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Heritage line punctuality

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Merle Haggard

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The railways are reacting to consumer demand. Some of the Narrow Gauge Lines in North Wales are at near 100% pre booking and have been at 90% plus for many years. Down in Kent we are not at that sort of levels yet but booking office takings are a fraction of what they were 10 years ago. Its like cash that is in terminal decline. Some railways are now cash free, we are lucky that we still have a branch of one of the main banks in a relatively small country town. Were that to close it would be very difficult to justify employing somebody to drive 30 miles round trips to pick up hundreds of pound coins so we can give change for a £20 note that the customer has got from an atm to pay for a £2.50 coffee.

Two points
i) paying at the booking office does not infer paying in cash. I pay by card/swipe at ticket office, the money gets into the railway's bank account exactly the same as on-line payment. Interestingly, if I pay on-line I am charged a 'booking fee', so presumably there's more administration costs in on-line (unless the railway just sees it as easy money - you're not told the booking fee until the final stage of your purchase. When Seatfrog does this we are told it's illegal).

ii) I have never travelled on a heritage trains since Covid that is anything near full. Maybe the reason that pre-bookings are near 100% on the North Wales N.G. lines is because the websites active deter you from just turning up; it's certainly had that effect on me, so you've lost custom.

What happens to people who book in advance and then the day chosen is very poor weather (heavy rain in North Wales) so they decide not to travel; what refund do they get?
 
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Spamcan81

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Two points
i) paying at the booking office does not infer paying in cash. I pay by card/swipe at ticket office, the money gets into the railway's bank account exactly the same as on-line payment. Interestingly, if I pay on-line I am charged a 'booking fee', so presumably there's more administration costs in on-line (unless the railway just sees it as easy money - you're not told the booking fee until the final stage of your purchase. When Seatfrog does this we are told it's illegal).

ii) I have never travelled on a heritage trains since Covid that is anything near full. Maybe the reason that pre-bookings are near 100% on the North Wales N.G. lines is because the websites active deter you from just turning up; it's certainly had that effect on me, so you've lost custom.

What happens to people who book in advance and then the day chosen is very poor weather (heavy rain in North Wales) so they decide not to travel; what refund do they get?
Not the railway’s fault if it rains so why should anyone get a refund?
 

Spamcan81

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That attitude exactly sums up why I will never consider paying in advance for optional leisure expenditure.
I’ve travelled on the Welsh ng in all weathers. I expect rain so take the appropriate clothing with me. To expect a railway - other attractions are available - to compensate you for the vagaries of the weather is asking too much IMO.
 

bramling

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I’ve travelled on the Welsh ng in all weathers. I expect rain so take the appropriate clothing with me. To expect a railway - other attractions are available - to compensate you for the vagaries of the weather is asking too much IMO.

I can see two sides to this one to be fair. With the increase in costs, it possibly may not be viable for railways to take the hit when the weather is poor. But by the same token I bet there’s people who will go on a heritage railway in poor weather precisely because it’s something indoor to do. Pre-booking makes life difficult for both these groups.
 

Flange Squeal

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Two points
i) paying at the booking office does not infer paying in cash. I pay by card/swipe at ticket office, the money gets into the railway's bank account exactly the same as on-line payment. Interestingly, if I pay on-line I am charged a 'booking fee', so presumably there's more administration costs in on-line (unless the railway just sees it as easy money - you're not told the booking fee until the final stage of your purchase. When Seatfrog does this we are told it's illegal).

ii) I have never travelled on a heritage trains since Covid that is anything near full. Maybe the reason that pre-bookings are near 100% on the North Wales N.G. lines is because the websites active deter you from just turning up; it's certainly had that effect on me, so you've lost custom.

What happens to people who book in advance and then the day chosen is very poor weather (heavy rain in North Wales) so they decide not to travel; what refund do they get?
Regarding your two points and my experience described in my post yesterday about the West Somerset Railway, point 'i' applies to me too. All you can buy online is a full price day rover ticket, so anyone not wanting a full price rover has to visit the ticket office whether they are paying by card or cash (this could be because they want a single/return, a part-trip ticket, or have some sort of discount such as a Heritage Railway Association Privilege or mainline staff 'priv' to apply to their transaction). Even if you want a Rover ticket but were say on holiday and wanted to judge the best weather day to do it, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do given the area is a tourism area, you can't buy a Rover online on the day so would still need to have joined the 15-20 minute queue that snaked back across the road and up towards the toilets and car park while this one enquiry was dealt with.

With point 'ii', the West Somerset Railway was certainly seeing some full trips yesterday (a term time Tuesday). The 1015 from Bishops Lydeard was seven coaches in length and quite cosy from the start, but by around Williton/Watchet we were bordering on standing room. The 1430 from Minehead was six coaches in length but had coaches reserved for three coach parties travelling the full length. This train was packed, however thankfully a couple of minutes before departure we were told that one of the coach parties had now been moved to the 1630, so they were able to de-reserve one of the reserved carriages so most people could now at least squeeze into a seat somewhere on the train.

Regarding some of the Welsh railways I do keep looking at those and definitely intend to visit at some point, but the pre-booking does mean it'll probably be a case of trying to juggle a short notice trip when there is a period of good looking weather and availability (particularly on the full-length Welsh Highland Railway journeys). I wouldn't want to risk turning up on the day as they do seem to get booked up, but at the same time I wouldn't expect them to refund me if I pre-book but the weather on the day is bad as they may well have been able to sell those seats to someone else who would actually have turned up but were prevented doing so by me pulling out of my booking at short notice. It just means they may have to wait for my money, however it doesn't appear from what I've read (or seen when checking availability) that they struggle too much on attracting custom though, so they probably won't be too bothered by this. I expect many of their visitors will be on holiday so will book on one of the days they are in the area and turn up regardless as they are there anyway, where as I would likely be making a special trip especially to do the line which probably puts me very much in the minority of their customers and I understand that.
 

bramling

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It interests me that, while a comparatively large increase has been given (and I am not criticising it) there's been no talk of how the extra costs of it are covered. Back in my day on Railfreight the proportion of cost causation was human resources /mobile resources / infrastructure about evenly. So if human resources are 33% of costs, and they increase by roundly 15%, then the cost increase overall will be about 5%.
I suppose the argument will be that fares increase by r.p.i. + every year, so some of it has already been achieved and the rest will be in the next fares increase. But it's significant.

One presumes that coal is a significant factor affecting heritage railways, both in terms of how to get it, as well as the actual cost. For those railways with paid staff, that will be an issue as well. Aside from those two factors there’s no doubt been a general increase in costs across the board reflecting the general high levels of inflation. Add to this lost revenue during the various Covid shutdowns or where services had to run with restrictions on numbers.

But worth noting that many heritage railways have significantly increased their fares as well.
 

Merle Haggard

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One presumes that coal is a significant factor affecting heritage railways,

I made the point in an earlier post about the cost of wasted coal burned while waiting 20 minutes for a coach party. All these delays waste fuel; from experience a bigger steam engine burns a surprisingly large amount of coal just standing, and lifting the safety valves in the wait is an absolute waste of energy.

That was why I'm surprised that more attention isn't paid tio punctuality, now coal is so expensive.
 

A S Leib

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The 11:00 departure from Alnwick Lionheart (Aln Valley Railway) on Saturday got into the station ~20 minutes late and was then cancelled, with the 12:00 being the following one, and that was itself a pacer substitution for what was originally planned to be a steam or diesel service (I can't remember which). On the plus side, there were still more passenger trains running there than through Alnmouth that day.
 

norbitonflyer

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Travelling on both the Festiniog and WHR in the past year or so I noticed that even on the end-to-end excursions one carriage is set aside for turn up and go passengers, and indeed we did pick up some walkers at the Snowdon Ranger. One reason for them being restricted tom ione carriage is that there are several short platforms, notably the private stop at Coed y Bleddiau, provided for users of the holiday cottage there (for which there is no other access except mountain paths)
 

Gwr12345

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Travelling on both the Festiniog and WHR in the past year or so I noticed that even on the end-to-end excursions one carriage is set aside for turn up and go passengers, and indeed we did pick up some walkers at the Snowdon Ranger. One reason for them being restricted tom ione carriage is that there are several short platforms, notably the private stop at Coed y Bleddiau, provided for users of the holiday cottage there (for which there is no other access except mountain paths)
When I wanted to just turn up and go from Porthmadog to Caernarfon I got the bus to Point Croesor and was the only to board there, as it was the first intermediate stop it meant I had the seat of my choice!
Also the time keeping end to end wasn't bad! I was less than 5 minutes late despite being even later to some of the intermediate stops. The Ffestiniogs time keeping though... nowhere near as good, I wouldn't trust it for the 5 minute NR connection at Blaenau
 

The exile

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I’ve travelled on the Welsh ng in all weathers. I expect rain so take the appropriate clothing with me. To expect a railway - other attractions are available - to compensate you for the vagaries of the weather is asking too much IMO.
Not if it forces you to book / pay in advance. If you have chosen to do so it’s a different matter.
 

Ghostbus

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I've visited a fair few HRs over the years (albeit not many since the pandemic), usually trying to cram in as much mileage as the timetable will allow. Or for the larger ones, trying to see as many stations and related exhibits as the timetable will allow.

I honestly don't remember a train ever being delayed or canceled. Obviously it must have happened, so I can only assume that I was either happy to live with it, and/or didn't blame the railway at all (hence the reason must have been fully explained and perfectly understandable under the circumstances).

That said, I am able bodied and very comfortable with public transport.

I think I've probably had more issues with the normal public transport taking me to a HR than the HR, to the point that I would rather pay for private transport than risk my visit having to be cut short because of it.
 

paul1609

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I made the point in an earlier post about the cost of wasted coal burned while waiting 20 minutes for a coach party. All these delays waste fuel; from experience a bigger steam engine burns a surprisingly large amount of coal just standing, and lifting the safety valves in the wait is an absolute waste of energy.

That was why I'm surprised that more attention isn't paid tio punctuality, now coal is so expensive.
As a now retired fireman of many years experience I can assure you that the coal used in a 20 min delay will be negligible. The coal is used raising steam and when the engine is working hard not when it's sitting in a station.
I was last at the railway on Saturday income from coach operators on that day was nearly 70 of our total income. These are firms that come many times a year and that we have had relationships with for many years. Without their business there would be no railway for the families, enthusiasts and volunteers. If their coach phones us to say it's been caught in traffic etc.etc and will be 20 mins late, do you really think we are going to leave them behind?
 

Merle Haggard

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As a now retired fireman of many years experience I can assure you that the coal used in a 20 min delay will be negligible. The coal is used raising steam and when the engine is working hard not when it's sitting in a station.
I was last at the railway on Saturday income from coach operators on that day was nearly 70 of our total income. These are firms that come many times a year and that we have had relationships with for many years. Without their business there would be no railway for the families, enthusiasts and volunteers. If their coach phones us to say it's been caught in traffic etc.etc and will be 20 mins late, do you really think we are going to leave them behind?

If that's your experience about standing then I obviously accept it; except that, on the occasion I mentioned, the fireman had built up a full head of steam at booked departure time (there's a climb soon after leaving the station) and, during the time the train was waiting for the coach, he was unable to prevent the loco blowing off (it was the subject of a conversation). Releasing superheated steam self evidently wastes the considerable energy, created by burning coal, in it. My experience was on cabbing locos in stations (in B.R. days) and the fireman usually shovelled a lot of coal while he was waiting for the right away, though I accept it may have been more to build up the fire than just through standing.

Regarding waiting for a coach caught up in road traffic; on the occasion I mentioned along with every other passenger I also travelled by road (the railway has no easy rail network link) and I allowed for the possibility of delay and accordingly left earlier than a perfect world would require. Perhaps one right time departure, leaving the coach party behind, might encourage coach operators to realise that road delays should be factored in - in the case I outlined, there was another train booked about an hour after ours, so the delay would actually have only been 40 minutes. As well, because it is a single line with passing loops, our late departure delayed the next train in the opposite direction at the next loop, thus delaying that train's arrival at the terminal. On my train, it reduced the time available at the other end to explore the station, so the late coach had an effect on the enjoyment of people on more than one train. Perhaps, as I said in my earlier post, had the coach passengers displayed a sense of urgency and gratitude in joining the train (and passengers) waiting for them I would have felt more sympathy.

The loss of revenue is understandable but the consideration is a bit one-sided. As I set out in my post, on another line we waited at the outer terminal for yet another late coach; all the passengers already on board had already paid and the delay was risking missing the connection into the rail network at the other end with a not frequent service toward the end of the day. It seemed the calculation made was 'we've already got these mugs' money and we don't do refunds so they have to just accept the delay and lump it - we'll wait for the coach revenue, which we might not get if we leave them behind'. Although passengers pointed out the consequences of the delay the staff showed indifference which could be construed as contempt.

All the coach parties I've seen travel one-way; your line must have a lot of coach parties for their 'singles' sales to dwarf the revenue from day rover tickets - which most ordinary passengers buy.
 

paul1609

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If that's your experience about standing then I obviously accept it; except that, on the occasion I mentioned, the fireman had built up a full head of steam at booked departure time (there's a climb soon after leaving the station) and, during the time the train was waiting for the coach, he was unable to prevent the loco blowing off (it was the subject of a conversation). Releasing superheated steam self evidently wastes the considerable energy, created by burning coal, in it. My experience was on cabbing locos in stations (in B.R. days) and the fireman usually shovelled a lot of coal while he was waiting for the right away, though I accept it may have been more to build up the fire than just through standing.

Regarding waiting for a coach caught up in road traffic; on the occasion I mentioned along with every other passenger I also travelled by road (the railway has no easy rail network link) and I allowed for the possibility of delay and accordingly left earlier than a perfect world would require. Perhaps one right time departure, leaving the coach party behind, might encourage coach operators to realise that road delays should be factored in - in the case I outlined, there was another train booked about an hour after ours, so the delay would actually have only been 40 minutes. As well, because it is a single line with passing loops, our late departure delayed the next train in the opposite direction at the next loop, thus delaying that train's arrival at the terminal. On my train, it reduced the time available at the other end to explore the station, so the late coach had an effect on the enjoyment of people on more than one train. Perhaps, as I said in my earlier post, had the coach passengers displayed a sense of urgency and gratitude in joining the train (and passengers) waiting for them I would have felt more sympathy.

The loss of revenue is understandable but the consideration is a bit one-sided. As I set out in my post, on another line we waited at the outer terminal for yet another late coach; all the passengers already on board had already paid and the delay was risking missing the connection into the rail network at the other end with a not frequent service toward the end of the day. It seemed the calculation made was 'we've already got these mugs' money and we don't do refunds so they have to just accept the delay and lump it - we'll wait for the coach revenue, which we might not get if we leave them behind'. Although passengers pointed out the consequences of the delay the staff showed indifference which could be construed as contempt.

All the coach parties I've seen travel one-way; your line must have a lot of coach parties for their 'singles' sales to dwarf the revenue from day rover tickets - which most ordinary passengers buy.
Yes quite a lot of ours (not all) travel one way as well, the difference is they all pretty much buy a catering package which is a big boost to income and profitability.
Even for our neighbours and friends at the Spa Valley Railway up the road which has a focus very much on the enthusiast on train catering account for over 50% of their income.
 

Krokodil

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on the occasion I mentioned, the fireman had built up a full head of steam at booked departure time (there's a climb soon after leaving the station) and, during the time the train was waiting for the coach, he was unable to prevent the loco blowing off
Yes, that wasted steam. It's a separate issue from the coal burned just simmering gently away.
 

tram21

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Was disappointed this afternoon to be let down by the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway. After walking the Ecclesbourne Way from Duffield to Idridgehay, the plan was to get the train back. However after completing the walk the train time came and went, and calling the ticket office, they said the train was at least 30 minutes late, with it having not yet left Wirksworth. They quoted 'earlier disruptions' as the reason, but with a not particularly tight timetable, it was disappointing I was unable to ride the railway, with them missing out on £18 from us which instead went to trentbarton which saved the day.

Let's hope it's more reliable in spring when I complete the walk!
 

Jaynie350

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I work on the RH&DR as a volunteer dispatcher and New Romney signaller, and we really do try to run to time. Most of our departures do run on time, although occasionally we have trains running late, and that is usually down to rail conditions, the poor quality coal causing the fires to clinker and late minute passengers.
But with some quick loco changes and on the ball drivers and dispatchers you can make some of it back.
 

BR Boy 125

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I have found some lines do keep well to timetables others don't seem to be able keep to it.

Have you found this to be the case ?

Which heritage lines is best or worse at it ?
At the LBNGR (my local line), we run at a 1 train an hour policy for our Santa specials, running only half the length of the line to Leedon Loop. It works as a timetable that you can easily make up time on if the public runs late (very common sight). It's about 1.5 miles so still a decent run by south england narrow gauge railway standards. To be fair the only loco on roster is O&K Pedemoura, our most powerful engine with relatively easy operation, so operations have been mostly smooth.
 

43055

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At the LBNGR (my local line), we run at a 1 train an hour policy for our Santa specials, running only half the length of the line to Leedon Loop. It works as a timetable that you can easily make up time on if the public runs late (very common sight). It's about 1.5 miles so still a decent run by south england narrow gauge railway standards. To be fair the only loco on roster is O&K Pedemoura, our most powerful engine with relatively easy operation, so operations have been mostly smooth.
Indeed. I think most of the Santa Trains I have done we had to wait a few minuets for late passengers. Fortunately there is a bit of slack in the timetable both during the run and in the turn around to make it up. On a couple of occasions as well instead of waiting 10 mins at the 'North Pole' we continued a little down the line before heading straight back.
 
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