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Higgins Report

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Bantamzen

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It is a difficult twisty poorly signposted walk even though quite short, certainly not good 'space syntax' as the architects would refer to. Any route via Underground takes just as long with long underground passageways, escalators etc to reach platforms but at least you don't get wet if its raining. What's really needed is a significantly improved covered pedestrian route equipped with travelators. The distance isn't any greater than many inter-terminal or terminal to gate links in airports. See my suggested design here -

http://www.townend.me/files/kxlink.pdf

That's certainly a better than the existing solution of walking along the half a mile route between each station entrance (which could be quite a bit longer as an end to end walk if switching between two 400m services at each station). But it does highlight one of my biggest issues with HS2 as things stand, and that's this issue of distances between existing infrastructure & the proposed HS network at a number of points. There seems to be a kind of "It gets you close" approach to interchanging between services, but at places like Leeds, Birmingham, and between HS1 & HS2 if the link is dropped transferring between networks could get problematic. The argument for the accepting the distances seems to be that this is what happens at airports so people will accept it, but generally speaking if you travel by air you allow considerably longer connection times between flights (usually hours) than you would between trains (usually a handful of minutes).

But the truth is that this can be off putting for many people, as the architects might consider the transfers as been "seamless" but the application is often very different. It's not just the distance, it's the number of bodies in front of you, the speed of escalators or travelators, its how many station / G4 staff you have to display tickets to on your route etc. Try transferring from the front of platform 13 across the station to platform 1 at Manchester Pic in a hurry at peak times & you'll know what I mean. I would much rather that existing lines were to share the same terminal that the HS ones would, as ironically they will at Manchester. I understand that this would potentially add to the cost, but building an effective HS network isn't just about doing it for the least cost possible. It has to work for the people using it, and all types of people using it. The current set up is probably OK for commuter traffic, but I wonder what it would be like carting a family with suitcases from the standard lines at Leeds onto HS2, through London & onto HS1 would be like? I can imagine a fair bit of stress & shouting going on.

I do doubt that better connectivity will be built in, as there is now an obvious push to get things moving. I just think it would be nice to think of the network’s future users for once.
 
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YorkshireBear

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The current network envisaged and investigated is London-Brum/Manc and Leeds. With extensions from Manc to Scotland (Edinburgh and Glasgow) and Leeds-Newcastle. Possible some form of HS Transpennine link (not necessarily 225 mph)

That is it really so far, lets get the first bit built first shall we?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's certainly a better than the existing solution of walking along the half a mile route between each station entrance (which could be quite a bit longer as an end to end walk if switching between two 400m services at each station). But it does highlight one of my biggest issues with HS2 as things stand, and that's this issue of distances between existing infrastructure & the proposed HS network at a number of points. There seems to be a kind of "It gets you close" approach to interchanging between services, but at places like Leeds, Birmingham, and between HS1 & HS2 if the link is dropped transferring between networks could get problematic. The argument for the accepting the distances seems to be that this is what happens at airports so people will accept it, but generally speaking if you travel by air you allow considerably longer connection times between flights (usually hours) than you would between trains (usually a handful of minutes).

But the truth is that this can be off putting for many people, as the architects might consider the transfers as been "seamless" but the application is often very different. It's not just the distance, it's the number of bodies in front of you, the speed of escalators or travelators, its how many station / G4 staff you have to display tickets to on your route etc. Try transferring from the front of platform 13 across the station to platform 1 at Manchester Pic in a hurry at peak times & you'll know what I mean. I would much rather that existing lines were to share the same terminal that the HS ones would, as ironically they will at Manchester. I understand that this would potentially add to the cost, but building an effective HS network isn't just about doing it for the least cost possible. It has to work for the people using it, and all types of people using it. The current set up is probably OK for commuter traffic, but I wonder what it would be like carting a family with suitcases from the standard lines at Leeds onto HS2, through London & onto HS1 would be like? I can imagine a fair bit of stress & shouting going on.

I do doubt that better connectivity will be built in, as there is now an obvious push to get things moving. I just think it would be nice to think of the network’s future users for once.

I certainly agree with regards to Leeds as for a uni project i put my station in the site of the Old Leeds City and created a Hub around that with the walking distances very minimal. I rejected having the HS station above it due to the shear cost and disruption in providing it.
 

YorkshireBear

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Like HS1 was built? Then ooops, it doesn't connect up with the next proposal; HS2. Do we never learn?

They are seperate though aren't they? International and Domestic high speed networks... they don't really need to be joined up. Eurostar has struggled to compete with budget airlines i can't see Birmingham - Europe fairing any better....
 

joeykins82

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It is a difficult twisty poorly signposted walk even though quite short, certainly not good 'space syntax' as the architects would refer to. Any route via Underground takes just as long with long underground passageways, escalators etc to reach platforms but at least you don't get wet if its raining. What's really needed is a significantly improved covered pedestrian route equipped with travelators. The distance isn't any greater than many inter-terminal or terminal to gate links in airports. See my suggested design here -

http://www.townend.me/files/kxlink.pdf
My instant reaction seeing that plan is that TL3/4 is where TfL would put the platforms for the Euston St. Pancras Crossrail 2 station.
 

YorkshireBear

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Oh dear. HS1 nowadays carries as much domestic as international trains.

Can't see just means you can't see.

London Commuter trains though aren't they? Not Domestic high speed services.... 140mph commuter trains is all they are.
 

MarkyT

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They are seperate though aren't they? International and Domestic high speed networks... they don't really need to be joined up. Eurostar has struggled to compete with budget airlines i can't see Birmingham - Europe fairing any better....

There are myriad issues with services to Europe from outside London, not least the security and immigration issues. Whilst existing routes are proving very successful now, operators are struggling to develop routes from London beyond the initial three capitals network and the handful of occasional and seasonal destinations in France, but within a few years we should see a new regular Eurostar service to Amsterdam, and once their new train designs have approval, DB may resurrect their deferred plans to run between London and Germany. The big question is what kind of frequency and range of destinations could be offered realistically in Europe from say Birmingham? Perhaps one or two daily return workings to Paris? That would be difficult to reconcile with business demand for flexibility, and if those trains couldn't also serve the London market easily, tying up a whole trainset on such a marginal route at peak business times could be very unnattractive commercially. London St. Pancras is always going to offer the best range and frequency of European destinations, and with a fully developed high frequency HS2 service from the north and midlands, most potential travellers will (in my opinion) prefer the flexibilty of choosing their time of departure and changing trains at a major hub rather than having to tie their plans to a very infrequent through service. The exception for through services might be some sort of charter operation from Birmingham and Manchester which might run outside weekday business peaks and on which tour operators could fully book trains of holidaymakers to southern European destinations, but still the security and immigration issues would need to be addressed.
 

YorkshireBear

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There are myriad issues with services to Europe from outside London, not least the security and immigration issues. Whilst existing routes are proving very successful now, operators are struggling to develop routes from London beyond the initial three capitals network and the handful of occasional and seasonal destinations in France, but within a few years we should see a new regular Eurostar service to Amsterdam, and once their new train designs have approval, DB may resurrect their deferred plans to run between London and Germany. The big question is what kind of frequency and range of destinations could be offered realistically in Europe from say Birmingham? Perhaps one or two daily return workings to Paris? That would be difficult to reconcile with business demand for flexibility, and if those trains couldn't also serve the London market easily, tying up a whole trainset on such a marginal route at peak business times could be very unnattractive commercially. London St. Pancras is always going to offer the best range and frequency of European destinations, and with a fully developed high frequency HS2 service from the north and midlands, most potential travellers will (in my opinion) prefer the flexibilty of choosing their time of departure and changing trains at a major hub rather than having to tie their plans to a very infrequent through service. The exception for through services might be some sort of charter operation from Birmingham and Manchester which might run outside weekday business peaks and on which tour operators could fully book trains of holidaymakers to southern European destinations, but still the security and immigration issues would need to be addressed.

I agree, and £700 million for an infrequent service? No thank you. Good decision to scrap for now.
 

NotATrainspott

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I think what killed the NLL link is just that it is a very expensive and disruptive solution which will either intentionally or not be replaced with a better one within only a decade or three of opening. Once replaced, all that disruption and cost will effectively be for nothing: the track would just be reabsorbed back into the standard NLL along the viaduct with no use being made of the larger loading gauge which cost hundreds of millions of pounds to achieve. If there is a demand for Europe-not-via-London travel, it would likely be just as fast or faster to go around an orbital HSR via Heathrow to connect back in at Fawkham Junction to HS1. The cost of the link could pay for an entire light rail system for somewhere other than London, which would do a lot more good for the not-London city than having a handful of Europe services a day.
 

po8crg

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The only way I could see international services from other than St Pancras working would be to run a regular service from Old Oak Common, so that passengers from all of HS2, from West London, and from the GWML can transfer to international service there.

It would split the London terminus between St Pancras and OOC, which might work if there's enough extra demand generated to keep an adequate frequency to Paris and Brussels, but probably won't for further destinations.

Note that Eurostar's current service is 10 trains a day to Brussels and 17/18 to Paris. Is there really enough demand to put that up high enough to split between two stations?
 

transmanche

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What's really needed is a significantly improved covered pedestrian route equipped with travelators. The distance isn't any greater than many inter-terminal or terminal to gate links in airports. See my suggested design here
Crossrail 2 may provide a solution. It includes a proposed 'Euston St Pancras' station; with access from from both Euston and St Pancras stations probably provided by travelator. So all it'll need is an extra travelator in the middle to provide 'end-to-end' journeys.
 

Haydn1971

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Whilst I like the idea of international services running from the likes of Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds etc, I just can't see the concept generating enough revenue to justify the £700m link. A specific travelactor link between Euston, St Pancras, Kings Cross, ThamesLink and Crossrail, possibly also Crossrail 2 is a great idea and from the sounds of the report is subject to a further study. It's all starting to come together, we just need a further bit of clarity on integration of TransPennine & CrossCountry services, plus what the future holds for ECML, MML & WCML post completion of HS2
 

Wavertreelad

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Liverpool will get it's Phase 2 journey time in Phase 1 so from 110mins to 96mins (14 mins) I think. Liverpool stands to get nothing out of Phase 2 in HS2 Plus.

Maybe as it currently stands, however Higgins is very keen on HS2 linking to a high speed east west link between Liverpool and Hull or at least Leeds. This would imply that some sort of dedicated or vastly upgraded route would be required to link Liverpool and Manchester and beyond, which assuming Phase 2 or even Phase 3 continues northwards towards Scotland would mean the two crossing each other at some point. Furthermore, it also means some form of HS2 station or capacity would be required in Liverpool a topic which is discussed in some detail in the HS2 to Merseyside thread.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=96077

As Higgins points out, it is now up to the respective local councils across the North of England to speak as one and bring forward plans to the future of HS2 and other related infrastructure projects. I agree HS2 Phase 2 to Manchester offers no travelling time benefits to Liverpool but neither did the original plan, but if, Crewe Hub gets the go ahead, it does bring capacity and connectivity benefits to the entire North of England which can only increase the prospect of improvements to the rest of the network west of the Pennines including a purpose built HS2 route 2 to Liverpool. I just hope that the organisations behind the Liverpool City Region proposals and the 20 Miles More Group get together and come up with one plan for HS2 in the Liverpool City Region.
 

Ships

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It's not just the distance, it's the number of bodies in front of you, the speed of escalators or travelators, its how many station / G4 staff you have to display tickets to on your route etc. Try transferring from the front of platform 13 across the station to platform 1 at Manchester Pic in a hurry at peak times & you'll know what I mean.

I do it pretty much every day going to work and it takes 5 minutes tops (even at peak rush hour) and the ticket fellas on the bridge are usually sound, and theres only one set you ever have to go through.....
 

Bantamzen

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There are myriad issues with services to Europe from outside London, not least the security and immigration issues. Whilst existing routes are proving very successful now, operators are struggling to develop routes from London beyond the initial three capitals network and the handful of occasional and seasonal destinations in France, but within a few years we should see a new regular Eurostar service to Amsterdam, and once their new train designs have approval, DB may resurrect their deferred plans to run between London and Germany. The big question is what kind of frequency and range of destinations could be offered realistically in Europe from say Birmingham? Perhaps one or two daily return workings to Paris? That would be difficult to reconcile with business demand for flexibility, and if those trains couldn't also serve the London market easily, tying up a whole trainset on such a marginal route at peak business times could be very unnattractive commercially. London St. Pancras is always going to offer the best range and frequency of European destinations, and with a fully developed high frequency HS2 service from the north and midlands, most potential travellers will (in my opinion) prefer the flexibilty of choosing their time of departure and changing trains at a major hub rather than having to tie their plans to a very infrequent through service. The exception for through services might be some sort of charter operation from Birmingham and Manchester which might run outside weekday business peaks and on which tour operators could fully book trains of holidaymakers to southern European destinations, but still the security and immigration issues would need to be addressed.

Well the security issues are frankly just political ones, so they can be resolved. The rest of Europe seems to get on quite well without near paranoid security measures, and have no more of a problem with illegal immigration or terrorism than we do. So maybe for journeys onto the near continent it's time to revisit how we deal with passport control & security.

As for the flexibility of changing at hub, well we already have a similar model at airports like Heathrow. However, despite a myriad of US bound flights (for example) there is still growing demand for trans-Atlantic flights from other airports such as Manchester which offer only a limited number. So it's not just the number & times of connections that's important, it's the ease of getting to the destination. This might well be true of future train services through to the continent. This is a market that could well grow in time, especially as the airspace over the UK & especially the South East is becoming like many of our roads, congested. You can build all the runways you like, but too many aircraft in the air at one time will lead to chaos. I actually think that with demand for medium to long haul flights growing, pressure will build on airline companies, the CAA & ATCs to give priority slots to these flights over shorter hauls in the coming years. This will lead to more flights being subject to tighter take off & landing slots, and potentially will lead to more delays. This is where regional rail services to Europe might find a market.

Instead of having to arrive at the airport 1 to 2 hours before your take off slot for Paris, then finding you've been delayed for a further hour before you even get moving you could be well on your way from Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds. Don't be too quick to dismiss the potential for these and even longer Euro journeys in the future. DB for example seem to think there's a market to be tapped, and maybe if they do ever get the London-Frankfurt service up & running this might prove to the sceptics here in the UK that there is a market for Euro services of up to 4, 5 and even 6 hours.

Of course with the recommendation that the existing link be dropped, then it's time to look at a more feasible & cost effective solution to link HS2 with HS1. The Heathrow loop as suggested is certainly one solution, but perhaps another more ambitious solution could be found. Maybe the next Crossrail project should be for IC / Euro services through London, with a single terminus at Euston / St Pancras? Not only would it offer a direct route through to HS1 from HS2 whilst still serving central London, but it might offer the chance for IC services from the North West, North East & Scotland to run through to the South Coast. This would then free up capacity on the Overground / Underground as passengers travelling through London would have the option not to change. Yes, lots of cost involved here, but lots of benefits too. Just a thought!

Ships said:
I do it pretty much every day going to work and it takes 5 minutes tops (even at peak rush hour) and the ticket fellas on the bridge are usually sound, and theres only one set you ever have to go through.....

Ah but you do it every day, so you'll probably be used to it & are able, albeit possibly subconsciously, to optimise your transit through the station. I used to be the same travelling through Leeds, I always found myself positioning myself on the train for a quick exit & usually was able to position myself so as to be close to one of the bridges for a swift transit. It's what makes the seasoned commuter stand out ;). But put yourself in the shoes of someone doing it for the first time...
 

Altnabreac

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Well the security issues are frankly just political ones, so they can be resolved. The rest of Europe seems to get on quite well without near paranoid security measures, and have no more of a problem with illegal immigration or terrorism than we do. So maybe for journeys onto the near continent it's time to revisit how we deal with passport control & security.

The reason other EU/EEA countries are less worried about internal EEA border controls is that they mainly have national identity card systems. Only 3 out of 30 Schengen/Schengen accession countries (Denmark, Norway and Iceland) don't have ID cards and Norway are planning to introduce them in the next few years.

The UK/Ireland are very unlikely to remove border controls without introducing ID cards and ID cards are not on anyone's political agenda.

So we can safely assume that the current restrictions on cross border rail traffic will continue indefinitely in the UK.
 

TheKnightWho

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The reason other EU/EEA countries are less worried about internal EEA border controls is that they mainly have national identity card systems. Only 3 out of 30 Schengen/Schengen accession countries (Denmark, Norway and Iceland) don't have ID cards and Norway are planning to introduce them in the next few years.

The UK/Ireland are very unlikely to remove border controls without introducing ID cards and ID cards are not on anyone's political agenda.

So we can safely assume that the current restrictions on cross border rail traffic will continue indefinitely in the UK.

... and have those had problems with terrorism? The only one I can think of is Anders Breivik, who was a Norwegian citizen.
 

Altnabreac

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... and have those had problems with terrorism? The only one I can think of is Anders Breivik, who was a Norwegian citizen.

There are 2 issues here, the security checks and the immigration controls.

The security checks are due to the perceived terrorist threat to the channel tunnel. You can make cogent arguments that its no different to Oresund or Simplon and that it would be easier to blow up the tunnel using a Lorry but the checks are in place and removing them would be what Sir Humphrey would call a "Brave Decision" as the minister who signed off their removal would have their career ruined at the first sniff of an incident on a Eurostar.

The immigration controls are completely separate. In this country the police can't approach you and say "papers please" unlike all those ID card nations. This obviously makes life much easier for illegal immigrants once they are in the UK so we rely to a much larger extent on external border controls to keep them out in the first place.

Now the government is currently trying to change this by introducing more times when people's immigration status will be checked (Employers, Landlords, GPs etc) however given the current political climate reducing immigration checks is not going to be a vote winning policy anytime soon.
 

HowardGWR

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ETA in Spain ring a bell? Also the Madrid bombings (which was not ETA).
Those were carried out by people who had a right to be there, as were our own Tube and bus bombings. Terrorism is typically home-grown. The main reason for the present border regime is to create jobs and pacify MPs. The reason the Schengen countries are not paranoid is because they are not paranoid. I think we've had this discussion before.:D
 

eps200

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There are 2 issues here, the security checks and the immigration controls.

The security checks are due to the perceived terrorist threat to the channel tunnel. You can make cogent arguments that its no different to Oresund or Simplon and that it would be easier to blow up the tunnel using a Lorry but the checks are in place and removing them would be what Sir Humphrey would call a "Brave Decision" as the minister who signed off their removal would have their career ruined at the first sniff of an incident on a Eurostar.

The immigration controls are completely separate. In this country the police can't approach you and say "papers please" unlike all those ID card nations. This obviously makes life much easier for illegal immigrants once they are in the UK so we rely to a much larger extent on external border controls to keep them out in the first place.

Now the government is currently trying to change this by introducing more times when people's immigration status will be checked (Employers, Landlords, GPs etc) however given the current political climate reducing immigration checks is not going to be a vote winning policy anytime soon.

Worth pointing out if we could drop the asine security checks we could simply have some EU badged police get on one end of the train at calise and walk down arrest anyone without papers send them back in a police van, same offices alight at ashford and repeat on a train going the other way.
 
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