Heritage line punctuality

[Russel]

I find heritage timetables should be treated as a rough estimate at best, on most lines I've visited.

 

[michaelh]

Exactly where on the GWSR is the interchange with National Rail?

 

[Belperpete]

On a gala, a railway will generally try to cram as many trains into the timetable as it can, with loco swaps, unusual shunting and other non-standard moves, and stock that isn't in regular service out. There is far greater chance of something going wrong, and if something does go wrong, there isn't the leeway for recovery that there normally is. Also , with almost all preserved railways being single lines, it is easy for delays to snowball as one delayed service impacts on several others, each of which then impact on others. So if I am visiting on a gala day, I therefore make allowances that there is a significantly higher chance that things are going to run late.

I would expect a railway to incorporate a reasonable amount of resilience into its standard timetables. But on a gala, the very things that I am going to see are what are inherently likely to cause the late running.

 

[30907]

Exactly where on the GWSR is the interchange with National Rail?

The post refers to "another railway" (connecting with a 2-hourly NR service) not the GWSR

 

[Merle Haggard]

Exactly where on the GWSR is the interchange with National Rail?

If you're replying to my post; 'on another railway' was the one with a mainline connection.

But it's not difficult to visit the G-W by public transport, rail then bus to the racecourse entrance and then a walk.

 

[D Williams]

Well, the 16.46 service at Blue Anchor has just arrived from Minehead 26 mins late if this is a measure of punctuality.

 

[Amlag]

Yes today’s busy 1630 Minehead to Bishops Lydiard steam loco and 7 coaches running about 30 mins late is regrettably another example of late running that does occur too often on the WSR …a couple days each week?.. for a variety of reasons. This delayed train thus caused the 1635 Bishops Lydiard to Minehead to be delayed at Williton (to cross 1630 MHD) by about half an hour.

When these delayed passengers recount ..the train was half hour late etc on their journey to friends etc it does nothing to encourage other people to use the WSR as a means of (costly) travel to the tourist spots of Minehead, Blue Anchor beach or Watchet Town and Harbour.
Even more adversely affected by late running are those using the Bishops Lydiard to Taunton public bus service, often with main line train connections at Taunton.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

As someone who can't drive and almost exclusively uses public transport to access heritage railways, I do appreciate realistic timetables and the attempts by the railway's volunteers and staff to keep to them whenever possible as it means my day tends to be a lot more relaxing.
I certainly never book Advance tickets though, and always make sure I have a plan B if my intended connection is late. (This is one of the reasons I'm vehemently against the anti walk-up railway policies being introduced by some TOCs).

As mentioned up-thread, the Severn Valley can be particularly bad for late running, especially at galas. It seems shunting, especially at Highley, always takes much longer than you think it will, Sometimes it feels just a bit too ambitious.

Others, such as the Bluebell, seem to be much better at keeping time, unless there's a major issue.
I was also impressed yesterday with the Vale of Rheidol, who managed to run a gala 3 train service with 4 different locos and still kept everything dead on time.

On railways reached by a particularly infrequent bus or train service, it can be quite stressful watching the delays mount up on your final trip, even if you've left plenty of time for the connection, especially if the staff don't seem to be demonstrating any urgency in trying to get trains dispatched and underway.
(Obviously, there may be good reasons why the train isn't going anywhere but crews standing around idly chatting can give the impression they aren't bothered).

One of the main things that is often lacking is clear information to passengers about delays, and what the plan is when things go wrong.
For example, if a train arrives late at a terminus, it's useful to know whether it is likely to be late going back out (because the loco needs servicing), or if they are going to try and get it back out on time.
That way you know whether you'll have enough time to visit the loo/gift shop/cafe, or have to stay nearby.

Also, letting passengers know whether a delay is just because you're waiting for a crossing train, or whether there's actually an infrastructure/loco problem.
Often it ends up being a case of 'Chinese whispers' between passengers along the train.

When multiple trains are running, it's also useful to know if you'll be given enough time to switch between services at stations.
ISTR complaints recently about an SVR diesel gala where a train into Kidderminster was late and the train on the opposite platform was dispatched before the incoming train had come to a halt, much to the disgust of those who wanted to change onto it!

The railways with working PA systems on trains and stations tend to fare much better at information provision than those without, and in this day and age, it's probably something worth aspiring to unless it's physically impossible without damaging heritage buildings/stock.
At the very least, staff should have access to some loud-hailers.

 

[30907]

IMO you should treat main line connections as you would anything else vital - allow for a 30-60 delay or have a Plan B.

From a heritage railway POV, the number of passengers with that sort of mainline connection is likely to be a tiny proportion of the whole, and the major consideration is likely to be "can we recover the delay reasonably quickly?"

For example, how long do you hold the 10am ex Oxenhope if the regular coach party is late? There may be as many as half-a-dozen long-distance passengers via Keighley, and of them maybe one has (unwisely IMO) an Advance for the 10.31 Leeds...

That said, sloppy operating annoys me because it looks unprofessional.

 

[james_the_xv]

I've been on several trains delayed waiting the arrival of a tour coach - for instance a couple of weeks ago at Cheltenham Racecourse. The loco. was a 'Merchant Navy' and it was ready with a full head of steam at departure time. Then standing for a further 20 or so minutes 'blowing off' exasperated the crew and wasted expensive coal - it has a big firebox. Wouldn't have been quite so bad if the coach party we waited for had displayed a sense of urgency when they eventually arrived.

This is the 'attraction' vs 'operational heritage railway' distinction - I've met tourists who believe they can delay departures because their paying for an experience, one memorable couple who asked the guard to delay the return working (timetabled 45min turnaround) so they could have lunch in the local pub... They were politely but assertively that would not be happening and handed a timetable to plan their afternoon around .

 

[Merle Haggard]

This is the 'attraction' vs 'operational heritage railway' distinction - I've met tourists who believe they can delay departures because their paying for an experience, one memorable couple who asked the guard to delay the return working (timetabled 45min turnaround) so they could have lunch in the local pub... They were politely but assertively that would not be happening and handed a timetable to plan their afternoon around .

I am sorry to say that this may be a reflection of current attitudes. Preparing, with a number of other people, in the vestibule ready to leave a heritage train at an intermediate station one finds that, as soon as the train stops, people open the door and get on - and are then annoyed because 'you're in my way!' . Of course, if they only travel by their own car, they haven't encountered this situation before.
But it's interesting (similarly to latter day slam door H.S.Ts) to watch the reaction to manual doors. Waiting behind someone who just stares out of the window when the train stops ,waiting for someone else to do something. An acquaintance who's a t.c. on the S.V. says he's seen people pushing the rubber door bump-stop on the bodyside and clearly, from their repeated and more determined action, believing that it's the door-open button

 

[01d-and]

Don't go by the "station clock" at Kidderminster SVR station - it has not worked for weeks .

 

[bramling]

I am sorry to say that this may be a reflection of current attitudes. Preparing, with a number of other people, in the vestibule ready to leave a heritage train at an intermediate station one finds that, as soon as the train stops, people open the door and get on - and are then annoyed because 'you're in my way!' . Of course, if they only travel by their own car, they haven't encountered this situation before.
But it's interesting (similarly to latter day slam door H.S.Ts) to watch the reaction to manual doors. Waiting behind someone who just stares out of the window when the train stops ,waiting for someone else to do something. An acquaintance who's a t.c. on the S.V. says he's seen people pushing the rubber door bump-stop on the bodyside and clearly, from their repeated and more determined action, believing that it's the door-open button

Situational awareness is appalling nowadays. If you watch footage from the 80s it wasn’t common to see people fail to close a slam door behind them. Contrast that with the final years of slam-door HSTs when people would open the door, alight and leave the door open behind them. Now I can understand that people may well have been less familiar with slam doors by the 2010s, but surely one would think there would at least be *some* level of thought process from supposedly mature adults?

I suspect this may well be partly behind heritage railways struggling to keep time, as they must surely be having to content with increasingly difficult user behaviour.

 

[Harpo]

That said, sloppy operating annoys me because it looks unprofessional.

I’d suggest the opposite. With volunteer staff doing safety critical roles only infrequently, I’d forgive lots of caution.

On one particular railway I have seen all of:
- RA baton raised to driver with signal ‘on’.
- Guard give RA before driver had token.
- Driver accept RA without token but stop almost immediately.
Beyond a tiny movement in the last one, others prevented movement but I feel for those dealing with that pressure point as a hobby.

Preserved lines and their volunteers work minor miracles to put on great events but I’d caution against expecting slick operating from them.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I’d suggest the opposite. With volunteer staff doing safety critical roles only infrequently, I’d forgive lots of caution.

On one particular railway I have seen all of:
- RA baton raised to driver with signal ‘on’.
- Guard give RA before driver had token.
- Driver accept RA without token but stop almost immediately.
Beyond a tiny movement in the last one, others prevented movement but I feel for those dealing with that pressure point as a hobby.

Preserved lines and their volunteers work minor miracles to put on great events but I’d caution against expecting slick operating from them.

I've witnessed this, too.

At one railway I visit regularly, the platform staff seem to like dressing up in immaculate full uniform and walking around the platform. Cosmetic appearance, excellent. Their knowledge of the safe working of trains, for instance safe despatch, seems low by contrast. Staff blow whistle and train given r.a; simultaneously, whistle alerts prospective passenger in buffet, who runs out onto the platform and boards departing train. Platform staff taken totally unaware, not alert to the possibilities. Don't even notice until they hear the door slam shut. Complete contrast to the experience on the main line.
Another example was acceptance of a train into an occupied platform. You could tell which passengers were railway people on 'busman's holiday' from their exchanged expressions of surprise

 

[43066]

On one particular railway I have seen all of:
- RA baton raised to driver with signal ‘on’.
- Guard give RA before driver had token.
- Driver accept RA without token but stop almost immediately.
Beyond a tiny movement in the last one, others prevented movement but I feel for those dealing with that pressure point as a hobby.

Of course any of those events on the mainline would result in the staff members being relieved of duty and med screened, an investigation taking place, and the person ending up on a development plan. Repeated incidents could result in job loss.

In the heritage sector is there any comeback on things like this, in terms of addressing training deficiencies and ultimately deciding the person might not be suitable for the role? There really should be.

If it’s just laughed off as “they’re only volunteers” that’s quite worrying.

 

[Belperpete]

I’d suggest the opposite. With volunteer staff doing safety critical roles only infrequently, I’d forgive lots of caution.

Preserved lines and their volunteers work minor miracles to put on great events but I’d caution against expecting slick operating from them.

There is a big difference between sloppy operation and being cautious. Staff standing around chatting or taking photos are not being cautious, they are getting distracted from their duties. Whereas someone doing their job slickly is someone who is concentrating on the job in hand and not getting distracted by other things. As such, I would say that preserved railways should certainly be aiming for slick operation from their volunteers.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be cautious, especially if they are new to the job or haven't done it in awhile, I would never complain about someone double checking what they are doing, but that is not being sloppy.

As to the guard giving the RA before the driver has been given the token, there are of course situations where that is perfectly acceptable, such as where the driver only collects the token from the signalman after starting. Also, if the guard is properly attending to the passengers, he might not see the signalman delivering the token. Or if the signalman hands the token over on the offside. I don't see that it is reasonable to expect the guard to check that the driver has the correct token. It is surely up to the driver not to accept the RA until he has the token, in those situations where he needs the token before starting.

 

[duffield]

Exactly where on the GWSR is the interchange with National Rail?

Cheltenham. It's only a short three-mile trot between the NR station and Cheltenham Racecourse!

 

[30907]

In the heritage sector is there any comeback on things like this, in terms of addressing training deficiencies and ultimately deciding the person might not be suitable for the role? There really should be.

I am not privy to HR matters but our WON/PON (weekly/periodical operating notices will flag up issues, and I can think of at least 3 cases of operating procedures being revised to avoid repetition.

If it’s just laughed off as “they’re only volunteers” that’s quite worrying.

Indeed.

PS by sloppy operating I was meaning late departures from terminus without good reason and such like. Of course I never get anything wrong

 

[paul1609]

As to the guard giving the RA before the driver has been given the token, there are of course situations where that is perfectly acceptable, such as where the driver only collects the token from the signalman after starting. Also, if the guard is properly attending to the passengers, he might not see the signalman delivering the token. Or if the signalman hands the token over on the offside. I don't see that it is reasonable to expect the guard to check that the driver has the correct token. It is surely up to the driver not to accept the RA until he has the token, in those situations where he needs the token before starting.

Indeed on my railway starting from the platform is under the control of the platform starter (signalman). The token is only required to pass the section signal which is interlocked with its release.
The only time that as a guard I'm required to see the token is where/when we are operating under no signalman token operation when either I will give the driver the token or staff or he will show it to me, or for special operations like top and tail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

Of course any of those events on the mainline would result in the staff members being relieved of duty and med screened, an investigation taking place, and the person ending up on a development plan. Repeated incidents could result in job loss.

In the heritage sector is there any comeback on things like this, in terms of addressing training deficiencies and ultimately deciding the person might not be suitable for the role? There really should be.

If it’s just laughed off as “they’re only volunteers” that’s quite worrying.

SPADs and other serious incidents are reportable to hmri on heritage Railways and the driver is relieved and an investigation instigated. We do have an arrangement for mediscreening.

 

[Belperpete]

I am not privy to HR matters but our WON/PON (weekly/periodical operating notices will flag up issues, and I can think of at least 3 cases of operating procedures being revised to avoid repetition.

Indeed.

PS by sloppy operating I was meaning late departures from terminus without good reason and such like. Of course I never get anything wrong

Depending on the incident, it might result in the relevant manager "having a quiet word", a reminder in the WON, or a separate safety notice. In extreme cases, it may result in a "please explain" and the disciplinary procedure being invoked, and someone being suspended from duty for a time. I would be concerned about any line where such incidents were just laughed off, because that is just a slippery slope.

In some cases, a train's departure may be delayed if an on time departure would only result in the train sitting around at the next passing place, waiting for a late running train coming the other way, for example. Depending on how long the delay, it may or may not be practical to let the passengers know - it can take a long time walking through a long train explaining the situation. If it is only say a 5 minute delay, you probably won't have had time to get through more than one or two coaches, and could end up delaying the train even further if you aren't on the platform ready to give the RA.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Of course any of those events on the mainline would result in the staff members being relieved of duty and med screened, an investigation taking place, and the person ending up on a development plan. Repeated incidents could result in job loss.

In the heritage sector is there any comeback on things like this, in terms of addressing training deficiencies and ultimately deciding the person might not be suitable for the role? There really should be.

The only such incident I know of was a volunteer driver who set off without the single line staff (no names no pack drill), who was duly suspended by the Managing Director. The staff was in a sense unnecessary as there was only one train in operation on the line that day, but one has to follow the rules.

Depending on the incident, it might result in the relevant manager "having a quiet word",

A very quiet word in this case, as the errant driver was the Managing Director.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

At SVR gala days, there are many people, myself included, who have based their plan for the day on changing from one train to another in a particular sequence depending on what they are particualrly interested in. For them, the order in which traisn run, and the places they pass, are more important than the actual times they run, and SVR seem to recognise this - it is very evident at Arley where a train waiting to enter the single line section will usually wait for several minutes after the arrival of a crossing train, however late, to allow people to cross over the bridge.

I have always driven there, to make the most of the day (the first train on National Rail from where I live, and the last train back, limiting how much time I would have there), but if going by rail I would have a contingency plan to abandon my Plan A schedule and get back to Kidderminster in time for the last train home.

 

[geoffk]

IMO you should treat main line connections as you would anything else vital - allow for a 30-60 delay or have a Plan B.

From a heritage railway POV, the number of passengers with that sort of mainline connection is likely to be a tiny proportion of the whole, and the major consideration is likely to be "can we recover the delay reasonably quickly?"

For example, how long do you hold the 10am ex Oxenhope if the regular coach party is late? There may be as many as half-a-dozen long-distance passengers via Keighley, and of them maybe one has (unwisely IMO) an Advance for the 10.31 Leeds...

That said, sloppy operating annoys me because it looks unprofessional.

Even worse if you miss your Northern connection at Grosmont.

 

[D Williams]

I've witnessed this, too.

At one railway I visit regularly, the platform staff seem to like dressing up in immaculate full uniform and walking around the platform. Cosmetic appearance, excellent. Their knowledge of the safe working of trains, for instance safe despatch, seems low by contrast. Staff blow whistle and train given r.a; simultaneously, whistle alerts prospective passenger in buffet, who runs out onto the platform and boards departing train. Platform staff taken totally unaware, not alert to the possibilities. Don't even notice until they hear the door slam shut. Complete contrast to the experience on the main line.
Another example was acceptance of a train into an occupied platform. You could tell which passengers were railway people on 'busman's holiday' from their exchanged expressions of surprise

It did occur to me while attending a gala weekend at a large heritage railway in the spring that a consistent theme of the day was the incompetency of the platform staff. When the guard was trying to get the train away from a crowded platform or stock was being shunted into a platform they were no help at all, being in the wrong place and looking in the wrong direction. I wonder how much training platform staff get on Heritage Railways?

 

[SquireBev]

A common feature of a lot of heritage railways does seem to be an excess of platform staff imperiously striding about in caps and waistcoats but not actually doing anything, while the sector at large complains about a lack of volunteers.

 

[xotGD]

KWVR this morning: Running 50 minutes late due to a brake problem with one of the coaches. By this afternoon, back on schedule. Nicely done.

 

[Titfield]

A common feature of a lot of heritage railways does seem to be an excess of platform staff imperiously striding about in caps and waistcoats but not actually doing anything, while the sector at large complains about a lack of volunteers.

As is well known volunteers will only volunteer for and carry out those tasks they wish to do. Any attempt to task them to areas of labour shortfall results in refusal and in some cases walking away.

 

[Harpo]

The only such incident I know of was a volunteer driver who set off without the single line staff (no names no pack drill), who was duly suspended by the Managing Director. The staff was in a sense unnecessary as there was only one train in operation on the line that day, but one has to follow the rules.

All assuming nobody ever uses the staff for an unscheduled move such as a test run. If local rules require a PICOP or agent to have the staff during possessions, there’s further potential for serious consequences.

 

[Harman]

Indeed on my railway starting from the platform is under the control of the platform starter (signalman). The token is only required to pass the section signal which is interlocked with its release.
The only time that as a guard I'm required to see the token is where/when we are operating under no signalman token operation when either I will give the driver the token or staff or he will show it to me, or for special operations like top and tail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==


SPADs and other serious incidents are reportable to hmri on heritage Railways and the driver is relieved and an investigation instigated. We do have an arrangement for mediscreening.

Tongue firmly in cheek, is it really your railway?

 

[D6130]

Next month, on our annual tour of British heritage railways, my French friend and I have a 17 minute connection between arriving at Tywyn Wharf - hopefully - at 13 02 and departing from Tywyn TfW station for Edinburgh, via Shrewsbury and Crewe, at 13 19. I hope that is doable.