Heritage line punctuality

[xotGD]

Next month, on our annual tour of British heritage railways, my French friend and I have a 17 minute connection between arriving at Tywyn Wharf - hopefully - at 13 02 and departing from Tywyn TfW station for Edinburgh, via Shrewsbury and Crewe, at 13 19. I hope that is doable.

Maybe book seats on the Sleeper?

 

[paul1609]

Tongue firmly in cheek, is it really your railway?

As it's a company limited by guarantee it's owned by the members and we have a liability of £1 if it goes bust so yes it really is mine along with all my mates.

 

[DanNCL]

Something I’ve noticed since starting volunteering on a heritage line is that quite a few passengers expect staff to open each door individually for them and will hold the train up until we do so. People do this even on a Pacer where opening the door is as simple as pressing a button - they’ll stand at a set of doors and wait for someone to come and press the button for them.

Passengers are without a shadow of a doubt the biggest cause of delays.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Something I’ve noticed since starting volunteering on a heritage line is that quite a few passengers expect staff to open each door individually for them and will hold the train up until we do so. People do this even on a Pacer where opening the door is as simple as pressing a button - they’ll stand at a set of doors and wait for someone to come and press the button for them.

Passengers are without a shadow of a doubt the biggest cause of delays.

Is it just possible that passengers unused to train protocol think that the door has to be opened by a member of staff?

Years ago around here when all the inter-town bus services were operated by Lodekkas with manual doors you HAD to wait until the conductor opened it for you to board or alight.

 

[DanNCL]

Is it just possible that passengers unused to train protocol think that the door has to be opened by a member of staff?

Years ago around here when all the inter-town bus services were operated by Lodekkas with manual doors you HAD to wait until the conductor opened it for you to board or alight.

It might be but at a tiny unmanned rural halt like a couple of the stations we stop at you’d think it’d be obvious that you opened the door yourself, especially on a Pacer that’s still running in Northern purple.
At the larger stations it makes more sense.

 

[Krokodil]

Do any heritage railways have an explicit policy of providing replacement transport if their final train of the day is cancelled?

The Ffestiniog has sometimes had to put on road transport to sort out stranded passengers - particularly in the days when they actually connected at Blaenau.

Wouldn't have been quite so bad if the coach party we waited for had displayed a sense of urgency when they eventually arrived.

They never do. Usually scatter between the shop and the toilets.

This is the 'attraction' vs 'operational heritage railway' distinction - I've met tourists who believe they can delay departures because their paying for an experience, one memorable couple who asked the guard to delay the return working (timetabled 45min turnaround) so they could have lunch in the local pub... They were politely but assertively that would not be happening and handed a timetable to plan their afternoon around .

Read Railway Adventure by L. T. C. Rolt. It was like that even in the first season of the Talyllyn's preservation.

Passengers are without a shadow of a doubt the biggest cause of delays.

No different from the mainline then!

 

[Belperpete]

Next month, on our annual tour of British heritage railways, my French friend and I have a 17 minute connection between arriving at Tywyn Wharf - hopefully - at 13 02 and departing from Tywyn TfW station for Edinburgh, via Shrewsbury and Crewe, at 13 19. I hope that is doable.

You are cutting it very fine. It is a five minute walk between the stations, and allowing a couple of minutes for the guard on the TR train to unlock the doors and you to get off, leaves only 10 minutes - assuming the TR train arrives spot on time.

Provided that you are not going on a special event day (such as next month's Heritage Weekend), the TR's timekeeping isn't too bad, so I would think you should do it. However, I hope you have a plan B.

If it is the Heritage Weekend that you are going for, I think you will definitely need a plan B. I went to an event there earlier this year, and I recall we were over half an hour late.

 

[Dave W]

KWVR this morning: Running 50 minutes late due to a brake problem with one of the coaches. By this afternoon, back on schedule. Nicely done.

I was there Sunday - some late running for various reasons but trains dispatched promptly and efficiently.

Marvellous railway - and in the context of this thread, I felt the staff were really clued up top to bottom (except the tea girl who didn't understand when I advised her she hadn't charged me enough - will let her off!!!)

 

[Belperpete]

It did occur to me while attending a gala weekend at a large heritage railway in the spring that a consistent theme of the day was the incompetency of the platform staff. When the guard was trying to get the train away from a crowded platform or stock was being shunted into a platform they were no help at all, being in the wrong place and looking in the wrong direction. I wonder how much training platform staff get on Heritage Railways?

On the railway that I am involved in, we have platform assistants and hosts. The platform assistants are properly trained in train despatch. The hosts perform an important meet and greet role, directing people to appropriate seats, answering questions, etc. However, they are not trained in despatching duties, and therefore do not participate in such duties.

 

[D6130]

You are cutting it very fine. It is a five minute walk between the stations, and allowing a couple of minutes for the guard on the TR train to unlock the doors and you to get off, leaves only 10 minutes - assuming the TR train arrives spot on time.

I may have a quiet word with the guard prior to departure from Tywyn on the outward journey, explain the situation to them and ask if they can unlock our compartment first on returning to the Wharf.

Provided that you are not going on a special event day (such as next month's Heritage Weekend), the TR's timekeeping isn't too bad, so I would think you should do it. However, I hope you have a plan B.

It will be Sunday 8th October which - as far as I can see - isn't a heritage weekend. Given that the TfW service is only two-hourly, plan 'B' is a later connection via Wolverhampton, arriving in Edinburgh at 22 26 instead of 20 26.

Thanks for the insight!

 

[blackfive460]

The North Yorkshire Moors Railway always seems to manage some degree of late running when I visit which, when there's only a bus every two hours to get me home can be something of a problem!

 

[merry]

So the GCR has, in my experience, mostly good timekeeping, but of course it varies with issues encountered. On the whole, it's only slightly adrift, and staff seem to get fairly uncomfortable beyond a 10-15 min delay.
Of course, the GCR is blessed with the operational flexibility of double track, and the single line to Leicester is usually the limiting factor on recovery of delay (and indeed constrains the whole timetable).
There are of course exceptions, notably the evening diners which, as an 'excursion', can be pretty flexible on timing. It might wait for delayed passengers, or leave early if all are already aboard (if possible, I try to offer the train and pull off > 10 mins before it's due so they have the freedom). Timekeeping along the way can be rather variable, but a traincrew might pull back a 20+ minute delay to on time return, by achieving rapid run round at Leicester (nice work!)
Now all this is, just as anywhere, subject to stuff "going wrong". Loco problems, or worse outright failure; passenger behaviour; trespassers; "operating issues"; real or imagined faults, or whatever else the real world has to offer!. At least the GCR can usually muster alternative traction if needed and get it to the problem (courtesy of the flexibility available with absolute block double track).

Regarding professional operation, i find most staff to be very focussed on running a safe and professional railway - helped by the number of staff who have or do work on the national railway, and what seems to be a good and supportive safety culture.

(Edited for spelling, grammar and clarity)

 

[Belperpete]

So the GCR has, in my experience, mostly good timekeeping, but of course it varies with issues encountered. On the whole, it's only slightly adrift, and staff seem to get fairly uncomfortable beyond a 10-15 min delay.
Of course, the GCR is blessed with the operational flexibility of double track, and the single line to Leicester is usually the limiting factor on recovery of delay (and indeed constrains the whole timetable).

The GCR used to be one of my local lines, and I agree that the platform staff do behave in a very professional manner. While timekeeping in my experience is generally good, it can suffer during galas. For example, on my last visit earlier this year, my train stood outside Loughborough for something like 25 minutes as there was no free platform, as a result I missed the EMR train that I had hoped to catch. One platform occupied by the dining train, the other by the next departure. I wasn't too bothered, but those on my train who had been intending to catch that departure were not pleased to be stuck outside until it had left.

 

[Oxalin]

For what it's worth, my experience of a few lines:

I've only been to the GCR during galas, and generally delays build up throughout the day. The last couple of times I've been have seen points or signal failures at Loughborough, resulting in queues of trains back to Rothley. It does seem that Loughborough is a bottleneck on gala days as well as Leicester. I've also noticed that the double track nature means they're less inclined to hold connections between trains. I can't say I've ever visited the GCR and left within 30 minutes of when I expected, and as a result I know leave a good hour at any railway between last heritage service and my NR connection, even when they operate from the same station.

My first visit to the SVR took place last year during their night running event. We arrived the Saturday evening to find the timetable running about an hour late. To their credit, every service that evening ran, then one round trip during the night was cancelled to bring everything back on time in the morning. Throughout the next day delays crept up, but only to about 15 minutes or so by the end of the day - quite impressive given the complex shunting arrangements.

At the Bluebell last weekend, despite running what claimed to be a gala timetable, everything kept pretty much perfectly to time all day (a couple of <5 minutes delays, but nothing impactful). The long dwells at passing loops (sometimes 10+ minutes) will certainly have helped in this regard.

 

[merry]

It does seem that Loughborough is a bottleneck on gala days as well as Leicester

Well, yes, it can be. Frankly on any day!But with more options. That depends on what shunting becomes operationally necessary. Depending on the timetable, some smart operation (with careful planning, and communication) is required at times to keep things moving, and especially on gala days. It is not unusual for outgoing and incoming trains to pass just outside the station, or a shunt to wait outside on the up while a down arrives. Especially with higher intensity service such as a Gala.
If anything goes off plan (such as the preceding departure arriving late, shunts being slow, or whatever) there is little margin for error - and nowhere to put another arrival while the diner is in the platform. Which is unfortunately a logistical necessity to get it ready for customers! TBH similar constraints on terminal capacity exist on many lines (e.g. the SVR, particularly Bridgenorth), but are perhaps a bit hidden by the single track also limiting throughput.

 

[Ksp]

I have found some lines do keep well to timetables others don't seem to be able keep to it.

Have you found this to be the case ?

Which heritage lines is best or worse at it ?

Depends on what type of rolling stock is used and also the location of the railway. For example the railway I volunteer at (Doon Valley), runs andrew barclay 0-4-0 which is reliable when it works and keeps to timetable well but there were occasions when it broke down and needed repair work. Another thing to look at is track, where our line is on a steep gradient which also affects performance of the barclay.

 

[The exile]

Is it just possible that passengers unused to train protocol think that the door has to be opened by a member of staff?

Years ago around here when all the inter-town bus services were operated by Lodekkas with manual doors you HAD to wait until the conductor opened it for you to board or alight.

Or may be they’ve been to another heritage railway and were shouted at for attempting to alight before the aged member of staff had ambled down the platform placing distinctly wobbly steps at apparently random carriage doors. The height difference was appreciably less than NR stations I frequently use where no such steps are deemed necessary.

 

[paul1609]

Or may be they’ve been to another heritage railway and were shouted at for attempting to alight before the aged member of staff had ambled down the platform placing distinctly wobbly steps at apparently random carriage doors. The height difference was appreciably less than NR stations I frequently use where no such steps are deemed necessary.

My experience as a heritage guard is that a much higher percentage of our passengers either have mobility problems or are young children than I see on the national network but steps are optional in most places.

 

[The exile]

My experience as a heritage guard is that a much higher percentage of our passengers either have mobility problems or are young children than I see on the national network but steps are optional in most places.

It’s one thing being informed that steps are available but another being told in no uncertain terms “wait for the steps”.

 

[D Williams]

It’s one thing being informed that steps are available but another being told in no uncertain terms “wait for the steps”.

During my time working on a station platform I found that the know-all trainspotter types were the most difficult to deal with. They were usually the ones who opened the doors before the train stopped.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Had around five minutes of delay all day today at the Severn Valley, but every connection was held and overall we arrived back at Kidderminster 3 minutes late, and still in plenty of time for onward connections. As it should be!

 

[duffield]

It’s one thing being informed that steps are available but another being told in no uncertain terms “wait for the steps”.

Is it possible for you to name the railway or railways where you are expected to "wait for the steps"? I'd guess the railway/s in question could hardly want this to be kept quiet if it's their official policy - quite the reverse!

I've never come across this on any of my many heritage railway visits, and I'd like to know where it applies, to avoid being shouted at on some future visit!

 

[nanstallon]

Is it possible for you to name the railway or railways where you are expected to "wait for the steps"? I'd guess the railway/s in question could hardly want this to be kept quiet if it's their official policy - quite the reverse!

I've never come across this on any of my many heritage railway visits, and I'd like to know where it applies, to avoid being shouted at on some future visit!

People don't spend their money on an expensive leisure experience to be shouted at! Nor (my apologies for going a bit OT) to have self important types in orange jackets on the platform spoiling people's photos.

 

[The exile]

Is it possible for you to name the railway or railways where you are expected to "wait for the steps"? I'd guess the railway/s in question could hardly want this to be kept quiet if it's their official policy - quite the reverse!

I've never come across this on any of my many heritage railway visits, and I'd like to know where it applies, to avoid being shouted at on some future visit!

No - it’s several years ago and hasn’t been repeated, so suspect it’s been resolved. The point I was making is that people will “learn” by experience gained elsewhere.

 

[kje7812]

Had around five minutes of delay all day today at the Severn Valley, but every connection was held and overall we arrived back at Kidderminster 3 minutes late, and still in plenty of time for onward connections. As it should be!

You were lucky there. Monday 26th was 2h25 late due to multiple lineside fires requiring two lineblocks for the fire brigade. It was a long wait whilst on duty at Kidderminster. The last train was about 2h10 late into Kidderminster.
My ticket inspector turns on Tuesday and Thursday went significantly better!

 

[railfan99]

Yes today’s busy 1630 Minehead to Bishops Lydiard steam loco and 7 coaches running about 30 mins late is regrettably another example of late running that does occur too often on the WSR …a couple days each week?.. for a variety of reasons. This delayed train thus caused the 1635 Bishops Lydiard to Minehead to be delayed at Williton (to cross 1630 MHD) by about half an hour.

When these delayed passengers recount ..the train was half hour late etc on their journey to friends etc it does nothing to encourage other people to use the WSR as a means of (costly) travel to the tourist spots of Minehead, Blue Anchor beach or Watchet Town and Harbour.
Even more adversely affected by late running are those using the Bishops Lydiard to Taunton public bus service, often with main line train connections at Taunton.

I have used the Taunton to Minehead coach to and from Bishops Lydeard station in 2022 on a weekday, and in 2023 on a Sunday.

The weekday frequencies are good; Sunday is pretty sparse: without looking it up, the latter is a bus every one and a half hours IIRC.

WSR ran on time or very close to it on both occasions so I connected from or to the bus/train I had mapped out. WSR timetables have slack as the station stops seem unhurried.

 

[Flange Squeal]

An experience on the West Somerset Railway (WSR) yesterday made me think of this thread, where going back I see the line has been singled out here before.

I arrived at Bishops Lydeard around 0920 to catch the 1015 to Minehead. I got to the booking office at around 0930 where we stood for around 20 minutes as a customer ahead had booked tickets for the 17th August instead of 17th September by mistake, and the clerk didn't know how to deal with this so spent a long time trying to get through to someone on the phone. Eventually things got moving and by 0950ish we had tickets (single/returns don't appear to be available online, just Day Rovers). The stock was still in Platform 1 with no locomotive, with constant public address (PA) announcements telling us it will be shunted over to Platform 2 shortly for us to board, but in the meantime please do visit the shop and buffet. The stock was finally brought into the platform around departure time, where we then sat for around 10-15 minutes. The PAs telling us to spend money ceased but were not replaced by any information as to when departure may be.

At Crowcombe Heathfield we sat for a further 5 minutes, departing around 20 minutes late. We did not pass anything here. At Williton we passed the other train in use as we were booked to, which departed very swiftly, but we continued to sit here for a further 15 minutes, departing around 35 minutes late. Upon arrival at Minehead, a number of passengers (not in one group together, but several separate couples/groups) had seemingly planned to connect on to the 1205 Exmoor Coaster open top bus, with our 1135 arrival time in theory giving plenty of time to achieve this, but sadly they were unable to carry out their plans.

What struck me throughout this was that while I don't know if the carriages have working PAs, the PA on the platform at Bishops Lydeard was only used to tell people to spend their money in the shop/buffet - it fell silent when the delay became apparent, when it could have been used to acknowledge the delay and apologise, perhaps giving an indication as to what was going on. The 5 min extra dwell at Crowcombe and 15 mins extra at Williton were similarly not explained, with on-board staff conducting constant ticket checks throughout the 1hr 20min 1hr 50min journey, but not a single acknowledgment or apology about the unexplained delays and sitting around. I realise these are primarily volunteer run operations aimed at leisure travel, however I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some sort of update/acknowledgement when the delay gets upwards of 30+ minutes, including 15 minutes in one location. Between the PA only being used to tell you to visit the shop/buffet, and the on-train staff I saw coming across as not interested in anything but tickets, it kind of felt like once the railway had got something out of your wallet that you were no longer of any concern to them.

In the interests of balance though, I had a different crew on my return trip who came across as the complete opposite in their persona and proved that you can't tar everyone with the same brush!

 

[lineisclear]

As it's a company limited by guarantee it's owned by the members and we have a liability of £1 if it goes bust so yes it really is mine along with all my mates.

That's a common misunderstanding. A company limited by guarantee is not "owned" by its members in the sense that they have any proprietary interest in it or its assets. They are not like shareholders of a traditonal limited company or PLC. In particular If the guarantee company folded its members could not assert ownership of its assets. If it is a charity then there will be a compulsory asset lock requiring that anything left after creditors have been paid must be transferred to another similar charity.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I got to the booking office at around 0930 where we stood for around 20 minutes as a customer ahead had booked tickets for the 17th August instead of 17th September by mistake, and the clerk didn't know how to deal with this so spent a long time trying to get through to someone on the phone.

I've had similar experiences. Arrive at the booking office queue in plenty of time for the train to find the customer at the window wants to know the full description of the area around each station to decide where to travel. On another occasion waiting behind one asking whether it would be best to go North or South (from an intermediate station) with details of the duration at terminal stations that each option would provide - and again, for details of adjoining facilities. These enquiries can take more than ten minutes.
All I wanted was a ticket; I knew exactly what I wanted and the transaction would take less than a minute.
The answer, of course, is to direct the time-consuming enquiries to the staff standing on the platform near to the booking office - usually dressed in immaculate uniform but not busy.
My decision to travel is usually made at short notice with regard to the weather and other unpredictable factors but the railways would generally prefer me to book well in advance, presumably so that, if I change my mind because of a change in those factors, I forfeit my money. They seem to discourage paying for tickets on the day at the booking office.

 

[paul1609]

I've had similar experiences. Arrive at the booking office queue in plenty of time for the train to find the customer at the window wants to know the full description of the area around each station to decide where to travel. On another occasion waiting behind one asking whether it would be best to go North or South (from an intermediate station) with details of the duration at terminal stations that each option would provide - and again, for details of adjoining facilities. These enquiries can take more than ten minutes.
All I wanted was a ticket; I knew exactly what I wanted and the transaction would take less than a minute.
The answer, of course, is to direct the time-consuming enquiries to the staff standing on the platform near to the booking office - usually dressed in immaculate uniform but not busy.
My decision to travel is usually made at short notice with regard to the weather and other unpredictable factors but the railways would generally prefer me to book well in advance, presumably so that, if I change my mind because of a change in those factors, I forfeit my money. They seem to discourage paying for tickets on the day at the booking office.

The railways are reacting to consumer demand. Some of the Narrow Gauge Lines in North Wales are at near 100% pre booking and have been at 90% plus for many years. Down in Kent we are not at that sort of levels yet but booking office takings are a fraction of what they were 10 years ago. Its like cash that is in terminal decline. Some railways are now cash free, we are lucky that we still have a branch of one of the main banks in a relatively small country town. Were that to close it would be very difficult to justify employing somebody to drive 30 miles round trips to pick up hundreds of pound coins so we can give change for a £20 note that the customer has got from an atm to pay for a £2.50 coffee.