Hidden Rules on nights to earlies

[Sly Sloth]

It is a split responsibility, you are signing that you are fit for work but a manager should not let you work, and would certainly not be considered blameless following an incident.

Good luck with that. You and only you sign the statement. There are a few things that happen following an incident, you get D&A tested, you get asked if you had sufficient rest and if you’ve had your break was it at the right time within the diagram and for the correct length. If you’ve done something really bad I doubt the manager would convince the RIO they were to be as culpable as you, more likely show them that you’ve booked on as fit and able

 

[mac]

The thing with the railway is people seem to like working unusual hours and as many as they can get such as 13 days on before 1 off. In November our hours was reduced from 72 to 60 but they have now gone back to 72 with no comments from the union

 

[matt_world2004]

Apparently so but that goes with the territory. You either choose the shift pattern way of life or stick to more of a 9-5 career.

It also can have serious safety consequences as sandilands demonstrated

 

[bazzarati]

Interesting discussion this. I've been trying to make 60Hr compliant base roster and have been told there must be a minimum of 3 days rest between rostering a night shift followed by a day shift.

However, one thing I can't get an answer on is why you can't go from a day shift direct to a night shift the following day. I can't see any fatigue issue with this or why it would be unreasonable. It wouldn't impact on rest in any way. Can anyone suggest why it isn't possible to go from a D to a N shift on the following day?

 

[AverageJoe]

Interesting discussion this. I've been trying to make 60Hr compliant base roster and have been told there must be a minimum of 3 days rest between rostering a night shift followed by a day shift.

However, one thing I can't get an answer on is why you can't go from a day shift direct to a night shift the following day. I can't see any fatigue issue with this or why it would be unreasonable. It wouldn't impact on rest in any way. Can anyone suggest why it isn't possible to go from a D to a N shift on the following day?

Could be to do with circadian rhythm.
I know when I have a shift change coming up I try to use the rest days in between to gradually change my sleep pattern.

If I was to do a 9-5 on Monday and come in for a 22:00-05:00 on the Tuesday I don’t think I would sleep well.

Likely the Tuesday morning I would be waking up around 9/10am ish with a lie in and then trying to get a Power Nap around 8pm in order for me to get through the days work. For me they would be tough.

 

[ComUtoR]

Can anyone suggest why it isn't possible to go from a D to a N shift on the following day?

Hidden+Fatigue Index+Local policy=

If you look at those small factors you can see how difficult it is to build a roster. We have a 44/32/29hr rule that can affect the D>N and vice versa turns.

If you have access to the RSSB website, you can find a lot of research about what shifts are preferable and how they should be rostered. Increasing booking on patterns for example help to reduce fatigue. There is a lot of research regarding how rosters should be created.

 

[dk1]

It also can have serious safety consequences as sandilands demonstrated

That’s up to the individual. I’ve had some terrible nights sleep or lack of over the years. I just open a cab window, drink stronger coffee or do whatever else it takes to concentrate. I can’t ever imagine going to my manager saying I’m tired but then we are all different.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

I had to Google Sandilands. That could have been avoided if only that network had something similar to TPWS. Still seems amazing that the approach to such a severe curve had nothing at all.

 

[BobCratchit]

As an air traffic controller looking to become a train driver this is a very interesting thread. Just as a comparison after working one or two night shifts (we aren’t allowed to do more than two on the trot) we are then legally required to have a minimum of 54 hours before the commencement of the next shift. Sounds like a lot of coffee is needed if I’m successful!

 

[43066]

Well yes, but just commenting that while you might feel you get by, it’s important to be aware of the impact and - where possible, mitigate that impact.

That’s true, unfortunately it’s getting increasingly difficult for people to do that and that only looks set to get worse given the direction of travel - eg bigger movements off spare etc.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Finishing a night shift one morning and starting an early turn fewer than 24 hours later is one of the hardest things to do on the railway, even more so if you love any distance from work. It’s impossible to have two ‘good sleeps’ in that time. But you kinda get used to it after a while.

Obviously only an issue where Sunday is outside of the working week, because Sunday doesn’t count then. But woe betide you if you try and take a Sunday off some other time.

 

[High Dyke]

Many a time I've finished on a Sunday morning and returned on a Monday turn, both early and late. Then again, I'm a relief signalman who gets paid a bit more to be inconvenienced. I have no base rostered Sunday turns.

One question that pops up is about a 'spoilt rest day'. This is where you agree to work your rest day, but have reduced the documented rest period. By definition you've consented to break the time off rules. It doesn't stop colleagues thinking they're being penalised.

 

[dk1]

Pre-Hidden I've done 06:00-14:00 & 22:00-06:00 on a Sunday. In the 9h45 boxes it was commonplace to finish a RDW at 00:30 & sign on again for the 05:00 early shift. I'd sleep in the signal signalbox therefore saving petrol & earn a pretty penny into the bargain. What was not to like?

 

[LowLevel]

Pre-Hidden I've done 06:00-14:00 & 22:00-06:00 on a Sunday. In the 9h45 boxes it was commonplace to finish a RDW at 00:30 & sign on again for the 05:00 early shift. I'd sleep in the signal signalbox therefore saving petrol & earn a pretty penny into the bargain. What was not to like?

What's not to like?

You personally might feel confident in your ability to manage your fatigue but it can creep up on you without it registering and it's killed people, generally wholly unintentionally on the part of the perpetrator. That's why we have hours regs.

No one likes a taxi driver falling asleep on them, as a fine example.

 

[Sly Sloth]

As an air traffic controller looking to become a train driver this is a very interesting thread. Just as a comparison after working one or two night shifts (we aren’t allowed to do more than two on the trot) we are then legally required to have a minimum of 54 hours before the commencement of the next shift. Sounds like a lot of coffee is needed if I’m successful!

If you are successful you’ll hear nothing but safety safety safety! Then the term “where possible” will arise

 

[12LDA28C]

If you are successful you’ll hear nothing but safety safety safety! Then the term “where possible” will arise

Or - 'This Rule is imperative and must be adhered to at all times'

Then - 'These are the seventeen occasions when this Rule can be broken', etc etc.

 

[LCC106]

Or - 'This Rule is imperative and must be adhered to at all times'

Then - 'These are the seventeen occasions when this Rule can be broken', etc etc.

Pretty much like reading the rule book ha ha!

 

[dk1]

What's not to like?

You personally might feel confident in your ability to manage your fatigue but it can creep up on you without it registering and it's killed people, generally wholly unintentionally on the part of the perpetrator. That's why we have hours regs.

No one likes a taxi driver falling asleep on them, as a fine example.

Wouldn't do it now as a train driver but was a signaller then & it was quite normal. I know plenty of taxi drivers too who will live in their vehicle.

 

[Sly Sloth]

Wouldn't do it now as a train driver but was a signaller then & it was quite normal. I know plenty of taxi drivers too who will live in their vehicle.

I moved depots to get away from so many taxis….. some of them were not fit to drive but took as much work as they could

 

[dk1]

I moved depots to get away from so many taxis….. some of them were not fit to drive but took as much work as they could

Yes I’ve often wondered on those early Sunday taxi runs. Recently however it’s been much better.