Hidden Rules on nights to earlies

[RightOnTrack]

Hi all,

Although I’m not technically safety critical in my role (which in itself is a bone of contention), our terms and conditions state that on our spare week (sun - sat), we can expect to be rostered any combination of shifts that ‘Hidden rules allow’.

I have recently been rostered a 1800 - 0600 12hr nightshift followed by a rest day (the remainder of the day on which I finish said shift) and then immediately followed by an early shift 0600 - 1400.

After sleeping following the nightshift it is usually 1400ish when I and then I am expected to go to sleep again around 6 hours later to be properly rested for an early shift. This is impossible, without seriously affecting my concentration levels and cognitive ability.

Do Hidden rules really allow this?

Thanks in advance

R

 

[TBCTBA]

Hi all,

Although I’m not technically safety critical in my role (which in itself is a bone of contention), our terms and conditions state that on our spare week (sun - sat), we can expect to be rostered any combination of shifts that ‘Hidden rules allow’.

I have recently been rostered a 1800 - 0600 12hr nightshift followed by a rest day (the remainder of the day on which I finish said shift) and then immediately followed by an early shift 0600 - 1400.

After sleeping following the nightshift it is usually 1400ish when I and then I am expected to go to sleep again around 6 hours later to be properly rested for an early shift. This is impossible, without seriously affecting my concentration levels and cognitive ability.

Do Hidden rules really allow this?

Thanks in advance

Hidden rules state a minimum of 12 hours between shifts, so as far as I know it can be allocated. However, CAN and SHOULD are two different things...

 

[_toommm_]

I’ve done this myself in a physically demanding job, albeit not on the railway. I tried to get up as late as possible before the 18:00 start (for me, about 16:00), then I would spend my rest day as I would normally. Of course I’d be tired, but I could just about manage it, aiming to get home about 16:00 on my rest day. I’d then go to sleep about 18:00, waking up about 04:00 for my 06:00 start the next day.

I appreciate full well it isn’t nice, but that’s what worked for me if you wanted to give that a go.

 

[TurboMan]

There aren't any Hidden rules as such, just recommendations from Anthony Hidden's report into the Clapham rail crash. As they're recommendations, there is no legal requirement to adhere to them. However, any employer whose employees are required to work shifts must have something in place to manage the risks associated with fatigue; there is some info here on the HSE website. It might be worth discussing with your employer (via your safety rep if you have one) to understand how the fatigue risks associated with the shift pattern you describe are being minimised.

 

[Sly Sloth]

Bottom link drivers at my depot do a night Saturday (22.00-05.30) followed by an early Monday (04.30-11.30) giving around 23 hours off on their rest day (Sunday)
Again, it’s not morally right but is seen as ok

 

[whoosh]

As Sly Sloth's Post above, I have worked nights Saturday, then early AM Monday. 'Hidden' recommendations are for no less than 12 hours between shifts.
Where I had the above situation as a Driver, the Sundays were outside the working week. Where they are inside the working week I believe they try and give 32 hours rest between shifts when a rest day separates them, although I think it's more an aspiration rather than a rule.

 

[LowLevel]

Sundays are a magical day that exist and don't exist as it suits, whether that be the employee or employer varies.

In our case Sundays are largely excluded from the usual "32 hours between turns constitutes a rest day" rule. Finishing at 0100 Sunday morning and booking on at 0345 Monday morning just means I get no sleep, but that's how it is sometimes.

That is as a formally safety critical guard too.

 

[66701GBRF]

Anything other that 12 hours between safety critical shifts (except that weird Network Rail one where you can turn around with 9 hours after booking off at 2200 on a Saturday...if that is still a thing.) will be down to company T&Cs. We are supposed to have 32 hours rest between shifts if it involves one rest day in between or 56 hours if there are two rest days in between. Trouble is if you don't have the required rest and you complain about it they will probably just put you on nights again.

 

[Gloster]

Back in the 1980s, long before Hidden, it was quite normal for signalman to end a week of nights by working 18.00-06.00 over Sunday/Monday night and then coming back for 14.00-22.00 Monday lates every third week. I used to find that I used to be fine at the beginning and end of the shift, but for an hour or so between 17.00 and 19.00 I would usually get a period of drowsiness: my method was to get up and stand or move about the box until it wore off. And I lived on my own, so I didn’t get back after the night shift to the sounds of a family getting up.

We also used to finish 22.00 Saturday and come back at 06.00 Sunday for twelve hours. This at least allows sleeping to your normal rhythm, although you probably don’t get enough sleep. But then, there is rarely much happening on a Sunday morning and most boxes had armchairs.

 

[henke7]

I have never been rostered in this way (Network Rail) and not aware of any other teams I know to be rostered like this. This only occurs when I make myself available for overtime which is voluntary.

Maybe try having a word with your manager about this, they should be all over how fatigue is handled and if you really feel strongly about this then invoke the ‘worksafe’ procedure.

 

[12LDA28C]

Sundays are a magical day that exist and don't exist as it suits, whether that be the employee or employer varies.

In our case Sundays are largely excluded from the usual "32 hours between turns constitutes a rest day" rule. Finishing at 0100 Sunday morning and booking on at 0345 Monday morning just means I get no sleep, but that's how it is sometimes.

That is as a formally safety critical guard too.

Does it depend on whether Sundays are inside or outside the working week? If they form part of the working week then they should certainly be classed as a Rest Day when not worked and form part of the 32-hour rest period between shifts when moving from PM/nights to AM shifts.

If they are outside the working week then they become rather more of a grey area although the '32-hour Rule' should still apply in my opinion.

 

[whoosh]

Further to my post earlier, and the General discussion, I should mention that at the TOC I am at now (which also has Sundays outside the working week), you go from nights Saturday night, and then onto a week of afternoons on the Monday. A much better way of doing things.

 

[The Puddock]

I have never been rostered in this way (Network Rail) and not aware of any other teams I know to be rostered like this. This only occurs when I make myself available for overtime which is voluntary.

I used to be quite regularly rostered this way as a GPR Incident Controller for Network Rail at a location with mixed 12 hour/8 hour turns on different desks, so no overtime involved. After it happened to me about eight weeks in a row I wasn’t happy and took it to the union H&S rep (TSSA) but I was told that it meets the requirements of the National Rostering Principles and Hidden for 12 hours rest between turns so there’s nothing they could do. The NRPs explicitly say that instances of being booked night shift into a rest day “should be minimised“ and where is is unavoidable it must be agreed at Area Council level but I was told this only applies to base rosters and so GPR staff can be rostered nights into a rest day at any time with no come back. It was the same when I pointed out that the NRPs require a minimum 32 hours rest between turns where a rest day intervenes (so finishing at 06:00 on a rest day and coming back out at 06:00 the following day wouldn’t be compliant) I was told this agreement only applies to base rosters for residents not to GPR staff. It doesn’t actually say that in the NRPs but apparently that’s TSSAs interpretation of it.

Of course the above depends on your conditions of service which will be different for different grades and employers. It’s a poor rostering practice in my book and definitely does lead to fatigue. Perhaps you might have more luck fighting is if you’re an RMT member than I had with TSSA.

 

[henke7]

I used to be quite regularly rostered this way as a GPR Incident Controller for Network Rail at a location with mixed 12 hour/8 hour turns on different desks, so no overtime involved. After it happened to me about eight weeks in a row I wasn’t happy and took it to the union H&S rep (TSSA) but I was told that it meets the requirements of the National Rostering Principles and Hidden for 12 hours rest between turns so there’s nothing they could do. The NRPs explicitly say that instances of being booked night shift into a rest day “should be minimised“ and where is is unavoidable it must be agreed at Area Council level but I was told this only applies to base rosters and so GPR staff can be rostered nights into a rest day at any time with no come back. It was the same when I pointed out that the NRPs require a minimum 32 hours rest between turns where a rest day intervenes (so finishing at 06:00 on a rest day and coming back out at 06:00 the following day wouldn’t be compliant) I was told this agreement only applies to base rosters for residents not to GPR staff. It doesn’t actually say that in the NRPs but apparently that’s TSSAs interpretation of it.

Of course the above depends on your conditions of service which will be different for different grades and employers. It’s a poor rostering practice in my book and definitely does lead to fatigue. Perhaps you might have more luck fighting is if you’re an RMT member than I had with TSSA.

Ahh I see, sorry I should have stated I currently work in the maintenance side of things. Maintenance or not though it’s ridiculous that they were asking that of you. Up here even the mention of the worksafe procedure often brings people to their senses. I must admit the RMT are pretty handy at dealing with stuff like this up here.

 

[The Puddock]

I’d put money on the original poster working in a Control role.

 

[Horizon22]

I've heard of 32 hours rest after a night for any other shift but I think that's best practice rather than a hard and fast rule everywhere. Some places it is written in.

If you're in a union, perhaps a rep could advise for your individual circumstances.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I believe there is something called a Fatigue Index,this is something worth looking out for.

 

[Horizon22]

I believe there is something called a Fatigue Index,this is something worth looking out for.

That’s normally for devising a base roster no? As a GPR or relief grade it gets more complex.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I've heard of 32 hours rest after a night for any other shift but I think that's best practice rather than a hard and fast rule everywhere. Some places it is written in.

If you're in a union, perhaps a rep could advise for your individual circumstances.

Indeed, in my previous role as a Roster Clerk at GTR for station staff we had the 32hr rest rule when on spare shift or for GPR's, of course as others say the exceptions are if the staff agrees to RDW or do overtime then it can be reduced to 12hr rest. Definitely depends on the T&C's of a particular grade though, I'd say one to ask the Union as others have said to clarify what the specific agreements are in that workplace!

 

[dk1]

As stated Hidden is purely 12hrs between shifts, 72hrs in a week & 13 consecutive days in any 14. It’s up to the individual to manage sleep & something that goes with shift work. You just learn to get by with as much or as little sleep as you can get & gradually adjust over a day or so.

 

[Horizon22]

As stated Hidden is purely 12hrs between shifts, 72hrs in a week & 13 consecutive days in any 14. It’s up to the individual to manage sleep & something that goes with shift work. You just learn to get by with as much or as little sleep as you can get & gradually adjust over a day or so.

Unfortunately long term nobody just “gets by” with little sleep; it can have serious short, medium & long-term health consequences.

 

[dk1]

Unfortunately long term nobody just “gets by” with little sleep; it can have serious short, medium & long-term health consequences.

Apparently so but that goes with the territory. You either choose the shift pattern way of life or stick to more of a 9-5 career.

 

[O L Leigh]

... or find a colleague with a preference for the opposite shift with whom you can set up a swap.

 

[43066]

Unfortunately long term nobody just “gets by” with little sleep; it can have serious short, medium & long-term health consequences.

Welcome to the wonderful world of railway shift work!

 

[185]

In addition to hidden, a number of places also have additional agreements (inherited) placing a minimum time between the Saturday night finish and Monday morning start. Some are 36 hours, I think.. won via pay deals many years ago.

 

[dk1]

In addition to hidden, a number of places also have additional agreements (inherited) placing a minimum time between the Saturday night finish and Monday morning start. Some are 36 hours, I think.. won via pay deals many years ago.

We used to have a 32hr/52hr local rule between 1/2 FDs but obviously nothing to do with Hidden & discontinued many pay deals ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

I think my worst changeover on a Sunday used to be finishing at 07:45 after the Saturday night turn returning at 04:29 on the Monday. Just either forced myself to stay up all day or no less than 3hrs so up before lunch. You get used to these 'Zombie' days eventually.

 

[Horizon22]

Welcome to the wonderful world of railway shift work!

Well yes, but just commenting that while you might feel you get by, it’s important to be aware of the impact and - where possible, mitigate that impact.

 

[philthetube]

Make sure your company and union are aware of the issues it is causing you, also if you book on with a manager, ensure that they are aware that you are tired and why, their decision whether or not to book you on.

All about botty covering.

 

[Sly Sloth]

Make sure your company and union are aware of the issues it is causing you, also if you book on with a manager, ensure that they are aware that you are tired and why, their decision whether or not to book you on.

All about botty covering.

This is not correct for all grades. If you sign a statement document when you book on it usually says on it that you’re fit for duty. The responsibility is yours and nobody else’s

 

[philthetube]

This is not correct for all grades. If you sign a statement document when you book on it usually says on it that you’re fit for duty. The responsibility is yours and nobody else’s

It is a split responsibility, you are signing that you are fit for work but a manager should not let you work, and would certainly not be considered blameless following an incident.