High-capacity mode seating

[emoaconr]

Living in ATW land, most of their 80's stock has been refurbished to remove the former 2+3 seating arrangement in their Pacers and Sprinters. Having not had much experience of the stock before W&B's refurbishment scheme, I often sit and wonder how the hell does a 3+2 arrangement actually fit? Where DOES the space come from?

In these high-capacity modes, are the walkways significantly narrower, i.e. less than trolley width sized?

I suppose the bus-style bench seating particulary in the Pacers and 150/3's does make the actual "bum room" much narrower and removes gaps between seats. I don't suppose any modern trains are being produced with 3+2?

Just wanted to know!

 

[asylumxl]

Desiros 450/5s have 3+2 seating, and yes, the walkway is very narrow.

As are the Electrostar 377/5s.

 

[MCR247]

Desiros 450/5s have 3+2 seating, and yes, the walkway is very narrow.

As are the Electrostar 377/5s.

As well as all 450s and all 377s apart from /3s and some /1s (cant remember off the top of my head)

 

[LondonLarry]

As well as all 450s and all 377s apart from /3s and some /1s (cant remember off the top of my head)

And 321s, some 350s...

 

[whoshotjimmi]

In Leeds, with the advent of electrification, the class 308's and 321's both had 3+2 seating, as does the class 333. In all these trains, the space inside was/is enormous - especially so in the 333. The 308's had very comfy seats that one could relax back into - bouncy, but comfy. They even had armrests. I have been on unrefurbished 150's with 3+2. There is/was not as much room inside as on the aforementioned EMU's, but I don't recall space for the seating being an issue.

 

[Failed Unit]

On the pacers, if you could not get 3 large people on the bench seat together without someone hanging off. But the Sprinters were / are OK. I have never been on a Merseyrail pacer but I hear it is the worse in the world, the ex-NW still have the 2+3 benches but most of Northerns fleet are now 2+2

 

[Mojo]

I've had trolleys on pre-refurb 150s (when operating with Wales/West) and also 165s & 350/2s all of which contain 3+2 seating, with no problems.

London Midland's 150s still have 3+2 seating so you could look for yourself as to how it fits in.

 

[rww100]

On the pacers, if you could not get 3 large people on the bench seat together without someone hanging off. But the Sprinters were / are OK. I have never been on a Merseyrail pacer but I hear it is the worse in the world, the ex-NW still have the 2+3 benches but most of Northerns fleet are now 2+2

Merseyrail have never had pacers. Some of Northern's ex-Northern Spirit 142s have 3+2 individual seats, and what makes it worse are that the seats are the type that are angled backwards.

 

[MCR247]

Merseyrail have never had pacers. Some of Northern's ex-Northern Spirit 142s have 3+2 individual seats, and what makes it worse are that the seats are the type that are angled backwards.

I think he meant the Merseyside PTE ones

 

[rww100]

I think he meant the Merseyside PTE ones

Didn't think of that

I believe that they've all been repainted into Northern colours now, but havn't really been keeing an eye out. Does anyone know if this is true?

 

[MCR247]

Didn't think of that

I believe that they've all been repainted into Northern colours now, but havn't really been keeing an eye out. Does anyone know if this is true?

According to wikipedia they have, but its not always reliable

 

[me123]

The 3+2 seating does not work everywhere. In Scotland, for example, the move on the new 380s is towards 2+2 for all trains because people simply do not use all the seats on a 3+2 train. The high capacity argument doesn't work up here, and in my experience the 2+2 seating allows more people to get a seat, and they'll be more comfortable than in the 3+2 arrangement.

The reasons against 3+2, in my view, are that they're not always used to their full potential, they're uncomfortable, the walkway is too narrow, and they look cramped as well.

I'll explain why the 3+2 doesn't work up here; people won't sit next to each other without space. So the middle seats don't get used, and the group of two on the other side is only half used. I've often seen 5 or 6 seats taken with people still standing, whilst in a 2+2 section all 8 are used.

Of course, in other areas the 3+2 will work. People will use all the seats. But it depends on where you are.

 

[yorksrob]

I caught a Mersyside Pacer on Friday. Still haven't recovered from the back spasms

 

[j0hn0]

dropping the floor would improve 3+2 space

Can't say I've ever enjoyed a journey in a 3+2 coach in the UK, in europe however...

 

[poshbakerloo]

The walkways and seats are narrower...I don't like 3+2 seating, I tend to find that I end up standing anyway, I think it would be better to have 2+2 seats with a wider walkway but with bars for people to hold as they won't be on those types of trains for long anyway!

 

[MCR247]

I've never seen 3 people next to each other on 3+2 seating if they're not in a group

 

[delt1c]

I've never seen 3 people next to each other on 3+2 seating if they're not in a group

Try using the 317's and 315's on the lea valley services, in the peaks nearly all seats are filled wether 2+2 or 3+2

 

[me123]

I have a similar experience to MCR247, although it will vary across the UK. The middle seat is rarely used; people would rather stand than squeeze that close together. In places where this is the case, the 2+2 option can yield an increase in actual capacity and comfort to boot.

 

[johnb]

Try using the 317's and 315's on the lea valley services, in the peaks nearly all seats are filled wether 2+2 or 3+2

Ditto for the 3+2 319s on peak Thameslink services.

 

[mathmo]

I got a busy FGW 165 a month or so ago with 3+2 seating and ended up in the middle of the three - it was quite uncomfortable, but better than standing for 50 minutes! But I agree, if your journey is less than 25 minutes or so then most people would prefer to stand.

 

[asylumxl]

Ditto for the 3+2 319s on peak Thameslink services.

They get packed, and people get aggressive, especially at Harpenden and St Albans. I've sat on the luggage rack to work before .

 

[jon0844]

People usually sit on the luggage storage areas on the 365s, which are nicely in the crumple zone of each carriage. Not that I suppose many people are thinking about a train crashing before sitting down.

I think people sitting on all 3 seats do so only if they've got a long journey, or are commuters that have stood up most days and eventually, over time, decide that they're going to force themselves to squeeze in.

Go off-peak and you'll see a 317 with loads of seats, and people happily standing. I think most people will stand first time around - especially people who aren't confident to ask people to move over, take the bag/coat off the seat etc.

I'm sure there's loads of psychology to it - but I'm not a psychologist!

 

[LondonLarry]

I've never seen 3 people next to each other on 3+2 seating if they're not in a group

I've seen it regularly during the peak on SWT and LM services, so it does happen. At the end of the day, a seat is provided and people have a choice of standing or a slightly incomfortable seated journey. If we had the same width trains as the continent, things wouldn't be so bad. Damn those Victorians for their lack of forward planning!

 

[jon0844]

How much wider are they? I'm sure I've been on trains in Sweden that are 3+3, but still with a wide aisle.

Surely such trains can accommodate many more people, even before you look at the length of a train - or whether it's a double decker or not.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I think a lot of it depends on how easy it is to get to the middle seat. Some of the DMU's I travel on have 3 + 2 airline (or bus) style seats, in which case they might as well not bother as even fellow commuters don't like budging up. If all the seats are facing and the carriage is generally quite roomy (as on a 333 or a VEP) it gives people more of a chance to get stuck in and in my experience some do, so it's probably as well to give them the choice.

 

[507 001]

According to wikipedia they have, but its not always reliable

they have, but the interiors havent been touched