioned in any of the stuff I've read from lobbyists like Greengauge and YesToHS2.

It's all irrelevant anyway because it will be going ahead anyway.

 

[jon0844]

Why would HS2 be poor performing?

The WCML is crumbling under the strain caused by 'too many' people clearly being quite happy to take the train (perhaps because they don't like the M1 and sitting in long jams) so there needs to be more capacity - which HS2 brings.

And, if you ever did decide to drive - perhaps with a very fuel efficient car that could avoid the congestion charge (which will almost certainly have increased significantly by the time HS2 opens) then wouldn't you be even more happy to see more people switching from road to rail? Surely all of the increase in rail usage is freeing capacity on the roads too?

Seems like a win win situation, with you able to choose the mode of transport that's best for your needs at that time.

 

[grey_man]

I'm not against any of that. What concerns me is that we have a long term plan for HS2 when the whole transport infrastructure of the UK now is not only less than ideal in a number of ways but is often not meeting the needs of passengers and businesses. One example is how the Government and Virgin are ****ing about introducing badly needed capacity on the WCML while they argue about franchises. Those sort of structural and cultural issues need to be sorted. Introducing HS2 without a more intelligent and passenger focussed approach is not going to address any of those things.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not against any of that. What concerns me is that we have a long term plan for HS2 when the whole transport infrastructure of the UK now is not only less than ideal in a number of ways but is often not meeting the needs of passengers and businesses. One example is how the Government and Virgin are ****ing about introducing badly needed capacity on the WCML while they argue about franchises. Those sort of structural and cultural issues need to be sorted. Introducing HS2 without a more intelligent and passenger focussed approach is not going to address any of those things.

Hopefully, many of the faults of the current rail franchise structure will be addressed in the restructuring currently being undertaken by the DfT leading up to “Rail Franchising Version 3.0” (Personally, I’m not holding my breath for anything radical): It really is madness that there is such a dispute over pressing the new Pendolino into service on the West Coast owing to franchise specifications and agreements.

The high price of train tickets during peak times and on certain routes is demand regulation for a railway network that is already operating at close to maximum capacity in terms of service frequency and (in some cases) train length: It’s a way to “price people off” the most popular trains in an attempt to ensure that those who must travel at those times get a seat: Lowering the ticket price on these trains would only serve to reduce the chance of passengers who must travel at that time getting a seat and so it can be seen that the only way to allow a restructuring of the time-sensitive aspect of the fare structure is by increasing capacity on the most over-crowded routes, which is why HS2 is needed.

 

[Greenback]

The arguments presented about high prices and the failure to get a seat at times indicates that extra capacity is needed, and that is a major argument in favour of HS2.

The fact that someone complains about having to pay a lot of money but still finds the traisn full suggests that the fares are not, in fact, putting people off travelling by rail.

Of course, if there are large numbers of people on these trains using dirt cheap book ahead Advance tickets and taking up seats to the detriment of people paying higher fares, then that would suggest that the pricing model is seriously flawed!

 

[Geezertronic]

Geezertronic

You seem to not be listening to what I'm saying. I'm not daft. I don't rock up at stations buying First Class tickets. It's my own business so I always book standard class in advance. I said First Class was sometimes the only way of booking a seat, and it is. What I do instead is pay silly fares - more often than I'd like to stand for two hours in standard.

I'd also love to be able to claim back the mileage or the rail fare, but it's not like that. Whatever I pay out comes directly out of my own pocket. That is why we do not use it when, say, three people are travelling together. As I pointed out before, one cheaper alternative then on some journeys would be to hire a stretch limousine for the day. That can't be right.

We try to book on specific trains to keep costs down. If we miss a train for any reason - say when a meeting changes or overruns - usually we have to pay for another ticket.

None of this is opinion. It's fact for small businesses like mine. I have seriously considered turning down ostensibly profitable contracts in the South East because of the sheer cost of servicing them for one reason only - the cost of travel. Far from underpinning the economic prosperity of this country, the railways are beginning to choke it.

Are you even getting any of this? I'll say again. I'm not arguing against HS2. I'm arguing against us having yet another ludicrously expensive, poorly performing piece of infrastructure. I've seen the for and against arguments and the pro case doesn't begin to address any of these sorts of concerns. Passengers and fares are hardly mentioned in any of the stuff I've read from lobbyists like Greengauge and YesToHS2.

It's all irrelevant anyway because it will be going ahead anyway.

I get it ok... so there is no need for the patronising tone. All I will say is that from what you are telling us, the Manchester-London services you use must be considerably more busier and heavily loaded than the Birmingham-London services I use if you cannot book a Standard Class ticket the day before and get a reserved seat. I may not always get the seat I want (Window seat in Coach A - Quiet coach) but I always get a seat reserved 100% of the time. The vast majority of the time there are no free seats meaning the Train Manager declassifies Coach G allowing another 40ish Standard Class ticket holders to sit down

Oh and I am self employed, pay out of my own pocket, and claim it back through my limited company (and send the bill to the company I am contracted to).

What I don't think you get is that if things are bad as you seem to think they are, people would avoid the train and take alternative methods of transport rendering HS2 and capacity upgrades on existing lines obsolete and useless. There is nothing anywhere to suggest HS2 will be poorly performing, the WCML South has its issues but doesn't perform poorly in the main? I suggest you address your concerns with the relevant parties if you are that bothered...

 

[jon0844]

That's a good point you make. If you're needing to go to/from London for work, I presume that the client would be invoiced (or the cost factored into the job) as appropriate, just as the congestion charge has to be factored in for businesses going into central London.

If the cost of getting to London from Manchester (sorry I said Birmingham before) makes a job not viable, then maybe you should be nearer to London? Now we're in the EU, any British business can do business with any other EU member - but the same problem would exist if you suddenly decided to do work for a Polish company and needed to travel there frequently. Again, it would have to be factored in.

HS2 will increase capacity AND increase speed, but the WCML, MML and ECML will continue to run - so it can't be anything but a good thing. And as time goes on and fuel costs rise even more (I paid £1.32 a litre this week to fill up my car), the cost comparison with the car will widen even more.

 

[grey_man]

I'm sorry if I sounded patronising.

It's not always possible to factor the costs of travel to clients without jeopardising the work. I actually already work for companies in Germany, Sweden and Turkey and they expect to pay these costs, so no problem. UK companies are more reluctant for domestic travel, especially when they see the numbers we are talking about. In many cases we judge that it may cost us business to charge them for standard meetings. It's a balancing act.

I also get the point about capacity and pricing. Again it's a balancing act when it comes to decsisions about travel and we end up like most businesses taking the least worst option rather than the best. The problem is that there is spare capacity on the WCML but the ongoing wrangling over using it is driving passengers up the wall. This is exactly the kind of buggering about that makes so many people pessimistic about HS2.

 

[YesToHS2]

Okay, lets look at some figures, just for arguments sake lets looks at a worst case scenario and HS2 cost 20% more than WCML services (The real world like for like difference of a HS1 ticket from London to Folkstone) . That would put an advance single up from £25 to £30 and a peak time ticket booked the day before up from £110/130 to £132/£156. Now what will happen if you were willing to travel slower is that WCML services in order to compete would have to reduce prices as I think it's fair to say tourists will pay the £5 to go the 'prestigious' HS2 service and businesses will find the extra £30 odd pound to get to London quicker and be guaranteed a seat. And as I said this the worst case scenario and there will be choice, choice which breeds competition.

I'm not sure how much some people are expecting HS2 service to be when they say only rich businessmen will be able to travel on HS2? I'm sure even the poorest of tourist could find an extra £5 if they booked in advance and wanted to travel on HS2 and get to London half an hour earlier.

But then again you can travel to Paris from London at high speed next day for £124 so the figures I derived are almost irrelevant. A ticket from London to Paris costing the same as on from Warrington to London. which means the fact that Eurostar travels at high speed doesn't even factor into the cost.

I like the way some critics suggest that HS2 will cost a fortune but have made no efforts themselves to come up with a suggested price for a ticket. Worst case or otherwise.

 

[Greenback]

I like the way some critics suggest that HS2 will cost a fortune but have made no efforts themselves to come up with a suggested price for a ticket. Worst case or otherwise.

How can anyone come up with a suggested ticket price for something that hasn't even been built yet? Logic suggests that the prices will not be cheaper than they are now, but that's about as far as we can go!

Goin gby the trands of the last fifteen years or so, the best guess I can make is that the cost of rail travel will rise by more than inflation (however you want to measure that!) and that there will be some sor tof premium to use the new line because of its faster journeys.

Of course, there will probably a myriad of fares on offer, with a heap of restrictions, all of which will be difficult to find out about, cause abject confusion and create adverse headlines when people fall foul of them and are 'fined' as a result. Routeings will be a nightmare, as travellers will be issued with 'Any Permitted' tickets which aren;t valid and 'Not HS2' tickets which might be,d epending on where you are going to and from.