Heritage Units on the Network

[ACE1888]

With the re introduction of Class 121 'Bubble Cars' on the National network, with all the 'complaints' of overcrowding, why more TOC's haven't gone down this route to free up more stock for additional seating in most needed areas I don't really understand, i could well see a couple of units , leased and fully restored from Preservation Groups on several branch lines in my immediate area (Cornwall and Devon) . Think of the 'Good Publicity', extra passengers, the 'Owing Groups' would see stock restored much quicker (I appreciate that 'agreements between Groups and TOC's would have to be drawn up), but to me anyway it would surely be a 'Win/Win' situation??

 

[Oswyntail]

Do they have all the modern safety gizmos? i suspect there would be a lot more to do than just a "restore".

 

[ainsworth74]

It would expensive to reactivate heritage units for the mainline, you would need to fit TPWS, OTMR, AWS (if its been removed) and Central Door Locking. Those four things alone will rush you a heck of a lot of money. Further you would need to get permission from Network Rail and ORR to run it on the mainline due to the ban on Mk1 stock (the 121s are very restricted as to where they are allowed to run on the mainline in passenger service) which adds more expense. Finally you will need to train up crews to operate them which is more expense.

I suppose it might be possible but the difficulties certainly aren't insignificant and is it worth it for just one or two extra units?

 

[jopsuk]

do the "one train in steam" Cornish branches that have seperate platforms at the interchanges (such as Looe) require AWS and TPWS, given they lack signals?

 

[E&W Lucas]

do the "one train in steam" Cornish branches that have seperate platforms at the interchanges (such as Looe) require AWS and TPWS, given they lack signals?

Yes. AWS warnings are not just found at signals, and buffer stops will be TPWS protected. That's without even considering how it would get onto the route in the first place!

 

[anthony263]

I remember reading about ATW looked at class 101's for the heart of wales services.

A great shame that it didnt come off as i thought it was a good idea especially if it meant extra services.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I've thought before (and mentioned this in a another thread) if it would ever be feasible to do railtours with the likes of the class 101 and others of this generation. Passengers will enjoy the forward view, etc. After all, the class 101s were running in public passenger service as late as 2003! Lots of heritage railways (including the Llangollen Railway) have a lot of first generation DMUs knocking around and loaning them out for mainline running would prove a nice little earner.

 

[anthony263]

I think ATW did plan on getting the class 101's fitted with TPWS, OTMR etc but they couldnt get enough class 101's if i remember

 

[jopsuk]

Of course, if you spend the money, it can be done- the Hastings Diesel unit runs on tours over a wide range.

 

[ChrisCooper]

The Hastings unit would be great for replacing a pair of DMUs on many services, but so far no TOC has taken it up. Anglia did hire it in years ago to run Yarmouth and Lowestoft services in the summer, but since then have used their own hauled stock and hired in locos. There are plenty of Mk2s and suitable locos around too, and there are also DBSOs left which like the NR ones could be converted to Blue Square multiple working to operate with 37s, 31s etc. Gatwick Express sets with 33/1s would be another option. Sadly the spot hire business seems to have near totally dispeared now.

 

[notadriver]

Drivers who operate these units on Heritage lines would not be able to drive them on the main line.

 

[AlexS]

Drivers who operate these units on Heritage lines would not be able to drive them on the main line.

Doesn't necessarily follow - I know several mainline drivers who also drive on heritage lines Most lines have their own following of local staff who also like a go on the heritage job - lots of London Midland at SVR, Northern/TPX at KWVR/NYMR, Network Rail at GCR etc.

 

[tbtc]

We already have heritage DMUs working our local lines with retro features; they are called Pacers. Oh, wait...

 

[Class 33]

Further you would need to get permission from Network Rail and ORR to run it on the mainline due to the ban on Mk1 stock (the 121s are very restricted as to where they are allowed to run on the mainline in passenger service) which adds more expense.

Wish they'd come to some sense and scrap this ridiculous Mk1 stock mainline ban. At the very least, allow trains operating an occasional railtour be except from the ban. I would love to see the likes of a Class 101 or Class 121 mini rail-tour. A tour lasting say just two to three hours, giving good time to enjoy these fine trains and at good speeds. I also hope there'll be a slam-door EMU rail-tour or two(or three or four...) in the near future, but I think there's more chances of seeing pigs fly unfortunately due to this mk1 stock mainline ban nonsence.

It is good that the Class 121's can still be enjoyed on the Cardiff Bay line. But this is such a ridiculously short journey time. Two and a half minutes basically. By the time you've sat down, it's time to get off again! I know then run on the longer Aylesbury-Princess Risberough line on weekdays though. One time I will get round to doing that, hopefully before they're taken out of service.

Which other lines do you think would be suitable for a Class 101 or Class 121 set to be used on? I think the Severn Beach branch on weekends would be great for them to operate on.

 

[Yew]

I would say the robin hood line during the day could be a good candidate, not too busy, and going over mansfield viaduct in a happy old train would be quite fun

 

[Rhydgaled]

There are plenty of Mk2s and suitable locos around too, and there are also DBSOs left which like the NR ones could be converted to Blue Square multiple working to operate with 37s, 31s etc.

Plenty of DBSOs being 6? Still, it is enough to make some useful trains if they were added to Arriva's fleet of mark 2s. I personally think it is better to fit some 47s or 57s with TDM rather than convert the DBSOs as then those locos would also be able to work with mark3 and mark4 DVTs (the latter, along with wires to Swansea, being what I think is needed to save the Pembroke Dock service after electrification of GWML).

 

[sprinterguy]

The North Yorkshire Moors Railway already has permission to operate over NR between Battersby Junction and Whitby. Extend those running rights to Middlesborough, and there you have a ready source of heritage DMU stock to operate the Middlesborough to Whitby line, freeing up a Northern unit or two for elsewhere.

I think that introducing heritage DMUs onto self contained, non-commuter lines that have a low stock requirement (and preferably, high tourist use) would be a great idea. The Cornish & Devon branches would be other suitable candidates for such an approach.
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Plenty of DBSOs being 6? Still, it is enough to make some useful trains if they were added to Arriva's fleet of mark 2s. I personally think it is better to fit some 47s or 57s with TDM rather than convert the DBSOs as then those locos would also be able to work with mark3 and mark4 DVTs (the latter, along with wires to Swansea, being what I think is needed to save the Pembroke Dock service after electrification of GWML).

ATW really should be making better use of its’ mark 2 carriages it has available when they are owned outright by Arriva and as such are there for the taking! Adding the six available DBSOs to its’ ranks and forming up six loco-hauled push-pull rakes offering similar flexibility to a DMU should be a no brainer. It’s almost criminal that this is not being done already.

 

[E&W Lucas]

The North Yorkshire Moors Railway already has permission to operate over NR between Battersby Junction and Whitby. Extend those running rights to Middlesborough, and there you have a ready source of heritage DMU stock to operate the Middlesborough to Whitby line, freeing up a Northern unit or two for elsewhere.

Slight outbreak of fantasy railway there I'm afraid. The NYMR has an Open Access arrangement. The Northern Middlesborough - Whitby services are the subject of a franchise contract with the government. There is no likelyhood of the NYMR taking over the public service operation of the EVL. There is no "ready source" of DMU's at Grosmont either. There is one 3 car 101 on the railway, and at present it is not permitted on the EVL. There are neither the staff, workshop or stock storage facilities for any more of its kind. The NYMR does not have the staff - paid or voluntary - to undertake more services, even if the paths were available. (Which they aren't). Volunteer staff driving on the EVL is fine with the Unions, as no paid staff are affected by their use. The services wouldn't run otherwise. However, if Northern staff were to be displaced by either volunteers, or people working on preserved railway wages, that would most definitely change. That would cause problems for the significant number of volunteers that work in the mainline rail industry.

"Heritage" Units are just that. They are not going to make a widespread comeback, as:

• You can't get the spares
• Maintenance facilities no longer exist for them
• They do not meet modern emissions & safety standards

 

[sprinterguy]

Do the NYMR no longer have the “Thumper” in their ownership?

Most of this thread is conjectural by its’ very nature. Returning heritage DMUs to sections of the national network is extremely unlikely for a whole host of reasons outlined by yourself and others, but nonetheless there are sections of the UK railway network that present themselves as being better suited to such an operation than others.

 

[yorksrob]

Do the NYMR no longer have the “Thumper” in their ownership?

Most of this thread is conjectural by its’ very nature. Returning heritage DMUs to sections of the national network is extremely unlikely for a whole host of reasons outlined by yourself and others, but nonetheless there are sections of the UK railway network that present themselves as being better suited to such an operation than others.

I think that's the one which went to Ongar a short while back.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I think that's the one which went to Ongar a short while back.

It's certainly gone somewhere down that way. Adjudged to be beyond economic repair, due to non - availability of spare parts.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think that's the one which went to Ongar a short while back.

Ah, fair enough. The North York Moors always struck me as a bit of an exotic retirement home for a Thumper (Use of the preserved Hastings unit on the Whitby branch a while back notwithstanding).

 

[yorksrob]

Ah, fair enough. The North York Moors always struck me as a bit of an exotic retirement home for a Thumper (Use of the preserved Hastings unit on the Whitby branch a while back notwithstanding).

I like the idea of a TOC getting the various exemptions for a given branch and hiring some heritage units for it. If they could find enough of the same type of unit in the right condition (which with today's preservation scene would seem possible) then it could free up some units for else where - even if it continued to use it's own staff. As other posters have said it's probably too much paperwork sadly.

 

[NXEA!]

Wish they'd come to some sense and scrap this ridiculous Mk1 stock mainline ban. At the very least, allow trains operating an occasional railtour be except from the ban. I would love to see the likes of a Class 101 or Class 121 mini rail-tour. A tour lasting say just two to three hours, giving good time to enjoy these fine trains and at good speeds. I also hope there'll be a slam-door EMU rail-tour or two(or three or four...) in the near future, but I think there's more chances of seeing pigs fly unfortunately due to this mk1 stock mainline ban nonsence.

It is good that the Class 121's can still be enjoyed on the Cardiff Bay line. But this is such a ridiculously short journey time. Two and a half minutes basically. By the time you've sat down, it's time to get off again! I know then run on the longer Aylesbury-Princess Risberough line on weekdays though. One time I will get round to doing that, hopefully before they're taken out of service.

Which other lines do you think would be suitable for a Class 101 or Class 121 set to be used on? I think the Severn Beach branch on weekends would be great for them to operate on.

Personally I would like to see a Heritage DMU on the Marks Tey-Sudbury line. That free's up a 156 which could go to EMT or Northern, or it could work a 2 car 170 diagram which could then go to XC or TPE. Also its ideal as its a community line and they could always base it at the Railway Museum at Chappel.

 

[route:oxford]

Plenty of DBSOs being 6? Still, it is enough to make some useful trains if they were added to Arriva's fleet of mark 2s. I personally think it is better to fit some 47s or 57s with TDM rather than convert the DBSOs as then those locos would also be able to work with mark3 and mark4 DVTs (the latter, along with wires to Swansea, being what I think is needed to save the Pembroke Dock service after electrification of GWML).

Well, what could be done is to tag on an order of DBSOs based upon the design/jigs of the Class 172 DMSL.

Plenty of space underneath for engine/alternator for "hotel" supply. DDA compliant loo and access/doors.

Just need a Mark1/2/3 compatible gangway and a method to talk to the Door-interlock.

 

[colchesterken]

MMM if they would lift the ban,we could have the cl 306 on lacal Colchester-Walton services.and rush hour specials with the bits of the 309 put together,,Mangaps have some coaches from 302/7 they could do Maningtree-Harwich locals
oops day dreaming again...

 

[Nym]

In the world of sense, would it be possible to convert the DBSOs to become ETH Generators and DBSOs for AAR, with Mk2 or Mk3s sitting betwen them (with new AAR passthrough).

Class 66 + many Mk2 + DBSO Commuter releif diagrams 'r' us, plenty of 66s kicking about with DBS and DRS...

 

[Hydro]

In the world of sense, would it be possible to convert the DBSOs to become ETH Generators and DBSOs for AAR

NR DBSO's have electrical supply generators (takes up about half the coach), and were converted to blue star, so AAR could be possible. Expensive though.

 

[justinsteam]

Do they have all the modern safety gizmos? i suspect there would be a lot more to do than just a "restore".

The 121 on the Princes Risborough to Aylesbury line definitely has Central Door Locking.

 

[Nym]

NR DBSO's have electrical supply generators (takes up about half the coach), and were converted to blue star, so AAR could be possible. Expensive though.

More expensive than a 4 or 5 car 172?

Or, be lazy, keep them as TDM and have FL Locos running them on either Northampton Releifs or North West limited stop commuter services as a stop gap before the more than likely delayed 317s arrive.

Out of intrest are there any operational 47s with TDM fitted?