Heritage line punctuality

[Vespa]

I have found some lines do keep well to timetables others don't seem to be able keep to it.

Have you found this to be the case ?

Which heritage lines is best or worse at it ?

 

[Rail Quest]

I've noticed an issue sometimes can be a mixture of traction used on diagrams. At my heritage railway, our main trains are technically timed for steam traction, given that's got the worst acceleration, but the timings don't have much slack in them for steam. So if you have a driver who's more leisurely (which makes sense for a heritage line), it's very easy to drop a couple of minutes.

Passing points for two trains also allow for knock on delays.

I've had good experiences on ELR/SVR/NYMR, they're the only other railways I've done recently. My railway is also pretty decent, usually 5 mins delays at most

 

[LUYMun]

When visiting the West Somerset Railway for the GWR HST running session earlier this month, there had been a lack of timekeeping among the two other steam trains operating that day, even though plenty of turnaround time was provided at either end. This resulted in the HST being delayed up to 10 minutes in running the two journeys.

 

[DarloRich]

I have found some lines do keep well to timetables others don't seem to be able keep to it.

Could you share with us some of the learning from your own visits? What have you found?

 

[A S Leib]

I'd imagine that some where tight connections with public transport are held have issues, such as the 11:40 from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Porthmadog (unless the timetables have changed since last September, leaving six minutes after a service from Llandudno arrives, with the arrival itself scheduled to leave two minutes after a train from Chester reaches Llandudno Junction).

 

[Halish Railway]

I'd imagine that some where tight connections with public transport are held have issues, such as the 11:40 from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Porthmadog (unless the timetables have changed since last September, leaving six minutes after a service from Llandudno arrives, with the arrival itself scheduled to leave two minutes after a train from Chester reaches Llandudno Junction).

There was a thread a while back which talked about how trains have been held at either Porthmadog or Blaenau Festiniog for rather unpunctual coach trippers to arrive.

 

[satisnek]

SVR gala timetables are usually pretty dire, except occasionally when they have a stroke of genius and come up with a particularly resilient timetable, capable of 'bouncing back' when things go wrong. However, their preference to 'try something new' each year means that nothing ever 'sticks'.

But what puzzles me is that on diesel galas, even when running significantly late, southbound departures from Bewdley still slow to a crawl so that they can thrash through the tunnel. What about those passengers who have mainline connections at Kidderminster? As a local it doesn't affect me, but I always think about those folks who, notwithstanding the luxury of four trains per hour up to Brum, may have onward connections from New Street?

 

[DanNCL]

Weardale are usually very punctual. And there’s enough slack in the timetable that if for whatever reason a journey does start a few minutes late, that time can easily be made up.

As far as I understand Weardale will wait for a late running mainline connection at Bishop Auckland now too. But don’t hold me to that!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

SVR gala timetables are usually pretty dire, except occasionally when they have a stroke of genius and come up with a particularly resilient timetable, capable of 'bouncing back' when things go wrong. However, their preference to 'try something new' each year means that nothing ever 'sticks'.

The most recent steam gala managed to operate a highly complex plan through the whole 4-day event without any significant delay whatsoever. Usually the linchpin is Highley, due to the shunting requirements, the signaller and crews need to be really on the ball.

 

[Skymonster]

This topic amuses me for a couple of reasons… OK, I volunteer on a tramway rather than a railway, but we always run a 15-minute (on the hours, the quarters and the halves) or 20-minute (hours, twenties, forties) frequency through the day. These frequencies are advised to visitors and are necessitated by the two single-line sections forming part of the route, where staffs (tokens) are used to control movements.

Each day we have a “Duty Inspector” (DI) who is in overall charge of the operation. Some of them are very good - they ensure the departures are on time as much as possible. Others seem to take a somewhat more lackadaisical attitude and would seemingly rather chat with the crews or customers than get vehicles away on time. We also have customers who seem to think we are just playing with trams and can run when we (or more accurately they) like. And insist we wait for the proverbial Aunt Mabel while she goes to the toilet, or just take their own sweet time while telling us it doesn’t matter because its not a proper tramway. Actually, an odd minute or two delay doesn’t matter too much, but more can do. But occasionally customers get rude when we tell them we can’t wait any longer and need to depart, no matter how politely we explain why and despite the next departure never being more than 15/20 minutes hence.

The crux of the timeliness issue for us is that a late departure delays another vehicle’s return due to the interaction with the single-line sections. If one leaves late, another almost inevitably has to wait somewhere part way back along the line - seemingly for no reason in some customer’s views, leaving the hapless crew to explain the delay. So most of us try our best to stick to the orchestrated plan / timetable, and if we do things usually run smoothly. Personally I really dislike being late for anything (in my own life), so I usually try to keep to time when operating vintage trams. But things can be rather frustrating sometimes, especially when DIs don’t seem to care and we have to explain to customers why we are standing on a seemingly unoccupied line going no where.

 

[bluegoblin7]

This topic amuses me for a couple of reasons… OK, I volunteer on a tramway rather than a railway, but we always run a 15-minute (on the hours, the quarters and the halves) or 20-minute (hours, twenties, forties) frequency through the day. These frequencies are advised to visitors and are necessitated by the two single-line sections forming part of the route, where staffs (tokens) are used to control movements.

Each day we have a “Duty Inspector” (DI) who is in overall charge of the operation. Some of them are very good - they ensure the departures are on time as much as possible. Others seem to take a somewhat more lackadaisical attitude and would seemingly rather chat with the crews or customers than get vehicles away on time. We also have customers who seem to think we are just playing with trams and can run when we (or more accurately they) like. And insist we wait for the proverbial Aunt Mabel while she goes to the toilet, or just take their own sweet time while telling us it doesn’t matter because its not a proper tramway. Actually, an odd minute or two delay doesn’t matter too much, but more can do. But occasionally customers get rude when we tell them we can’t wait any longer and need to depart, no matter how politely we explain why and despite the next departure never being more than 15/20 minutes hence.

The crux of the timeliness issue for us is that a late departure delays another vehicle’s return due to the interaction with the single-line sections. If one leaves late, another almost inevitably has to wait somewhere part way back along the line - seemingly for no reason in some customer’s views, leaving the hapless crew to explain the delay. So most of us try our best to stick to the orchestrated plan / timetable, and if we do things usually run smoothly. Personally I really dislike being late for anything (in my own life), so I usually try to keep to time when operating vintage trams. But things can be rather frustrating sometimes, especially when DIs don’t seem to care and we have to explain to customers why we are standing on a seemingly unoccupied line going no where.

We’ll agree to disagree. Crich is entirely suited to running as demand dictates rather than a fixed timetable. Leaving people behind for the sake of it is a nice and quick way to go out of business. “About every xx minutes” is advertised for a reason. It’s not a railway, it doesn’t need to be precise - prototypical first generation tramways didn’t run like that, so nor should the National Museum.

Also the staffs by definition aren’t tokens. If they were it would be getting into the realms of an interlocked signalling system…

 

[Skymonster]

We’ll agree to disagree. Crich is entirely suited to running as demand dictates rather than a fixed timetable. Leaving people behind for the sake of it is a nice and quick way to go out of business. “About every xx minutes” is advertised for a reason. It’s not a railway, it doesn’t need to be precise - prototypical first generation tramways didn’t run like that, so nor should the National Museum.

Also the staffs by definition aren’t tokens. If they were it would be getting into the realms of an interlocked signalling system…

You’re fine believing that until you’re stuck half way up the line, waiting for up to ten minutes with customers sometimes getting restless or disgruntled, because there’s no staff as the crew of the opposing tram are faffing about. Been there many, many times. And customers are told “every fifteen minutes” or “every twenty minutes” whatever you may think. Oh, and I only called it a token because there are plenty of people who ask and are told its a staff only to say “oh, you mean a token.” Rest assured having operated up and down the line more than 1,000 times I know what its actually called and how to use it.

 

[duffield]

SVR gala timetables are usually pretty dire, except occasionally when they have a stroke of genius and come up with a particularly resilient timetable, capable of 'bouncing back' when things go wrong. However, their preference to 'try something new' each year means that nothing ever 'sticks'.

But what puzzles me is that on diesel galas, even when running significantly late, southbound departures from Bewdley still slow to a crawl so that they can thrash through the tunnel. What about those passengers who have mainline connections at Kidderminster? As a local it doesn't affect me, but I always think about those folks who, notwithstanding the luxury of four trains per hour up to Brum, may have onward connections from New Street?

As far as connections at Kidderminster are concerned:

• According to all the previous discussions on here, most non-enthusiast types do not arrive by public transport at all
• Those non-enthusiasts who do arrive by rail at the SVR will probably be mostly from the Birmingham area, so the 4tph *will* see them through OK
• Nearly all those arriving by rail from further afield will therefore be enthusiasts of various sorts, who should be familiar enough with the vagaries of heritage railway timetables to have allowed plenty of slack in their plans (personally I'd always allow at least an hour "just in case" if I had definite plans for the return journey).

I'd guess the worst effects of lengthy delays on most non-enthusiasts would actually be kids getting fractious and hitting rush hour traffic in their car.

 

[Flange Squeal]

We’ll agree to disagree. Crich is entirely suited to running as demand dictates rather than a fixed timetable. Leaving people behind for the sake of it is a nice and quick way to go out of business. “About every xx minutes” is advertised for a reason. It’s not a railway, it doesn’t need to be precise - prototypical first generation tramways didn’t run like that, so nor should the National Museum.

You’re fine believing that until you’re stuck half way up the line, waiting for up to ten minutes with customers sometimes getting restless or disgruntled, because there’s no staff as the crew of the opposing tram are faffing about. Been there many, many times. And customers are told “every fifteen minutes” or “every twenty minutes” whatever you may think. Oh, and I only called it a token because there are plenty of people who ask and are told its a staff only to say “oh, you mean a token.” Rest assured having operated up and down the line more than 1,000 times I know what its actually called and how to use it.

Speaking as a visitor to such locations, I'm glad you try to adhere to your working timetable. If I was in a queue for something advertised as every 15 minutes but in fact ended up being a half hour wait as they'd all ended up bunched at the other end of the line, and/or my trip ended up with me sat stationary for prolonged periods in loops rather than enjoying the ride, then that would be a nice and quick way for me to pass on negative views of the attraction. The longer the gaps in service the longer the queues people have to stand in get, and therefore the worse the visitor experience. If the trains/trams are kept running efficiently and frequently then queues are kept moving, visitors are enjoying less hindered runs as stuff is running as per the service plan, and the happier I am as a visitor wanting to see and ride.

 

[StoneRoad]

There was a thread a while back which talked about how trains have been held at either Porthmadog or Blaenau Festiniog for rather unpunctual coach trippers to arrive.

Oh yeah ! Back in the day that could throw a massive wrench into the timings ... especially when lobbing said coach passengers out at Tan Y Grisiau [to save driving massive coaches into the middle of Blaenau - this was before the big car park / coach stop outside the station].

What made time-keeping somewhat harder was when we connected with Train Mawr at Minffordd and Blaenau Ffestiniog and had passengers doing the "round robin" tour of Snowdonia ...

 

[bluegoblin7]

You’re fine believing that until you’re stuck half way up the line, waiting for up to ten minutes with customers sometimes getting restless or disgruntled, because there’s no staff as the crew of the opposing tram are faffing about. Been there many, many times. And customers are told “every fifteen minutes” or “every twenty minutes” whatever you may think. Oh, and I only called it a token because there are plenty of people who ask and are told its a staff only to say “oh, you mean a token.” Rest assured having operated up and down the line more than 1,000 times I know what its actually called and how to use it.

Are they faffing about? Or are they providing good customer service? Tomato, tomato. Try talking to your restless customers rather than doing what most crews do and ignore them.

I’ve been volunteering for nearing two decades and lost track of the number of trips I’ve done. But you know that, because you know exactly who I am.

Speaking as a visitor to such locations, I'm glad you try to adhere to your working timetable. If I was in a queue for something advertised as every 15 minutes but in fact ended up being a half hour wait as they'd all ended up bunched at the other end of the line, and/or my trip ended up with me sat stationary for prolonged periods in loops rather than enjoying the ride, then that would be a nice and quick way for me to pass on negative views of the attraction. The longer the gaps in service the longer the queues people have to stand in get, and therefore the worse the visitor experience. If the trains/trams are kept running efficiently and frequently then queues are kept moving, visitors are enjoying less hindered runs as stuff is running as per the service plan, and the happier I am as a visitor wanting to see and ride.

Exactly my point. Unfortunately we have many crews who will rigidly stick to that timetable and sit waiting for time despite the fact that the tram is fully loaded. There’s no right or wrong answer, ultimately, but I come back to my point that the tramway museum is not the same as a heritage railway in so much as running to a rigid timetable. Fifteen minutes turning into twenty is less than ideal, but there’s plenty of ways of mitigating this. Unfortunately many of those who think the trams absolutely must, at pain of death, leave bang on 00/15/30/45/whatever tend to consider that visitors ride on them as an inconvenience, rather than the entire raison d’être. In all reality waiting an extra minute or two for Granny to walk the short distance from the toilets to the tram stop makes absolutely no difference; waiting for Granny to actually go to the loo is a completely different story.

 

[bramling]

Are they faffing about? Or are they providing good customer service? Tomato, tomato. Try talking to your restless customers rather than doing what most crews do and ignore them.

I’ve been volunteering for nearing two decades and lost track of the number of trips I’ve done. But you know that, because you know exactly who I am.


Exactly my point. Unfortunately we have many crews who will rigidly stick to that timetable and sit waiting for time despite the fact that the tram is fully loaded. There’s no right or wrong answer, ultimately, but I come back to my point that the tramway museum is not the same as a heritage railway in so much as running to a rigid timetable. Fifteen minutes turning into twenty is less than ideal, but there’s plenty of ways of mitigating this. Unfortunately many of those who think the trams absolutely must, at pain of death, leave bang on 00/15/30/45/whatever tend to consider that visitors ride on them as an inconvenience, rather than the entire raison d’être. In all reality waiting an extra minute or two for Granny to walk the short distance from the toilets to the tram stop makes absolutely no difference; waiting for Granny to actually go to the loo is a completely different story.

I can get it somewhere like Crich. However on preserved railways not keeping to the timetable is a real bugbear of mine. Say one plans to get off at the other end and do a walk - if the train runs 20 minutes late for whatever reason then suddenly there isn’t time to do what was planned, especially as you can’t rely on the return service being similarly late - unlike mainline trains there aren’t apps where things can be checked in real time, so you have to be back at the station just in case.

I’m reasonable enough to accept that occasionally this happening is inevitable; but waiting for a late-running coach party is a different matter entirely.

So on balance for most preserved railways I’d prefer for them to make the effort to run to time. Many railways don’t seem to try particularly hard.

 

[tram21]

tend to consider that visitors ride on them as an inconvenience, rather than the entire raison d’être.

Apologies for going slightly off topic: it's sometimes difficult to manage the fine line between individual guest experience, and the overall guest experience. I can only use Crich as an example: we have a stop around 200m from the terminus, right next to the car park& entrance called Victoria Park. Many, perhaps even the majority of the tram crew find it a deep annoyance when passengers spot a tram when they enter, and run to it when they want to leave. Ultimately it is only a short walk down the street, but for many this is a massive excitement and a great start to the day (which may turn into many if they have a great day!). Many crew do hurry these straggling passengers, as they want to have a longer break at the terminus. However, by hurrying, or even leaving these guests, many who can't walk down the street, they are worsening the guest experience for this individual. Personally, I'm always polite and don't hurry these guests, so they can start their day in the best possible way. However, if this 'delays' the tram on its arbitrary timetable (which is only there to regulate the service and single line, and often collapses), it may worsen the experience for many more, who may be waiting for the next tram for a longer time, or may have their journey extended due to waiting at the single line (the most severe example of this can double the journey time from 20 to 40 minutes, which happened last week (not due to customers being slow!), and long waiting time isn't fun, even for the most hardened of tram enthusiast!). Delays like this cause us to miss trips too, so fewer passengers get a tram ride. I would personally err on the side of the personal guest experience being more important, but I know many disagree, finding guests 'a distraction to their game of playing trams', to put it nicely.

This can be extrapolated to heritage railways, where if you wait for one last person on the platform, that will greatly improve their day, but if it causes a single line issue, which many heritage railways have, it could cause cancellations and delays if they did this for every last straggler!

 

[A S Leib]

Do any heritage railways have an explicit policy of providing replacement transport if their final train of the day is cancelled?

 

[tram21]

we always run a 15-minute (on the hours, the quarters and the halves) or 20-minute (hours, twenties, forties) frequency through the day.

Not wanting to correct you as such, but for any prospective visitors, we always aim to operate a 10 minute frequency using three trams (this is the maximum the line can accommodate due to the single line, but trams can, and do, run in pairs). This can occasionally drop down to a 15 minute frequency towards the end of the day, or for operational reasons, such as a lack of crews meaning trams have to be reduced over lunch to allow us to eat! I've never seen a 20 minute frequency used, and gaps like this will only occur during disruptions, such as when trams get stuck as staff posts, or experience faults!

 

[satisnek]

As far as connections at Kidderminster are concerned:

• According to all the previous discussions on here, most non-enthusiast types do not arrive by public transport at all
• Those non-enthusiasts who do arrive by rail at the SVR will probably be mostly from the Birmingham area, so the 4tph *will* see them through OK
• Nearly all those arriving by rail from further afield will therefore be enthusiasts of various sorts, who should be familiar enough with the vagaries of heritage railway timetables to have allowed plenty of slack in their plans (personally I'd always allow at least an hour "just in case" if I had definite plans for the return journey).

I'd guess the worst effects of lengthy delays on most non-enthusiasts would actually be kids getting fractious and hitting rush hour traffic in their car.

Indeed, but I was referring to gala timetables where the majority of visitors are enthusiasts and many reach the SVR by train. If I travel to another line's gala then I do allow some slack for the return journey, but that's mainly for any problems on NR routes. Those heritage lines I visit are not as long and complex as the SVR and I can't say that late running has ever been an issue. On the other hand, I have seen things so heavily delayed on the SVR that a train can be running just a few minutes ahead of the path of the one which is supposed to be following it! My point was that when this kind of thing happens, why doesn't the SVR run as efficiently as possible to the NR interchange (without breaking the speed limit!) rather than 'playing to the gallery'?

 

[D7666]

Unfortunately many of those who think the trams absolutely must, at pain of death, leave bang on 00/15/30/45/whatever tend to consider that visitors ride on them as an inconvenience, rather than the entire raison d’être.

TUT TUT

now you know very well this forum expects xx:15:00 xx:30:00 xx:45:00 xx:00:00 precision in exactly the same way as whether or not a locomotive is 69 ft 6.1/2 in or 69 ft 6.5/9 in long counting grease and dead flies over buffer faces, or if the exact shade of blue (or any other pigment) etc is applied, or if the windscreen wiper blade rests 1 degree from normal.

Trams are no different.

((And to wind you up I been on a - for me rare - tram bash this weekend - De Panne / Ostende / Knokke *** - never done it before - bit different to Crich ))

Back to topic, not because I have low expectancy on heritage railways, be it normal or galas, but I never plan to definitely be on train X time wise. I often plan to be on train X traction wise, but not concerned about it's time.

I do however agree with Bramling's comment about walking - I do a lot of the latter, like duration of hours walks at intermediate stops - not minutes, and that can be not easy to get right and getting to station on time 'just in case' has to apply.



*** one might argue if that is /really/ a tram line any more, but perhaps we save that for a beer and not bore them in here

 

[WAB]

I can get it somewhere like Crich. However on preserved railways not keeping to the timetable is a real bugbear of mine. Say one plans to get off at the other end and do a walk - if the train runs 20 minutes late for whatever reason then suddenly there isn’t time to do what was planned, especially as you can’t rely on the return service being similarly late - unlike mainline trains there aren’t apps where things can be checked in real time, so you have to be back at the station just in case.

I’m reasonable enough to accept that occasionally this happening is inevitable; but waiting for a late-running coach party is a different matter entirely.

So on balance for most preserved railways I’d prefer for them to make the effort to run to time. Many railways don’t seem to try particularly hard.

I imagine the Ff&WHR finds it to be a particular challenge - connections at Blaenau Ffestiniog, paths over the Cambrian at Cae Pawb, difficult conditions over the gradients, congestion at Porthmadog Harbour.

 

[xotGD]

Do any heritage railways have an explicit policy of providing replacement transport if their final train of the day is cancelled?

I've had a rail replacement taxi from Oxenhope to Keighley when things went pear shaped on the KWVR.

Very efficiently organised.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I've been on several trains delayed waiting the arrival of a tour coach - for instance a couple of weeks ago at Cheltenham Racecourse. The loco. was a 'Merchant Navy' and it was ready with a full head of steam at departure time. Then standing for a further 20 or so minutes 'blowing off' exasperated the crew and wasted expensive coal - it has a big firebox. Wouldn't have been quite so bad if the coach party we waited for had displayed a sense of urgency when they eventually arrived.

 

[Harpo]

I've been on several trains delayed waiting the arrival of a tour coach - for instance a couple of weeks ago at Cheltenham Racecourse. The loco. was a 'Merchant Navy' and it was ready with a full head of steam at departure time. Then standing for a further 20 or so minutes 'blowing off' exasperated the crew and wasted expensive coal - it has a big firebox. Wouldn't have been quite so bad if the coach party we waited for had displayed a sense of urgency when they eventually arrived.

Maybe the coach party thought they were on a leisurely Cotswolds day out on a steam train?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Maybe the coach party thought they were on a leisurely Cotswolds day out on a steam train?

Indeed, and that the train had been specially laid on for them as part of the package, and so, wouldn't be going anywhere without them. Isn't that how they're marketed?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Considering in ‘the good old days‘ there was generally a policy of holding trains for connections (and thereby delaying everyone else) you could probably argue this is an authentic and historic part of the heritage railway experience…

 

[Merle Haggard]

Maybe the coach party thought they were on a leisurely Cotswolds day out on a steam train?

As they sauntered down to their reserved coach behind the engine they might have noticed the other 4 coaches were already full. People leaning out of windows to see what the delay was.
But I get 'waiting for the coach party'; at the outer terminal of another railway after departure time we waited for the late-running coach to arrive. Passengers already on the train started to be aware of the possibility of missing their 'connection' at the other end with of the line where there was interchange with National Rail (and a 2 - hour frequency). The railway people didn't seem to be particularly concerned - 'the main line trains always run late'. But of course they weren't worried - they're got the money from those of us already on the train, they don't do 'delay-repay' and the coach party won't pay if they miss the train.
Not unusually, in the case of the G-W railway, there was another train later. The coach party can catch that - that's what everybody is used to doing if they don't turn up in time for the train (or bus, ferry, aeroplane etc.).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2024 ==

Considering in ‘the good old days‘ there was generally a policy of holding trains for connections (and thereby delaying everyone else) you could probably argue this is an authentic and historic part of the heritage railway experience…

Some heritage railways' station buffets certainly try to recreate the authentic early 1960s British Railways experience

 

[paul1609]

Do any heritage railways have an explicit policy of providing replacement transport if their final train of the day is cancelled?

At the K&ESR wed always try to get people back to their starting station as there is no alternative public transport or taxis.
If the issue is with our train we can normally Russel up a diesel loco or DMU. If the line is blocked there are local heritage buses and the local school coach operators are mostly family run concerns who are very supportive.