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High Speed 2 - do we really need it?

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Mainliner

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One of the main reasons that railways offer such a poor alternative to road travel is because the feeder routes are now either cycle tracks or served with such infrequent and poorly connected services that there are very few journeys available to the passenger other than arterial axial spokes from London.

"railways offer such a poor alternative to road travel" - you are joking, arent you?

I drove from Newcastle-London and return weekly for a 6-month period several years ago (as I needed my car at the destination at that time), and it was horrendous. My weekly journey on the ECML nowadays is infinitely superior by every measure, including cost, time and by no means least, stress levels!
 
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Chris125

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I think its generally accepted that closing or rationalising quieter lines had a damaging effect on the routes that connected them - but if you want to reverse this you need to increase capacity on those secondary routes first to cope and to increase paths for through trains - through electrification, re-doubling/quadruping etc.

This however has a knock-on effect - already congested mainlines need even greater capacity.

Its not either/or when it comes to HS2 or regional services - by relieving the WCML, MML and ECML and reducing journey times between major cities, HS2 will improve the business case for upgrading or rebuilding local and secondary lines.

Chris
 

TGV

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I think people are forgetting that HS2 isn't the only rail improvement going ahead. You have the electrification of the Manchester Liverpool line, if you want to talk further south you have the extensive works being carried out on the Great Western line, Crossrail is about to begin (creating a mere 10% capacity, essential nether the less) . And the government has ring fenced the budgets for many metro services to be upgraded.

HS2 rather than being expensive should give the operators of the WCML the kick up the arse they need in order to bring down prices. So even IF you can't afford to travel in HS2 a big IF you will have access much cheaper tickets on WCML services. I'm sorry £60 London return booked 2 months in advance isn't cheap.

Please, if you want to talk about alternatives read The case for HS2 or go to the Dft's website for all the case documents.

I like your campaign. What is your motivation? Do you work in the industry?

I'm all for HS2 and like you, I've heard just about every argument for and against it. But none of the against arguments have changed my mind. Even if the route went through my neighbourhood, I'd still vote for it.
 

YorkshireBear

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I think its generally accepted that closing or rationalising quieter lines had a damaging effect on the routes that connected them - but if you want to reverse this you need to increase capacity on those secondary routes first to cope and to increase paths for through trains - through electrification, re-doubling/quadruping etc.

This however has a knock-on effect - already congested mainlines need even greater capacity.

Its not either/or when it comes to HS2 or regional services - by relieving the WCML, MML and ECML and reducing journey times between major cities, HS2 will improve the business case for upgrading or rebuilding local and secondary lines.

Chris

excellent point, the lines that link into HS2 will get bonus's from it especially if they can intergrate timetables
 

YesToHS2

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I like your campaign. What is your motivation? Do you work in the industry?

Initially I was just because I'm a northerner who enjoys the odd trip to London but the more I read from critics the more I saw a need for organised support backed up with well researched documents.

I was accused via e-mail by a very rude and abrupt critic of working for the rail industry and it was claimed that I set to gain some how if HS2 went ahead. He couldn't of been further from the truth and got a very strongly worded e-mail back, needless to say he didn't reply.

I have simply found myself involved in supporting HS2 and am now committed to making sure the public know the truth about the proposals.
 

TGV

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Initially I was just because I'm a northerner who enjoys the odd trip to London but the more I read from critics the more I saw a need for organised support backed up with well researched documents.

I was accused via e-mail by a very rude and abrupt critic of working for the rail industry and it was claimed that I set to gain some how if HS2 went ahead. He couldn't of been further from the truth and got a very strongly worded e-mail back, needless to say he didn't reply.

I have simply found myself involved in supporting HS2 and am now committed to making sure the public know the truth about the proposals.

Nice one. Well best of luck to you. I do work in the industry, and want it to happen to provide the link this country deserves to be proud of and to keep people like me with jobs! I'm a proud Brit and a proud railwayman - so for those reasons I'm on board.
 

YesToHS2

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My only point of criticism... your pic shows a 373 on the old 3rd rail network! ;)

Looks good though ;). It's hard to find HS1 images that aren't protected by copyright. Don't want annoy any budding photographers, I'm already getting enough stick lol.
 

starrymarkb

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if you want to talk further south you have the extensive works being carried out on the Great Western line,

which at the moment is still up in the air, it depends on what decision is taken with regard to IEP and Thameslink*. Given that FGW are working out how much longer they can make HSTs last incase the wiring is shelved then the odds are still 50/50.

The scheme is partly based on 319s from Thameslink replaced by new build
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looks good though ;). It's hard to find HS1 images that aren't protected by copyright. Don't want annoy any budding photographers, I'm already getting enough stick lol.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eurostar_on_CTRL.jpg

Is Creative Commons, free to use as long as you credit the author
 

YesToHS2

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which at the moment is still up in the air, it depends on what decision is taken with regard to IEP and Thameslink*. Given that FGW are working out how much longer they can make HSTs last incase the wiring is shelved then the odds are still 50/50.

The scheme is partly based on 319s from Thameslink replaced by new build

I was talking to a rail crash investigator over the weekend he seems to think that there is masses of work going on on the great western rail line.

Would certainly be a shame to see the end of HSTs, they are amazing vehicles considering the budget given to develop them. I think I've only ever been on a HST once.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks for pic. Is it just me or is that more graceful and attractive than any motorway?
 

starrymarkb

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Thanks for pic. Is it just me or is that more graceful and attractive than any motorway?

Viaduct de Millau?

millau_viaduct.jpg


Say what you like, it is an engineering marvel ;)
 

route:oxford

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If HS2 isn't built...

Will FL1 need to be built instead - on essentially the same path in order to get goods and freight off the primary passenger routes?
 

route:oxford

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You had to mention that ;). It's on my 'to visit' list.

You'll need to photoshop some double-decker container freight trains "thundering" through rural Buckinghamshire.

Not that I'm saying it's such a bad idea! It could take so many long-distance lorries off the road if such trains could be run the length of the country between Southampton, London, Birmingham & Scotland
 

Squaddie

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I have simply found myself involved in supporting HS2 and am now committed to making sure the public know the truth about the proposals.
Claiming that your own opinions are "truth" is a very dangerous stance to take. There are arguments both for and against the contruction of a high-speed line, and both points of view are valid.

I am in favour of railways in general and high-speed lines in particular, and if money were no object then I would whole-heartedly support the project. But money is an issue and I don't think we should be spending so much of it on a single rail line while the rest of the network is falling apart. I would prefer to see train travel in the UK become a comfortable, enjoyable experience the way it is in many other European countries rather than the utter hell it has become.
 

bluenoxid

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I do worry that whilst HS2 is a good project, it could fall on an important point, which is the increase in management of our Motorway network and the electrification of our road fleet.

Many arterial routes around London are missed by the rail network but looking at the rail network as the only solution to our transport needs really does miss the point. Integration is the main thing with buses, cars, bikes, walking, coaches, trains, planes, trams, etc providing the complete picture.
 

Metroland

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I tend to think that several other posters here that increased investment in local lines and missing links, provided they're well thought-out, properly funded and properly marketed. Would it cost £20,000 mil to [say] reopen the Somerset and Dorset, the Woodhead, the eastern Callander and Oban and finally build a Great Glen Railway? What about actual plans, like SELRAP or the Ripon line? I like the idea of HS2, it's just a question of whether it's really the best thing to do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do keep reading in various places 'let's improve the current network' as one objection to HS2. Well most people support improving the current network and that is being done. The trouble is most of the schemes you have mentioned above are vanity schemes at the back end of beyond, where there no real demand. The Ripon line is marginal, the Woodhead line has a case once capacity runs out on the current transpennine lines. The S&DJR has a cat in hells chance, even the comparable road network is rubbish. As for the highlands, it's very marginal whether we keep the current lines open.

Okay, what could you do with the ECML, WCML, MML?

Speed wise:

On the ECML there is a case to raise some speeds to 140mph in limited areas, which wouldn't actually save all that much time, and indeed reduce capacity.

The WCML is going pretty much as fast as it's likely to do with titling trains and it's current Victorian alignment.

The MML could be marginally improved in some areas, like the GWML. But again, with the mixed traffic nature of all these lines you are trading speed off for marginal capacity.

Capacity:

Can be improved, and is being improved by grade separation which is a limiting factor. For example Hitchin flyover, Reading and Doncaster. No doubt further grade separation will go in at Didcot and other areas. Again the chief limiting factor is the mix of traffic.

Other improvements:

MML and indeed the GWML could be electrified, which will help. The GWML and MML are currently being resignalled in some areas to improve reliability and increase capacity, the ECML will get ERTMS in the 2020s.

Why build a new HSR?

The chief reason to build it, and indeed this is pointed out in the DFTs latest business plan, is to shrink the N-S divide http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/publications/business/plan2011-15/ and provide alternatives to the car and plane. We have a huge social and economic imbalance in this country, caused by de-industrialisation of the north. Prosperity is directly related to the time it takes to ride a train from London.

No other form of transport is going to realistically shrink this, especially south of Newcastle. You can build more motorways, but those would take up even more land and increase CO2. The problem is however, that traffic has to go somewhere, and it's better reaching city centres by rail rather than clogging them up with new road demand. Air can't even compete with the classic network south of Leeds. But BAA actually support HSR, because it's a far better way to access the airports than any other method.

Next, railways work best (and roads for that matter) when you have similar speeds and stopping patterns. HS2 gets the fast traffic on a separate line, leaving more space for commuters and freight. So, again it's not true that it's improving one thing at the expense of another.

I do sympathise with people that find they have a railway on their doorstep, but careful engineering and routing will ensure any disturbance is kept to a minimum. Certainly you can hide a lot of it away in tunnels and behind barriers, and it would take up less land and create less noise than a road. Nobody really notices HS1 in Kent.

In the end though, you could say this about anything: People don't want nuclear power plants, windfarms, airports, roads, large industrial areas on their doorstep either. But if you want to keep your modern mobility and standards of living, it is a compromise.

Finally on costs, it's about the same as free pensioner bus travel. It's 1/600th of the national expenditure for 15-20 years while it's being built, which will have external benefits once it's complete, greater ones that branch line repenings, improving bus services, and most road improvements.
 
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tbtc

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railways work best (and roads for that matter) when you have similar speeds and stopping patterns

Exactly.

We can have Pacers, irregular freight trains,existing 100mph services and "High Speed" 140mph+ services...

...BUT not on the same route. Either we get rid of the slowest trains (such as the idea of shunting freight onto a dedicated line), slow down the fastest trains (hence "inter city" services having to stop at places like Chester le Street) or build dedicated high speed lines.

You can't run at 140mph on the ECML when you'll catch up the slow service in front very shortly. Either we accept the need for HS2 (...and HS3, HS4 in future) or we slow everything down to maximise capacity (in the way that motorways improve traffic capacity on 50mph "managed" sections) - maybe abandon everything over 100mph to fit in more services?
 

YesToHS2

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Claiming that your own opinions are "truth" is a very dangerous stance to take. There are arguments both for and against the contruction of a high-speed line, and both points of view are valid.

All facts and figures used are fully researched and I have been very careful to source accurate figures. I was pre warned about anti HS2 lobbyists.

HS2 is a project spanning over a decade. While it is true to say we will never see the economic 'glory' days again, the economy will pick up. It will also be the case that 10,000 skilled workers will be hired during construction. Construction workers always temporarily boost the economies of the places they work. Once HS2 is built it can begin to pay for itself with increased worker efficiency, and franchising. The £2.1bn paid for HS1 is a lot when you consider it is only on the basis of a 30 year lease.

Capital investment programs worked for China so the construction program alone could boost the economy, that is if the economy doesn't pick up on it's own in next 5 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does the HS2 action alliance have no shame 'Kids say NO to HS2'
 

rb311

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:lol:

Be environmentally friendly - dig up cycle tracks :roll:

What a clever boy...

oh dear tbtc, do I need to explain my point to you again...?

Probably, given your comment here and elsewhere too.

Recyling cycle tracks that were once railways back to railways. The significant damage to the environment was done years ago.

I agree with someone who mentioned the re-establishment of the Great Central Railway. This project, using existing trackbeds which were designed to take faster and larger trains, is ideal for re-establishment. It could be used for putting lorries onto trains to take volume off the M1/M40 corridor. Now that is worth it.

The problem with small improvements in lots of places to enhance, or at the very least restore previous capacity, is that they don't make grand headlines and positive stories for the rail industry.

Private companies should be encouraged to invest in restoring capacity through improved planning procedures and longer franchises so that the burden of paying for rail improvement schemes is borne by investors who then reap a return. But this doesn't make headline grabbing news.

As to causing disruption to existing rail links, forgive me, but that happens all the time anyway. So no change there.
 

Greenback

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There are legitimate concerns about HS2 and I think it is unwise to dismiss all of those against it as NIMBY's or lobbyists.

I understand and respect the arguments put forward by Metroland and tbtc about capacity. They make a strong case for HS2. It seems logical to build it in stages, starting with London to Birmingham, and capacity is going to be a problem in the future.

What we need to do, however, is to ensure that the line does not become a sort of white elephant, charging very high premium fares so that only the richest can use it. We also need to ensure that investment continues in other regions as well. Most importantly in my view, we need to ensure that the trains that are built for HS2 are comfortable and roomy!
 

Grumpy

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"Prosperity is directly related to the time it takes to ride a train from London"

I would say that is the most stupid statement I have ever read . Then why is Edinburgh more prosperous than, say, Rochdale? Is Tower Hamlets more prosperous than Wilmslow?
If London's so prosperous why are we having to pay taxes so that billions can be paid out in Housing benefit to Londoners. Similarly why does London's transport need so much more central government subsidy than other English conurbations-if they're so prosperous why cant they pay for it themselves.
 

Metroland

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I would say that is the most stupid statement I have ever read . Then why is Edinburgh more prosperous than, say, Rochdale? Is Tower Hamlets more prosperous than Wilmslow?
If London's so prosperous why are we having to pay taxes so that billions can be paid out in Housing benefit to Londoners. Similarly why does London's transport need so much more central government subsidy than other English conurbations-if they're so prosperous why cant they pay for it themselves.

Grumpy by name, Grumpy by nature eh? Before you say people make stupid statements, please go and do your research.

Point 1: Statement about train ride from London is a generalisation, there are other factors but it generally holds true.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7724573.stm

Professor Dorling said a town or city's train time to London now had a direct impact on its economic success, partly due to the increasing importance of London's financial sector.

Point 2: Most tax money in the UK is spent in the North, Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland. London and the SE overwhelmingly subsidises the rest of the country, this is due to access to labour markets and geography.

Point 3: Crossrail is being partly paid for by Londoners, but northern, Welsh and Scottish TOCS are more heavily subsidised as a rule.
 

LE Greys

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I do keep reading in various places 'let's improve the current network' as one objection to HS2. Well most people support improving the current network and that is being done. The trouble is most of the schemes you have mentioned above are vanity schemes at the back end of beyond, where there no real demand. The Ripon line is marginal, the Woodhead line has a case once capacity runs out on the current transpennine lines. The S&DJR has a cat in hells chance, even the comparable road network is rubbish. As for the highlands, it's very marginal whether we keep the current lines open.

Okay, what could you do with the ECML, WCML, MML?

Speed wise:

On the ECML there is a case to raise some speeds to 140mph in limited areas, which wouldn't actually save all that much time, and indeed reduce capacity.

The WCML is going pretty much as fast as it's likely to do with titling trains and it's current Victorian alignment.

The MML could be marginally improved in some areas, like the GWML. But again, with the mixed traffic nature of all these lines you are trading speed off for marginal capacity.

Capacity:

Can be improved, and is being improved by grade separation which is a limiting factor. For example Hitchin flyover, Reading and Doncaster. No doubt further grade separation will go in at Didcot and other areas. Again the chief limiting factor is the mix of traffic.

Other improvements:

MML and indeed the GWML could be electrified, which will help. The GWML and MML are currently being resignalled in some areas to improve reliability and increase capacity, the ECML will get ERTMS in the 2020s.

Why build a new HSR?

The chief reason to build it, and indeed this is pointed out in the DFTs latest business plan, is to shrink the N-S divide http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/publications/business/plan2011-15/ and provide alternatives to the car and plane. We have a huge social and economic imbalance in this country, caused by de-industrialisation of the north. Prosperity is directly related to the time it takes to ride a train from London.

No other form of transport is going to realistically shrink this, especially south of Newcastle. You can build more motorways, but those would take up even more land and increase CO2. The problem is however, that traffic has to go somewhere, and it's better reaching city centres by rail rather than clogging them up with new road demand. Air can't even compete with the classic network south of Leeds. But BAA actually support HSR, because it's a far better way to access the airports than any other method.

Next, railways work best (and roads for that matter) when you have similar speeds and stopping patterns. HS2 gets the fast traffic on a separate line, leaving more space for commuters and freight. So, again it's not true that it's improving one thing at the expense of another.

I do sympathise with people that find they have a railway on their doorstep, but careful engineering and routing will ensure any disturbance is kept to a minimum. Certainly you can hide a lot of it away in tunnels and behind barriers, and it would take up less land and create less noise than a road. Nobody really notices HS1 in Kent.

In the end though, you could say this about anything: People don't want nuclear power plants, windfarms, airports, roads, large industrial areas on their doorstep either. But if you want to keep your modern mobility and standards of living, it is a compromise.

Finally on costs, it's about the same as free pensioner bus travel. It's 1/600th of the national expenditure for 15-20 years while it's being built, which will have external benefits once it's complete, greater ones that branch line repenings, improving bus services, and most road improvements.

I actually agree with most of this, it's just a question of priorities. If the MML gets electrified, I'd like to see this integrated with general electrification in South Yorkshire, and perhaps West Yorkshire (which should have been done in the 1980s/90s) after this. Possibilities would also include tilt on the Penzance route, which would be expensive, but might cut times to four hours rather than five.

The reason I often go on about projects in remote areas is that I'm a bit concerned about "railway deserts", usually where there used to be a line but not any more. North West Devon, North Cornwall, parts of Norfolk and the Borders (addressed by the Waverley Route, which I forgot about). There is also the ridiculous ammont of time it takes to get from Fort William to Inverness, which is in a major tourist area of course. The Woodhead and Peak Rail (which I also forgot) are there mostly to relieve pinch points, but the speeded-up journey times by rebuilding through routes would be useful as well.

As for high-speed rail, I agree with the principle, but not quite the way it will be implemented. I tend to prefer the German model, where the new sections are not planned as a new network (the Japanese model) or as a mostly-separate network (the French model). In Germany, a high-speed line is an addition to the existing network, and fully integrated with it. Basically, like the Selby Diversion, just faster and longer. ICEs aren't given such a special status as TGVs, they're just intercity trains with turn-up-and-go fares. We seem to be doing things the French way, which is good, but not as good. Still, I certainly intend to use the line when it opens. It's good that we're getting something.
 

Chris125

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I As for high-speed rail, I agree with the principle, but not quite the way it will be implemented. I tend to prefer the German model, where the new sections are not planned as a new network (the Japanese model) or as a mostly-separate network (the French model). In Germany, a high-speed line is an addition to the existing network, and fully integrated with it.

The problem with that is you dont create much extra capacity while potentially increasing bottlenecks, preventing the use of UIC-size rolling stock and subjecting it to the delays of the rest of the network.

While the german model might work well in the future north of the border where its harder to justify a fully seperate line, the current HS2 plans are less about journey times and much more about capacity - to relieve the WCML it needs to be kept seperate in the congested London area and as far north as capacity relief is needed - beyond Manchester and ideally east of Leeds.

Chris
 
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Grumpy

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Metroland
"Grumpy by nature eh? "
Too right

I am not disputing that, as a generality, people in London are better paid than elsewhere. There are varying reasons for this, mostly historical and relating to the location of the monarch and legislature.

But having a direct and quick railway line into central London does not in itself create prosperity. Ken Livingstone was always banging on about the poor and unemployed in London. Indeed when politicians have tried to justify squandering billions on such as the Dome and Olympics, they always seem to include providing work for the unemployed in East London.

So I therefore dispute the argument that building a high speed North/South route will magically create prosperity in the North. Foreign tourists who currently holiday in London aren't suddenly going to change their minds and holiday in Rochdale. Coutts Bank isn't going to relocate to Rotherham. An unemployed Bangladeshi in Yorkshire isn't going to spend several £thou on a season ticket to London in the hope of a job when his cousins who already live there are unemployed. And should we really be investing so that people can commute 150-200 miles in an age of environmentalism?

However if someone can explain to this simpleton how building a new railway will create long term sustainable prosperity in the north (as opposed to jobs for foreign train manufacturers-so beloved of our London administrators-and foreign civil engineering contractors-similarly favoured-and who like to bring their own workers), I am open to being persuaded otherwise. I accept that the London-based banks and consultants will do nicely out of it.

The prosperity justification is nearly as bad as the so-called growth/capacity one.
 

j0hn0

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HS1 - £2.1bn - on time and on budget
WCML "Upgrade" - £10.5bn, masses of disruption, late delivery, poor quality upgrades in some cases, descoping of new signalling and basically just a new layout for Rugby, Milton Keynes and Nuneaton.

These are the only facts you need. Point proven, major upgrades are FAR TOO EXPENSIVE AND DISRUPTIVE.

I honestly cannot believe some people are still championing classic upgrades INSTEAD of a high speed line.
 
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HS1 - £2.1bn - on time and on budget
WCML "Upgrade" - £10.5bn, masses of disruption, late delivery, poor quality upgrades in some cases, descoping of new signalling and basically just a new layout for Rugby, Milton Keynes and Nuneaton.

Would be helpful if there were any facts:roll: HS1 cost £5.9 billion, the WCRM was £8.6bn. Most of the cost of the WCRM was track & signalling renewal which had to be done anyway. Far more work was done than you suggested - complete rebuild of the Eustons approaches, resignalling of the Crewe - Manchester line and upgrade to 110mph running. 4-tracking Rugby TVJ - Brinklow and then Tamworth - Armitage which involved a brand new twin track alighnment for 12 miles and saw complete replacement of the original track, signals, OLE & bridges for £320 million. Going by that rate, London Birmingham would cost £3.2bn (obviously it wouldn't because of the heavily built up areas).
 
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